Talk:Ioannis Metaxas
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[edit] John Prescott
Clicking on John Prescott's name directs you to the article on John Prescott, current deputy PM of the UK. Knight of Ashitaka 12:56, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the whole reference to John Prescott because he has nothing to do with Metaxas.
[edit] Pro-fascist website added
An anon just added a pro-fascist website to the external links. While the website itself is mostly just articles praising Metaxas, it contains approving links to much more extreme Neo-Nazi websites. I clarified this in the link description, but that should not be taken as my voting that the link belongs here. There are no other external links at the moment. Jkelly 00:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not censored. It also has no political opinion of its own, and furthermore is not responsible for the content of external sites. If a website displays a particular bias, mention that bias as a note outside the title of the link, but don't delete unless it's not a useful reference -- sources are sources, distasteful or not. - Stlemur 12:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
- Personally, I have to wonder whether you would have put up a similar disclaimer for a website with a Liberal Democratic or far-Left point of view.
- In any case, "The Metaxas Project: Inside Fascist Greece (1936-1941)" is much more than "just articles praising Metaxas". It represents the preeminent website concerning Ioannis Metaxas and the 4th of August regime and functions as a major repository of articles, speeches, documents, images, and other miscellaneous data that, for the average person, would be impossible to find on their own. There is little doubt that the website's author is partial to Ioannis Metaxas but, unless this partiality gets in the way of factual information, I don't see a problem with it. (After all, does everyone who contributes to Wikipedia have a neutral point of view on every issue that exists? Of course not. But that doesn't prevent them from being able to contribute from such a perspective.) The website itself is described as a non-partisan reappraisal of Metaxas and since the texts are gleaned from a plethora of objective sources -- including the writings of reputable historians and university professors -- rather than Fascist-only sources, I tend to agree with this assessment. Although some of the texts are indeed hagiographic, it is a fallacy to believe that they all praise Metaxas. (One of the texts listed is actually a Wikipedia article.) In reality, many of the texts (or, at least, portions of them) would actually be rejected by Greek Fascists as biased or inaccurate. Thus, I think it is a disservice to (indirectly) dismiss this source through the use of alarmist disclaimers.
- I am of the belief that historical websites should not link to any sort of political websites as such actions usually have the effect of alienating readers or giving ammunition to biased individuals to minimize the websites' significance (which is a conclusion proven here). However, the links do not represent an "approval" of their content as suggested. If one with any knowledge of Greek nationalism examined the links, he'd have to concede that they reflected a wide spectrum of political beliefs. Some of the political parties listed, for instance, are actually openly hostile to one another. (And the leader of one of those parties has actually denounced Metaxas.) As a result, I think the Greek links are listed only to represent manifestations of contemporary nationalism. (The website, after all, is about a type of nationalism.) Finally, to clarify my point, it is worth mentioning that there is another major website that links to websites of a National Socialist character. That website is called Wikipedia. However, to place a disclaimer warning of "Neo-Nazi advocation" on a website containing a link to Wikipedia would be, quite obviously, absurd. Critias 10:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
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- Regarding the very first sentence of your comment, I would only like to remind you of WP:AGF. --Michalis Famelis 12:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
The issue of this exteral link is serious because the external link in question is the sole source for many of the claims on this page as well as the "Greek Fascism" page. A large numer of assertions are utterly unsopportee except for by the author of that website, adn several neo-azi sites. The are to say the least at considerable variance with the main body of peer-reviewed work on the Metaxas period.
