Talk:Invasion of Goa

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[edit] Title

The title Operation Vijay seemed to me a bit too Indian-POV as only the Indian name was used for the article--TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

True.... but the term "Portuguese-Indian War" was very rarely been used to describe the conflict. Most Goans refer to it as "Goa Liberation". I believe that after the 1974 carnations revolt, even the Portuguese began to use that term. 220.226.29.21 (talk) 16:26, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
No, the Portuguese do not call it "Goa Liberation". Since 1757, by a Royal Decree, the native people from Goa, and from the other Portuguese Indian colonies, were full Portuguese citizens with full Portuguese citizenship rights,that is, with the same rights as the Portuguese people from Portugal. Portugal is known for being the only country to have given full citizen rights to the inhabitants of an eastern colony. In 1952, all colonies from Portugal were made overseas provinces and made part of main land Portugal, they were no longer considered colonies or treated as such. Goa was not a colony but a province. And after the conflict it did not become independent like Timor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.47.66 (talk) 21:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

In fact, they were colonies, even if the Portuguese governement tried to disguise it... The Ogre (talk) 13:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd beg to differ Mr. 89.180.47.66! you may be right when you say that the Portuguese theoretically gave Goans the same rights as full Portuguese citizens. But this was on paper only. In reality the Portuguese still referred to Goans as 'pretos' or 'blacks' - a derogatory term for colonial natives handed down the generations. In practice you could see how equal the whites were with their pretos when you found that almost all senior government officials were European in origin.

My great grandfather was the first native goan to rise to the post of deputy director of customs in Portuguese Goa- and it sure wasnt easy for him to get there.

Another telling sign of this 'equality' in the Portuguese Empire was the fact that the Portuguese never dared to raise an army of Goans to defend Goa. Almost all fighting units in Goa were European. Maybe they just didn't trust the idea of native Goan Portuguese citizens defending overseas Portuguese soil. Tigerassault (talk) 10:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please stick to the topic

I would request users not to get involved in discussing their viewpoints and emotions but stick to the article. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 13:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

I read somewhere in the guidelines of wikipedia that the titles of the articles should be consensual, among other things. This title, especially the part of the liberation it's not consensual, and no matter what we may think, we know that it's not neutral. I don't support changing it to invasion either. I don't know what should be done too, but the title as it is, it's not right. I've just made a quick search on google in English and in Portuguese (didn't search in Hindi because i don't understand), and these are the results: liberation of goa (pt) - 103.000 results, invasion of goa (pt) - 13.700 results, liberation of goa (en) - 151.000 results and invasion of goa (en) - 369.000 results. These are rough numbers and much is probably unrelated but these numbers should be probably well consulted and taken into account. Maybe i'm not bringing nothing new that hasn't been discussed yet, but i didn't see nothing here on this talk page.

Best regards --Bluedenimtalk 19:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Blue Denim. I went further and investigated the cream of those hundred thousand odd results from Google. The top 20 results 'Liberation of Goa' threw up all related to the 1961 battle. 'Invasion of Goa' threw up 1 result for the 1954 protest march into Goa, 2 for the 1510 Portuguese Invasion of Goa, 2 for the hippy invasion of Goa, and 2 for techno groups 'Alien Invasion Goa' and 'Goa Sound Invasion'.

'Portuguese-Indian War' is a silly name because (1) no one declared war on anyone, and (2) no one calls the battle by the name. I would rather call it the 'Invasion of Goa'. Or maybe to be more specific, '1961 Invasion of Goa'. Tigerassault (talk) 16:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Title: Invasion of Goa???

