Talk:Inverclyde Line

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Contents 1 Vote for Deletion 2 Turnstiles 2.1 Moved from talk 2.2 Restart discussion here 2.3 Proposal 3 Good Article Nomination 4 Good Article Review

[edit] Vote for Deletion

This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 02:54, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Turnstiles

Moved from article:

In the late1970s and 1980s stations on the line were equipped with automatic ticket barriers, similar to those used on the London Underground. Single tickets, return tickets and season tickets could be purchased. The ticket barriers were turnstiles. Above the barriers were red and green illuminated entry/no entry signs, plus an additional sign which was illuminated when a child fare ticket had been used.

Having moved to Gourock in 1980 and used the line a fair bit, I've no recollection of such turnstiles: they'd be completely impractical at Gourock, Fort Matilda and Greenock Central for starters. Evidence is needed of where and when such turnstiles were added and removed. If you really want photo evidence that they're not here, that can be supplied. ..dave souza, talk 20:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

They were installed on the line, without question. That leaves two questions, when were they installed and when were they removed?

I moved to Paisley during Easter (April) 1979 and I don't think they were installed at that time, as the season ticket was green card about 1" x 2.5"; but they were installed soon after that. I commuted five days per week down the line from Gilmour Street until about 1987/1988 and they were installed and used in that period. I'm certain they were on all stations between Glasgow Central and Bishopton, and I suspect all stations Langbank to Greenock Central. I can't answer for Fort Matilda and beyond.

I moved to Bishopton in 1988, but left in 1991 so I'm happy to accept that they were not present after about 1988. Several bolt holes were visible in the floor at Gilmour Street until the station was refurbished, as the barriers were relocated several times. Glasgow Central and Bishoton were also refurbished, so there is no evidence at these stations. I'm not sure when they were removed, possibly about the time the trains were painted Strathclyde Orange/mat black. Someone else mentioned APTIS and the train ticket inspectors had PORTIS, so the barriers probably went about the time APTIS/PORTIS was installed - but I cannot put a date to it. Gimour Street booking office was refurbished at that time and has also been refurbished since.

Returning to your comment about photographic evidence for 1980 onwards, what stations are you offering to provide evidence for? I'm adament they were installed on all stations from Glasgow Central to Bishopton and possibly Langbank & Greenock Central. Pyrotec 21:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from talk

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dave_souza":

When I started at Paisley College in October 1980 they were not present at Gilmour Street or at Platforms 9 to 13 at Glasgow Central. I believe the system started to be taken out of use when the Transcard and Raillink family of tickets came into use around the time of the opening of the Argyle Line. In fact it was possibly the refurbishment of the Argyle Street entrance and installation of escalators that resulted in the removal of the automatic barriers to platforms 12 and 13.

Stewart 22:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I commuted from Easter 1979 to about 1988 so I know they were present sometime during that period. I've tracked down a definitive reference to APTIS/PORTIS: project authorised in 1983 and introduced in 1986. So they would have been removed, at the latest by 1986.

Incidently I walked passed Paisley College every morning to get to the train at Gilmour Street from about Oct 1979 to 1987/1988 when I moved to Bishopton. I assume you did a 4-year degree, so are you saying they were not present between Oct 1980 and when you graduated?

The old BR season ticket (1 month, 3 month, 12 months) did not suit me, as I only travelled 5 days per week and they were costed on a 7-day week. These machines did singles, returns, 5 or 10 journey tickets, but I used to buy somethink like 25 or 30 or 50 journey tickets as it saved money versus smaller demoninations. Perhaps these were Transcards - I can't remember. I never used the Argyle line until after 2000.

Incidently do you have a picture of the etched glass windows on the central island platforms at Gilmour Street? I half remember them as G&PJR, which if so would make them possibly original 1840's windows. Would go great in the wikipedia Glasgow & Paisley Joint Railway articlePyrotec 23:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

APTIS/PORTIS are described in Gourvish, Terry (2002). British Rail 1974-97: from Integration to Privatisation. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-926909-2, on pages 225, 226, 311 and references on page 594. He states (p225) that the origins of the project lay in the search of Automatic Revenue Collection or ARC, which began in 1970 with an experiment in Scotland, proceeded in rather leisurely fashion, and embraced a pilot scheme in the London area by the end of the decade. Ref 237 (P225) states "The Scottish experiment involved 'stored ride' ticketing on the Glasgow-Gourock-Weymess Bay line. See documents in Chief Executive's files, AN156/449, PRO: RE Minutes, 12 February and 22 October 1979. Campbell was particularly sceptical about the ARC pilot scheme on Southern Region. He told Reid, 'this seems to be comming a dodgier project almost every time I look at it': Cambell-Reid, 4 July 1979, AN156/449, PRO."

