Talk:Interval (music)

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[edit] Archived discussion

Archive

[edit] Archiving, and Diatonic and chromatic now established

I have now added a lot of recent material to the archive. A new article has been set up, partly to deal with issues of terminology that have arisen here . Discussion about application of the terms diatonic and chromatic, as applied to intervals or to anything else, is best conducted in the context of that article. I suggest that we now discontinue any such general debate here (and at Talk:Diatonic scale, Talk:Diminished seventh, etc.), and confine it to Talk:Diatonic and chromatic. – Noetica♬ Talk 02:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[A recent question, rescued from the archive (– Noetica♬ Talk 02:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)):]

I thought an interval was perfect because it used notes that appear only once in the harmonic series or am I misunderstanding something? 68.18.179.218 02:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

No, anonymous. The overtones that are responsible for the perfect intervals (in one theory of such intervals) recur at every octave above their first occurrence. (So, in fact, do all overtones.) They may be called perfect for the reason the article gives (and this is connected with their occurrence early in the overtone series); or there may be other reasons.
– Noetica♬♩ Talk 07:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The intervals table down from C, the image has a mistake, "F5" instead of "P5" i think most people looking at it would realize the mistake, but to some who are not used to this information it may be confusing.

Good point, anonymous. Unfortunately it's a graphic, so it can't be edited within the article itself. Perhaps the editor who made the image will now fix it.
– Noetica♬♩ Talk 07:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Worldwide view of intervals

How does this article lack a worldwide view? What views should be added? Hyacinth 03:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Usage in chords

Chord:

minor 7th is "m7", not "7". "7" is for dominant 7th. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.71.98.132 (talk) 15:25, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

No, the interval of a minor 7th as part of a chord is indicated by 7 alone. If there is additionally a minor 3rd, the symbol "m" is added as well. −Woodstone 16:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Tritone is a Diatonic Interval?

In the process of creating the Diatonic and chromatic article, we have found that the tritone is not held to be diatonic in some sources. Should we make the article reflect our research?--Roivas 16:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

A tritone is a musical interval in one sense of the word, but not in others. What I mean is that a tritone is sounded by two notes separated by an interval of six semitones (which are themselves intervals in yet another sense of the word!), a conceptualization which differs from that of thirds, fourths, octaves, etc.
The latter are based, in one sense, on the notes (or degrees) of the diatonic scale, and in another, by an abstraction related to the positions of notes (represented by the familiar symbols seen in sheet music) on a staff.
Two intervals are said to be "enharmonic" (IIRC) if they sound the same, but have different names. For example, playing a B and the F above it gives the sound of a tritone, as does C-flat with the E-sharp above it. They sound alike and are played alike, but the former is a diminished fifth, while the latter is a doubly-augmented third. They are written and thought of differently.
Piano technicians refer to middle C as "C-4" or "key (number) 40." If you play key 39 ("B-3", without considering how it is written) and key 45 ("F-4"), you get the sound of a tritone. That combination of keys can also be called a tritone.
Note that 45 minus 39 is six. Because the interval separating the pitches is six semitones, it is a tritone, in one sense of the word. But to call it a diminished fifth or augmented fourth is technically a mistake, albeit a common one, without a richer context. D021317c 03:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

My concern has nothing to do with the confusion of terms you mention (diminished fifth, augmented fourth, or tritone) or what you regard a tritone to be in the abstract sense.

There are easy-to-find sources specifying that the tritone is not a diatonic interval.

Goetschius' The Theory and Practice of Tone-Relations has this definition of DIATONIC INTERVALS: 16. All those intervals which agree with the natural major scale (i.e., where the upper tone corresponds exactly to the scale-step of the lower tone as tonic), are called natural or diatonic intervals.

This musicological text refutes your claim that the tritone is diatonic, no matter what your reasoning is.--Roivas (talk) 16:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Promotional links

Please see WP:LINKS before re-adding a link intended to promote a website or product. aruffo 05:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I am aware of the way things work with WP links, and I feel mine meets the requirements. It's a free site, no ads, and it gathers useful, scientific data from the users, check it out. Is that not enough? --68.229.94.217 18:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Not usually, no. Read "Links normally to be avoided" and the section immediately following. You also may want to look at WP:NOT for notability guidelines. aruffo 19:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What an interval is

Ask any musician or piano technician to play an interval on the piano, and there's no question of what you mean. Ask for a fifth, a minor third, an augmented unison, a doubly-diminished third, no problem. A minor seventeenth might require some thinking, but everybody knows what it is.