For example the paragraph added by user "Stlemur" with text begining speculative theories say Metaxas had been assassinated by the British is again, neo-Nazi revsionist history made up in whole cloth yet copied verbatim onto wikipedia.
this is the google result of the text: Ioannis Metaxas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Speculative theories say Metaxas had been assassinated by the British secret intelligence service to be replaced with the weaker, more manageable Korizis, ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joannis_Metaxas - 19k - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF] The Fourth of August: An Insight Study on Fascist Greece File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML Speculative theories say Metaxas had been assassinated By The British secret. intelligence Service to be replaced with The weaker, more manageable Koryzis, ... www.metaxas-project.com/pdf/markessinis.pdf - Supplemental Result - Similar pages
Encyclopedia: Greek fascism Speculative theories say Metaxas had been assassinated by the British secret intelligence Service to be replaced with the weaker, More manageable Koryzis, ... www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Greek-fascism - 39k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
The second google hit is the source of the information here an well as on the wikipedia "Greek fascism" page (which for some time was almost entirely copied verbatim from the neo-nazi site to wiklipdia.)
I am excising the conspiracy theory because not only of the lack of supporting information, but it not even a conspiracy theory with any believers.CW65CW65 03:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- Agreed. The only reason that was there was because my first passes through the article were just cleanup. - Stlemur 07:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
- That's not true. Speculation regarding a possible assassination by the British did, in fact, exist. Although not widely asserted today, due to the lack of any concrete evidence and the uncertainties of various events in the final moments of Metaxas' life, rumours of such an attempt were notable enough to be noted by Vatikiotis in "Popular Autocracy in Greece, 1936-41: A Political Biography of General Ioannis Metaxas" (published in 1998) who writes: "According to his younger daughter, Mrs Nana Foka, Metxas died at the family home, the modest villa on Danglis Street, Kifissia, at 5.30 a.m. (the official bulletin of the attending physicians put the time of death at 6.00 a.m.) on the morning of Tuesday, 29 January 1941. Cause of death, as reported in the official death certificate and the official medical bulletin, was septicaemia after a streptococcus infection. Typically, his death was shrouded in mystery, including a myth of his assassination. [...] His personal physician Yeroulanos attended him when Dr N. Georgopoulos, an otorhenolaryngologist (ear, nose and throat specialist), lanced the [throat] abscess. But Metaxas suffered an instestinal haemorrhage the following day and was given a blood transfusion. By then urea had set in and Metaxas was given yet another blood transfusion. One suspects kidney failure at this point and the imminent risk of heart failure, especially as he was put on an oxygen mask. Mrs Nana Foka told me in November 1996 that a soldier of the British Armed Forces from a nearby British Army depot arrived with an oxygen cylinder on Tuesday, 29 January. Metaxas was already dying when he was connected to the oxygen cylinder, and the British mechanic went to sleep on the adjoining bed. After Metaxas was pronounced dead, the British soldier took the oxygen cylinder and left. One suspects that it is this particular action of the British which gave rise to the rumours about the killing of Metaxas by poisoning or other means. But it is all speculation" (page 214).
- In "Ιωάννης Μεταξάς" ("Ioannis Metaxas") by Konstantinos Plevris (first published in 1975 but still, arguably, the most comprehensive and informative biography in existence) the first section of chapter 7 ("Σχόλια διά τόν 'θάνατον" του Μεταξά" or "Remarks regarding the 'death' of Metaxas") deals entirely with the mysterious rumours regarding his death. From individuals he spoke to (who believed that the British were somehow involved in his death) he identifies a number of different rumours. He notes that "Usually they denounce 'the English doctor' that gave Metaxas an injection. [...] My interlocutors, though they agree about the English presence, disagree about their action [in the assassination]. Some say that [the British] brought [tainted] oxygen, some that Metaxas was given a [fatal] injection. Some were even found who [believed] that one doctor gave the injection and another, collaborating with an English nurse, brought a [tainted] cylinder of oxygen, and so forth" (pages 349-350). Plevris writes that Maniadakis (the Minister of Public Security during Metaxas' 4th of August regime) was of the belief that Metaxas died due to medical negligence. In his private discussion with Maniadakis he records him as stating, "Had we had Metaxas in [even] a third rate hospital he'd have lived" (page 350). Plevris also writes, "Maniadakis, even in his final days when I would visit him [at the hospital] would say to me: 'The doctors were at fault and the English benefited from it'" (page 360). British motivations for Metaxas' demise are noted as are the peculiar actions that took place while Metaxas was dying. In addition, Plevris analyzes several contradictory reports of Metaxas' death which include the account of Loukia Metaxas (Ioannis Metaxas' eldest daughter). As for his own personal impression of all the evidence, Plevris writes that, if their was indeed improper treatment administered to Metaxas, it was certainly accidental. He writes, "There is no way I can believe that 10 Greek doctors, amongst which even son-in-law E. Fokas was present, confederated to assassinate Metaxas" (page 350) and, in his final conclusion, reiterates his position that there was no assassination masterminded by the British: "As strange as the circumstances of Metaxas' 'death' were, Ι [...] cannot accuse the English" (page 361).