Not there yet, but I will prove that they were there - even better if I can find a Gourock photograph in my collection.

I suggest you check Anthony cfc 's page, he states on his home page 4th Year at St.Aloysius College, Glasgow, i.e. he was not born during this period, so much for objective evidence!!!!! Pyrotec 08:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you've got that wrong by a fair few years :) anthonycfc ^[talk] 04:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Restart discussion here

I think we have agreement that the ticket barriers aren't here now, and the paragraph should make that clear. The photos I've got to hand are recent, will upload a couple of Greenock Central for that article. The search for evidence is welcome, ticket barriers are the sort of thing I'm quite capable of forgetting. However Gourock would have been problematic as the footpath from the town centre to the ferries runs alongside platform 1: for a lesser distance when the timber quayside was still here, but as I recall it still went along the platform for a distance. The railway timetable info is wrong as there are 4 trains an hour Glasgow to Port Glasgow up till 8pm, then 3 afterwards: will adjust that. Good luck with finding citations! ..dave souza, talk 09:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

A thought about the yellow tickets. Was there ever an overlap between the re-opening of the Glasgow Subway in 1979, that had ticket gates operated by narrow format yellow tickets (when you bought your Transcard or Rail-link card it had a tear-off portion to exchange for a gate ticket to use on the Underground), and the yellow ticket gates on the Inverclyde line?

It may also be useful to find the press releaase / or a magazine article (Modern Railways??) that introduced the ticket barriers.

There was a lot of experimental ticketing going on at the time (late 1970's/early 1980's) on the lines out of Glasgow Central. Langside has a prototype white card over printed system (different to that used by Inter-City); there was the predecessor to the APTIS was trialled (the return tickets were double the length of the current tickets and were perforated).

I need to investigate my library of old magazines, but that will take some time.

-- Stewart 09:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Gourvish (Page 594) has the references: PRO: BRB; Railnews: Railway Gazette International: Modern Railways. I can post them here or send them to you, but not today.Pyrotec 16:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I do agree there needs to be a Wikipedia article on BR tickets, going from Edmundson's; Ultimatics; Yellow Barrier Tickets; Inter City Card tickets; APTIS/PORTIS (and their prototypes); and the various PTE tickets and other experimental tickets. Oh how I wish I had kept all my ticket collection from the last 30 years.

So far all I have found is a summer 1983 reference that announces the introduction of APTIS in Summer 1984.

The references quoted would help in producing an excellent article.

-- Stewart 18:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Found a reference to the commencement..

Glagow Stations; Colin Johnstone & John R Hulme (ISBN 0 7153 7569 5); published 1979; pp47 & 48

...while since 1973 all stations on the Glasgow-Gourock-Wemyss Bay line have operated yellow tickets on the stored-journey system. Unlike traditional season tickets, these are transfereable and are checked and collected automatically. To quote a recent press release:

the ticket is inserted into a slot in the barrier equipment, the ticket is 'read' and if valid the turnstile for entry is released and the ticket released to the passenger. At the same time the number of journeys remaining are shown on an indiciator on top of the barrier so that every passenger knows exactly how many more times they may use that particular ticket

Must concede that I had to go through a barrier (showing my Rail-link ticket to a ticket inspector) when I started at Paisley College in 1980, however by the time I graduated in March 1986, Gilmour Street had become an open station and you could exit straight out into County Square by the doors at the bottom of the stairs (next to John Menzies).

-- Stewart 13:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Your Johnstone & Hulme reference agrees with my memory. I bought 1, 2, 10 or 25 journey “yellow” tickets; the turnstile read the number in code from the magnetic strip, displayed it on the turnstile, deducted one and rewrote the new number on the magnetic strip. Sometimes this process did not work, but it was easy to climb over & BR knew that so they put a ticket collector there at peak travel times to discourage it!!

