Template talk:IPA-all

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Template:IPA-all is permanently protected from editing, as it is a heavily used or visible template.

Substantial changes should be proposed here, and made by administrators if the proposal is uncontroversial, or has been discussed and is supported by consensus. Use {{editprotected}} to attract the attention of an administrator in such cases.
Any contributor may edit the template's documentation to add usage notes, categories or interwiki links.
See also: Template talk:Usage of IPA templates

Contents

[edit] The idea

The idea of this template is that it adds the correct font as {{IPA}} does, but also adds the tedious [[International Phonetic Alphabet|IPA]] bit as well. It also puts the /slashes/ in for you. — Chameleon 13:51, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Do we really want transcriptions like these to be phonemic? There are plenty of languages where this would be nearly useless even if one knows IPA. Japanese, for example. And a lot of rather relevant assimilations and allophones could get lost in the process.
Peter Isotalo 10:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I've changed the slashes to square brackets, as recommended in the Manual of Style, and redirected the IPA link to IPA Chart for English, which is a more useful starting point for newbies.--Chris 19:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The MoS states "The use of slashes is permitted in cases where the pronunciation represents only phonemes." Note also that slashes are widely used on Wikipedia as they are elsewhere. Indeed, if the transcription is phonemic slashes are the norm. Of course, we may also want to use square brackets. If the transcription is phonetic, then this is what you'd usually use.
So rather than its being a question of whether to use one or the other, I'd suggest that either be allowed for. Of course, this could be done by leaving the slashes or brackets out altogether but then there's the question of whether to link to International Phonetic Alphabet or to IPA Chart for English.
If it's an English phonemic transcription, then the best page to link to (at present)* would be IPA Chart for English. If, however, the transcription is phonetic, then International Phonetic Alphabet would be better because a phonetic transcription is likey to contain symbols which in English phonemic transcriptions are either used in a different way or not used at all. This will be particularly true if the phonetic transcription is of another language.
What I therefore suggest is that we should have (at least) two templates. One template should be for phonetic transcriptions, use square brackets and link to International Phonetic Alphabet. The other should be for phonemic transcriptions of English, use slashes and link to IPA Chart for English (until or unless there is a better page).
The easiest way to go about this, it seems to me, would be as follows. First have this page retain its square brackets but make it link to International Phonetic Alphabet as it used to. Second create a new template perhaps call it {{IPA-Eng}}, let it use slashes and link to IPA Chart for English (for the moment).
Now, the possibility will remain for the creation of templates specifically for phonemic transcriptions of languages other to English as need be. We might, for example, create a {{IPA-Jap}} and link it to Japanese phonology.
*Discussions at MoS (pron) Talk might lead to the creation of a standardised phonemic IPA transcription for Wikipedia. If so, then we might have a better page to link to which will probably be found in the Help namespace. Jimp 4Oct06
P.S. Okay, this template does link to International Phonetic Alphabet ... I should have checked. I've created {{IPAAusE}}. I'll get around to making others. Jimp 03:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC) I'm about to make another: {{IPAEng}}. Jimp 08:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
IPA is normally (in the dictionaries I have seen) written within square brackets "[...]", without round parenthesizes, then. So, I think, the template should be changed, or a new one created, so that
 {{IPA|name}}

expands to

 [[International Phonetic Alphabet|[name]]]

producing name within square brackets, and the whole, a link to the IPA page; like [name]. Example use: Sol [sɑl], ... This looks good, and is less cumbersome than the current indication of "IPA" everywhere. --Haberg 12:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IPA fonts added to the common style sheet

IPA fonts have been added to the style sheet at MediaWiki:Common.css. To apply them to a table, div, or other HTML element, just add class="IPA" to its attributes. More information at Template talk:IPA#Font declaration has been moved to Common.css. —Michael Z. 2005-10-4 20:47 Z

[edit] Colon

I don't think the colon is good style. The format (IPA [ðɪs]) is (IMHO) clearer and simpler than (IPA: [ðɪs]), and in no way ambiguous. --Macrakis 13:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correct treatment of wikilinks inside the transcription

Now, they are not processed as one would like them to:

[[[ʂ]]]

I suggest to change the bracket characters to HTML entities--this way it's fine:

[ʂ]

--Imz 22:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New template

I've created a new template based on this one: {{pronounced}}. It does exactly what it says on the tin, allowing you to use a more natural-sounding wording that's less confusing for people who don't know what IPA is. Something like this: "Wikipedia (pronounced [wɪkɪˈpiːdɪə])..." --Blisco 19:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why are [ ] incuded