- In short, there is a general concensus among historians who have researched the issue in depth (by, among other things, speaking with those closest to Metaxas) that no assassination was carried out. However, to completely deny that the speculation of an assassination ever existed is difficult to do given that historians (as demonstrated above) have felt a need to address the issue -- even if only casually. Critias 04:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Picture
- So, we need a new image of Gen. Metaxas. Any ideas? - Stlemur 07:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Metaxas+Fascism
The Wiki Greek Fascism article has been changed to 4th of August Regime, and supports that Metaxas was not a Fascist and that his regime was "quasi-fascist" at best. Shouldn't this be taken into account here? As an extension of my first question, why is Metaxas on the list of fascists?
And seriously guys, get some proper sources. I'm not a socialist or anything, but using a fascist site that would love to cite Metaxas as one of their own as the main (and only) source is ridiculous. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.202.22.206 (talk • contribs) .
[edit] To Stlemur
I saw the message you had sent. I would like to know what is the problem with a few facts that I added? The E.O.N. ? and Goebbels visit to Greece in 1936? These are facts not myths. What is the problem? Kitso
- The EON and Goebbels information is redundant with 4th of August Regime; the rest, however, introduced a strong pro-Metaxas bias (referring to this revision. You've also added the word "Greek" redundantly or disputably to this and a number of other articles. --Stlemur 19:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I am only adding a few facts that anyone can look up. E.O.N. was the main youth group. And there are quite a few pictures of Metaxas with Goebbels. What is so Un-neutral about this? Also, I added the word Greek to certain Byzantine leaders (mainly Belisarius and Scanderbeg) not because I would like to "Make them" Greek but in order to make it clear to certain readers where Byzantium (basically) was. Most people cannot even name one Byzantine ruler. I am not saying that all of Byzantium was Greek but most of it was (and you cannot disagree with that). I do not think anyone will disagree with Belisarius being of Greek blood really. Scanderbeg (Georgos Kastriotis) on the other hand is more complex. It is not fair to only depict him as an Albanian hero when in actuality he fought against Muslims (Being Ottomans or converted Albanians).Older historical sources have his name as being Kastriotis (Kastro is a Greek word). The symnbol of the double headed eagle he adopted from the Byzantine one in Constantinople. He corresponded with Paleologos often. And you know what language that was in. That is the reason why I contest Scanderbeg really being just Albanian (and Serbian). He was adopted as their hero when Albanian was created as a nation. Older records never show him to be "Just" an Albanian hero. You talk about neutrality- but where is it in the Scanderbeg article?
- If you have sources backing that up, then cite them and discuss the changes on the talk page for that article. It may well be true, but it has to be verifiable and it's likely that someone might have their own argument for why he should be depicted as entirely Albanian. --Stlemur 19:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I can find sources that back my statements. I always back up to what I say. There are quite a few books out there that supports my argument. As for Metaxas, I had many relatives who lived during his time. Some supported him and some did not. But my grandfather remembered the day Goebbels came to Athens and the whole Greek Phalanx (EON) paraded. Meaning, yes he did witness this at first hand. There are also quite a few videos out there that have Metaxas (you might be interested in- and I strongly recommend)and the E.O.N.
I do find it hard to believe that there is no bias in any of these articles on this wikipedia site since one person always controls what is written.