I had 25 journey Gilmour St - Bishopton tickets and I often bought Paisley - Glasgow returns. I also did central Glasgow to Hillhead return journeys on the Underground, but I'm not aware of through ticketing from Paisley - if there was I never used it. The yellow tickets and the turnstiles were the same. But possibly did not have the journey counter display. I think that one problem on through ticketing was BR ran the blue & later orange/black trains as agents for Strathclyde PTE and journeys were subject to BR Passenger Conditions of Carriage. The new Underground was either, at the time Glasgow District or Strathclyde PTE run. The old underground (before my time) was Glasgow Corporation Transport - hence I'm not sure who ran the new Underground by then - but Strathclyde PTE "owned it".

PORTIS/APTIS lead to open stations, both Gilmour St and Glasgow Central had new ticket offices build. Central changed a lot.

Just in case!!! APTIS was the fixed machines used by the ticket clerks in booking offices. Used playing card tickets with round corners. Tickets were pre-printed with orange BR Conditions of Travel on white, with journey and date dot-matrix printed by APTIS. A “return” journey was two tickets: 1 out and 1 return. Credit card receipts came out on "tissue paper"; and seat reservations (Intercity) on green(?) playing cards. PORTIS was carried on trains, clippie-style, used pre-printed orange-yellow paper, with blue-back thermal print. Tickets were toilet paper sized but half width, strange perforations: toilet paper style in the middle long oblong holes at each end (for the drive motor?). Also two tickets for a return journey – 1 out & 1 return

I half remember APTIS did season tickets. Was there not some problem with wife's using husband's season ticket so they later introduced photo I.D? I had a photo ID season ticket for the Glasgow Garden Festival, and I think I had to add a Photo ID for the rail season ticket at the same time (both went in a BR plastic credit-card-folder). I may have it still, but it probably was thrown out during the millennium throw out.

For APTIS Gourvish gives – ‘’Railnews’’ January 1983, March 1985, April 1986. ‘’Railway Gazette International’’ February 1983 page 82. ‘’Modern Railways’’, May 1984 pp 256-7, June 1989, pp 294- 295; and I think a book – Simmons & Biddle, ‘’Companion’’.

I didn’t knowingly photograph ticket barriers, but I did photograph trains, stations and lines, so I may have some interior station photographs with ticket barriers. I think I have APT and half-APTs at Shields Road Depot, so I need to find them as well. Loft hunting, but not today. Pyrotec 14:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

I've taken the liberty or clarifying the history a bit and making that a separate section. If all are content, the episode of the ticket barriers could be added to that section. The Current operation section could then include a brief explanation of the current system with its mix of manned and unmanned stations as well as ticket collectors who issue tickets on the train. Hope that suits, ...dave souza, talk 22:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I like your changes. Agreed. It might be possible for an APTIS/PORTIS article and a separate experimental ARC ticket system article - if the data for the later is recoverable - to be produced; and then to link them into this article.

Stations, or at least platforms, were closed before APTIS was introduced: under BR bylaws you needed a train ticket or platform tickets to be there, but I'm not sure that rural stations had platform tickets. APTIS/PORTIS was a Thatcher plan to get guards off trains (sack them) by having one-man EMU & DMU trains and to introduce Open stations. There was a Strathclyde Manning Agreement (I'm not sure I'm able to write about it) to retrain all the guards and give them PORTIS machines. They became on-board ticket sellers/inspectors and mobile flying ticket inspectors. London region went the other way: force people to buy tickets in advance, or if you catch them force them to buy a full price ticket, possibly for the whole lenght of the line, if they could not prove which station they got one; and hit them with a Bylaw fine for not having a ticket. One-man train disputes caused much strike action in the 1980s, SPTE, I think was only hit for one day.

The ticketting / open access system changed again under Railtrack / Network rail. The above is only intended to refer to BR days. Pyrotec 14:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Nomination Good morning (GMT time); I have reviewed this article on 18 March 2007 04:22 (UTC) in accordance with the Good Article (GA) criteria. There are seven main criteria that the article must comply with to pass: Well-written: Pass Factually accurate: Pass Broad: Pass Neutrally written: Pass Stable: Pass Well-referenced: Pass Images: Pass I have concluded that, in my opinion, the article has passed all categories and I therefore award it GA status. Congratulations to the lead editors, and keep up the excellent work! Kindest regards, anthonycfc [talk] 04:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Review

This article has been brought to review for possible delisting by LuciferMorgan. The discussion can be found here. Regards, LaraLove^T/_C 06:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Issues were corrected. Article will retain GA. LaraLove^T/_C 17:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)