I just discovered this template when I tried to create it. However, I did not intend to include the brackets []. That leaves the option for the user to make a choice between // and []. What do you think, is it worthwhile to create an additional one doing that? Any suggestions for its name? −Woodstone 21:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think either the square brackets should be removed or replaced by slashes. After all, narrow transcriptions are, as stated in the Phonetic transcription page, "rarely representative of all speakers of a language." And often, the transcriptions are in fact broad but enclosed in square brackets (e.g. the use of /r/ instead of /ɹ/). NisseSthlm 23:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Slashes are used to indicate phonemes. Brackets are used for phonetic transcriptions, which can be more or less broad. Though it might be appropriate in some cases, I generally don't recommend using brackets, since this is rather pointless in languages that have slightly unintuitive allophones, like Japanese. For example, sushi would technically be /su:si/, since the "sh" is considered to be an allophone of /s/ when followed by /i/. The idea that phonetic transcriptions are rarely representative of speakers is rather silly, since any notation of sounds in the forms of letters, no matter if it's IPA or not, is always some sort of compromise. And the point of using IPA in articles is to give readers a good idea of pronunciation, not to act as some kind of fragmented phonological survey.
And I must say I find these types of variant template really pointless. The time saved in not writing out "International Phonetic Alphabet" is really minimal in most cases, and the administration of all these variant templates are often far more time-consuming and easily leads to confusion for newbies.
Peter Isotalo 00:27, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
If you want slashes instead of brackets use {{IPA3}} or, if you also rather link to IPA chart for English, use {{IPAEng}} (there's also {{IPAAusE}} with slashes linking to Australian English phonology). I not convinced that these templates waste more time than they save (even though there be three of them). How much time does it take to "administer" them? By the way sushi would be /susi/ (the vowels are both short). Jimp 08:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Sigh... Template that do nothing more than replace a link or two or add piffling technicalities like slashes or brackets are nothing but editorcruft. I'm sure I don't need to explain why it's more bothersome for everyone to keep track of one or two basic versions of the same template rather than 50. The time it takes creating, categorizing, tweaking, protecting (or unprotecting) is reason enough to avoid them. There's also the problem of overly zealous and technocratic users wasting their editing time on replacing more general templates with less general ones. And that's not even including all the silly conflicts over style that they can result in...
Peter Isotalo 14:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interwiki

Please, add sl:Predloga:IPA2. Thanks a lot. --Eleassar my talk 14:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 02:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interwiki

{{editprotected}} Please, add hr:Predložak:MFA2. Thanks! --Ivan Štambuk 11:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

done. CMummert · talk 12:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language codes

Hi, there was a suggestion at Talk:International Phonetic Alphabet about modifying this template to link to IPA charts specific to each languge.

To be honest, I don't like this template because you can't choose between slashes and brackets. Neither can you choose a custom anchor (as opposed to target).

I'm not sure what language codes would make me feel.. --Kjoonlee 02:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

What are the implications of using language codes? --Jtir 17:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
If people want to link to specific charts for each language, the solution would probably involve ISO 639 language codes:
if (language code equals en) {
use(IPA chart for English);
} else if (language code equals ko) {
use(IPA chart for Korean);
} else if (language code equals fr) {
use(IPA chart for French);
} else if (language code equals ja) {
use(IPA chart for Japanese);
} else if (language code equals sv) {
use(IPA chart for Swedish);
}
Potentially difficult to maintain. --Kjoonlee 22:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] very difficult to form a sentence with with this template

I find it very difficult to form a sentence with with this template. Here is the best that I could do.

I have noticed that editors are adding ad hoc annotations that link the word "pronounced" to IPA chart for English.

These examples were found by skimming Special:Whatlinkshere/IPA_chart_for_English.

--Jtir 13:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

None of these examples use {{pronounced}}, which links to International Phonetic Alphabet and not to IPA chart for English. --Jtir 17:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interwiki

{{editprotected}} no:mal:IPA2. Nsaa 05:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. —Phil | Talk 09:11, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Upgrade to {Template doc} pattern

{{Editprotected}}

The goal is to upgrade to the Wikipedia:Template documentation pattern so that anyone can update the doc, categories and interwikis without requiring an Editprotected, while keeping the template protected.

For this, please replace the whole bottom section (non-template):

==See also==
*{{[[Template:IPA|IPA]]}}
*{{[[Template:IPA3|IPA3]]}}
[[Category:MSIE font fix templates |IPA2]]

[[de:Vorlage:IPA2]]
[[hr:Predložak:MFA2]]
[[no:mal:IPA2]]

With this copy-pasteable code:

<!--
    PLEASE DO NOT ADD DOCUMENTATION/CATEGORIES/INTERWIKIS HERE
-->
{{Template doc}}
<!--
    MAKE ADDITIONS TO THE /doc SUBPAGE INSTEAD, THANKS
-->

I have already created the Template:IPA2/doc subpage with a copy of the current doc, updated with {{Template doc page}} and refined from Category:MSIE font fix templates to Category:IPA templates (subcat of both Formatting and MSIE).

Thanks. — Komusou talk @ 10:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Y Done - Nihiltres(t.l) 13:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Refer to IPA or help:IPA

This template purposefully referred to help:IPA and not to International Phonetic Alphabet. The former gives a quick indication to the reader how to pronounce each symbnol. The the latter only describes the fundaments and principles of the system and gives some very terse tables about realisation of the symbols. Casual readers will not be able to learn from the IPA article how to pronounce the symbols. I would have reverted if the template would not have been protected. −Woodstone (talk) 15:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Done, and dropped a line on Dieter's talk page. (Sorry about the protection, Woodstone; I was worried vandals would have a field day with a template that links to thousands of articles.) kwami (talk) 20:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] non-breaking space

{{editprotected}} I think we should use a non-breaking space in this template, as having IPA: on a different line to the pronunciation looks messy...... Dendodge .. TalkHelp 15:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Y Done --CapitalR (talk) 23:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Title

{{editprotected}} The title in the span tag ("Pronunciation in IPA") doesn't work outside the double brackets. When you hover the mouse over the IPA pronunciation, "Help:IPA" is displayed. —チン和 07:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I get both. I don't know how to override the prefs for previewing the page. If you do, we can unprotect for a while. kwami (talk) 07:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Happy‑melon 17:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
The template is designed so that when you hover over it, you get the pop-up "pronunciation in IPA". However, you also get a preview of the help page the template links to. We'd like to override the page preview, so that you only see the intended message. Right, Chininazu? kwami (talk) 17:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)