Sure , a search for "Invasion of Goa" in Google gives a much higher count, but here are some of the gems included in this count

  1. "The Psy Invasion project has started on October 2006 with the mission to keep everyone informed specially in the UK about Psychedelic World including: ... "
  2. The Portuguese Invasion. image : indpride.com ... In 1510, the Portuguese fleet under Afonso Albuquerque landed in Goa, only to be driven out by Adil Shah ...
  3. The people of Goa were not consulted before, after or during the invasion. We seek only like-minded Goans to actively participate in ensuring the freedom of ...www.freegoa.com/ - 12k - Cached - Similar pages (Btw this a site run by disgruntled people who still dream of a "reconquitsa")
  4. "colaco.netTGF: The hippie invasion of Goa took place AFTER 1961. Is that so!?! I would like to request TGF to visit the following website ... "
  5. "Goa Sound Invasion Part ll on TechnoratiGoa Sound Invasion Part ll. http://youtube.com/watch?v=_jV5HC4gUls. all other videos are @ http://www.veoh.com/channels/goa-sound-invasion to watch "the hole ..."
  6. "Lost in Goa beachesVasco da Gama was the one who spearheaded the Portuguese invasion of Goa. Christians and Hindus seem to co-exist peacefully. The famous Mangesh Temple, ... "
  7. "Gogoa.net Complete information about Goa(Goa Flights, Goa Hotels ...The Portuguese invasion of Goa resulted in the spread of Christianity .About 26 per cent of the population today constitutes of Christians. ... "

Me thinks you should do a rethink about renaming it to "Invasion of Goa" based soleley on the google count--Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 04:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

popular term in media/literature is generally "Liberation of Goa.", so I would second changing name to "Liberation of Goa" as per wikipedia policies. Desione (talk)

[edit] Legality of Goa under Indian rule

Some gentleman has been trying repeatedly to insert comments that the UN mandated a plebiscate in Goa which was not honoured by the Indians. Please understand that the UN resolution on Goa which was proposed on 18th December 1961, was vetoed by the Soviet Union.

If you insist that Goa annexation is still debated by international law experts, please post a link to a document that supports your statement. Also, please place your statement in the right context and with a neutral point of view. 220.226.35.104 (talk) 09:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I Agree!! We won't though, because there aren't any. This is just a case of anti-Indian POV. The Ogre (talk) 14:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
??? Desione (talk) 08:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 03:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Invasion of Goa → Liberation of Goa — The term "Liberation of Goa" is a more popular and better used in both common usage and print media. Hence, as per wikipedia policies, the title of this page should be "Liberation of Goa". Please read wikipedia policies regarding picking a name for an article before commenting (see WP:COMMONNAME —Desione (talk) 05:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Support A search on google books website indicates that "Liberation of Goa" gets 642 hits; while as, Invasion of Goa gets 472 hits. A search on government of India websites gives 78 hits for Liberation of Goa[1] and 0 hits for Invasion of Goa [2] Desione (talk) 05:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose. There is no question that this is the POV of the Government of India; that is the argument against using it. (They may be correct sub specie aeternitatis; but that's not a viewpoint WP is qualified to take.) If this were definitely greatest usage, so be it; but how about Annexation? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Again this would be WP:OR. Our goal here is not to assign a new name to historical events, but to refer to them by their most common and well recognized name (see WP:COMMONNAME). In this case (irrespective of views of government of india no matter how significant that view might be or that of common individuals like us no matter how insignificant those views might be) the actual commonly recognized English name for this event is Liberation of Goa Desione (talk) 18:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't know enough about the history of the page to have an opinion. But I will note that if you do a Google Scholar binary search (more rigorous than Google Books or plain old Google), here's what you get:
Scholarly sources seem to prefer "invasion." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
PS Apparently, this debate has been going on for quite some time.  :) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
In rep to Fowler Agreed that the count for invasion will always be hiigher than that for liberation , but I hope you have read this point I have written earlier:Talk:Invasion of Goa#Title: Invasion of Goa??? above. The invasion count also includes the count for "Portuguese invasion" and you are assuming that the count returned for invasion is necessarily retured for "indian invasion of Goa". Clearly, this assumption is inocrrect --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 04:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Including 1961 in the searches makes invade slightly less common that liberate, but invasion is still more common than liberation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
You beat me to it. Since I have the stats, here they are:
Thus "invade/invasion" and "annex/annexation" together have 370+1560 =1,930 sources; "liberate/liberation" have 1,150 sourcesFowler&fowler«Talk» 19:21, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Please don't add numbers for different terms together. Thats flawed logic. Desione (talk) 09:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

As per WP:COMMONNAME, we need to focus on what the common name for this event his. This should help:

  • Complete google search on: +"Invasion of Goa" +1961 gives 1870 hits [3]
  • Complete google search on: +"Liberation of Goa" +1961 givens 2820 hits [4]

This proves beyond a reasonable doubt that most common well recognized name for this event (see WP:COMMONNAME) is "Liberation of Goa". Desione (talk) 09:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose "Liberation" is quite an evident Indian pov. There was hardly anything to be "liberated" in Goa, it had been a constituent part of the Kingdom of Portugal for centuries, long before India came to be. It was thus an invasion by the very meaning of that term, as foreign land was raided and taken by force. Húsönd 14:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment So it was a part of Portugal even though Portugal was thousands of miles away and had occupied Goa as a coloniser??? --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 12:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

  • I would say that the gov't of India wouldn't call it an invasion, so it's not exactly an unbiased source. 70.55.84.13 (talk) 06:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment This move for "Invasion of Goa" was initiated by a Portuguese Wikipedian who apperantly cannot disagree with his country's stance any more than an Indian cannot disagree with his countrys stated viewpoint. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 04:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
A search on government of India websites gives 78 hits for Liberation of Goa[1] and 0 hits for Invasion of Goa [2] is a biased representation, is what I meant. All that proves is that "Liberation of Goa" is a valid term to refer to this event, not that it is unbiased. 70.55.84.13 (talk) 05:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It does not appear to be a clearcut liberation, as Goa was not part of a country called India, or it's predecessor state previous to Portuguese occupation, and post-Indian-takeover, does not appear to have been made an independant state, so it wasn't exactly liberated, it was annexed. 70.55.84.13 (talk) 06:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it is for us to interpret legality or illegality of the event or decide whether an event is more appropriately called this or that (see WP:OR. All we need to do (as per wikipedia policies) is to figure out what is the most common English name for this event. Please see WP:COMMONNAME. In this case, the most common english name is "Liberation of Goa." Thanks Desione (talk) 06:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
And I never made any interpretations of legality on the event. Nothing in what I said has anything to do with legality. And "annex~" "invad~" "liberat~" whatever Goa are terms associated with the event, which I did nothing to invent, including "annexation" GOOGLE SCHOLAR - annexation 70.55.84.13 (talk) 05:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Disagree Yes this still was an Invasion and should remain as a Invasion, even though India had the right to take Goa, it still was an Invasion--Rockybiggs (talk) 22:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:OR, but please note that armies don't always invade, they liberate as well. Please review definition of invasion [5] and liberation [6] Desione (talk) 07:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it is fairly summoned up already, the Invasion title should remain and reference in the intro to Liberation is clearly stated. This is enough.
This was a Military Invasion; this doesn’t mean it was a slur on India because the word Invasion is mentioned. Does this mean the D-Day Invasion of Europe is a slur on the Allies, I think not. It is what it is--Rockybiggs (talk) 09:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
You are the only one here who is thinking about "Slur on India" or whether the action was right or wrong based on whatever assumptions or sense of morality that you may be applying. Again, please try to get away from things like legality, illegality, slur, right, wrong, etc. My point is simple: The most common English name for this event is Liberation of Goa and hence the article should be titled Liberation of Goa. Can you show evidence which would prove that the most common name for this event is not "Liberation of Goa"? Thank you Desione (talk) 09:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
And please do not confuse "Invasion of Goa" with "Portuguese Invasion of Goa" or "Hippy invasion of Goa" etc as has been pointed out earlier. Desione (talk) 09:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Question. Why hasn't the article been titled "Portuguese-Indian War" as it is called in the lead? I don't know anything about the article history but right now it seems like one POV vs another. Why not use the neutral approach if that is acceptable to both sides? Ham Pastrami (talk) 21:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The only time I heard of "Portuguese-Indian War" was when I read this article. Apparently, the name "Portuguese-Indian War" seems like a WP:OR. As per (WP:COMMONNAME), the title of the article should be the most common and well recognized English name. In this case, the most common and well recognized English name is "Liberation of Goa." Desione (talk) 06:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.