(As for "distances," I thought they were measured in parsecs, nanometers, and the like. Asking for the "distance" of an interval makes no sense to me. I opine that what is meant by "distance" herein is just another sense of the word "interval," one which is measurable in semitones, cents, or octaves, but not in inches.)

To me, an interval, as used in music theory, has an upper note and a lower note, depending on their positions on the musical staff, not on their pitches. In the case of the diminished unison, the upper note is actually lower in pitch ("flatter") than the lower one. In the case of the diminished second, they coincide. The only exception is the perfect unison, in which (conceptually) two notes coincide, and neither is upper nor lower.

Unraveling the complexities of music vocabulary will surely present a challenge! D021317c 03:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Complexities indeed, D. This article is badly written, self-contradictory, and a nest of disputes just waiting to be activated. Otherwise I'd be doing something to fix it! Is the augmented fifth diatonic? Yes, if you count the harmonic and ascending melodic minor scales among diatonic scales; no, if you don't; but hang on: yes, because it's listed in the table at the end of the article as a diatonic interval [Altered since I wrote that.–⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica!T– 11:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)]. Because of this sort of entrenched confusion I decided not to persist in editing the Augean Article (here and elsewhere: see Diminished seventh, for example). I initiated Diatonic and chromatic instead. Take a look, sometime.
– Noetica♬♩ Talk 05:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quality of Page?

I'm not a musical theory buff, but a Diminished fourth is the same as a major third (NOT technically I'm sure but that's not the point.) Either way it's not in a harmonic minor scale.... Am I missing something?? The third is lowered a half step and 7th raised a half step. An "diminished fourth" is actually in the MAJOR scale? This article (and many music articles) need more defining of terms and less contradictions. It's hard to take these articles as authoritative when there are glaring inaccuracies even to an amateur player.

I appreciate all the contributions, I just wish people like me who are learning and trusting these articles felt more confident of their integrity. --NotDazedbutConfused (talk) 01:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Well ND, I agree that this article is of questionable quality. There are several competing approaches to music theory used in Wikipedia, and together these yield a disgraceful confusion – disheartening and unhelpful to the student. I do not contribute to this page, because there would be too many disputes if I did.
But the statement about the diminished fourth is accurate. Consider the notes B and E♭, and the interval B–E♭. This must be a fourth of some sort, yes? Ignoring flats and sharps, just count the letters: B, C, D, E. Four notes. Now, B–E and B♭–E♭ are perfect fourths; but the interval B–E♭ is one semitone short of a perfect fourth. That makes it a diminished fourth. We are interested in intervals between any pair of notes in a scale, not just intervals involving the keynote. The notes B and E♭ occur in the scale C harmonic minor (...C–D–E♭–F–G–A♭–B–C–D–E♭–F–G...), so the diminished fourth that they make up also occurs in C harmonic minor. (Its inversion E♭–B also occurs in C harmonic minor. E–B and E♭–B♭ are perfect fifths; E♭–B is one semitone larger than either of those, so it is an augmented fifth.)
Yes, in an important sense a diminished fourth is "the same as" a major third (B–D♯, for example): it spans the same number of semitones. But these intervals fit into the conventional scales of Western music theory quite differently. To explain any of this from the ground up so that anyone could follow would take a great deal of time and patience. But I hope what I have said will help.
–⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica!T– 11:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes that does help a lot. I follow the argument, I still don't understand the reason for the different notation (way of looking at it) I guess. I always just think of the root that I'm looking at and then the scale up from there, but thanks for the clarification. I understand that it could be tedious and take a great deal of time and patience to address this all from the ground up, but I feel wikipedia should be that thorough or at least have references to something that thorough. Do you know any site where this can be learned or added to wiki? I have no formal (school) music education and don't have the time to enroll, but am interested. Thanks. NotDazedbutConfused (talk) 23:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

It's actually explained on Wikipedia, but the explanation is scattered (most of it appears at enharmonic, albeit in somewhat technical language). This is as simple as I can get it: the major third and diminished fourth happen to be given the same width in the tuning system commonly used today (twelve-tone equal temperament). But in other tuning systems, such as quarter-comma meantone (which was the most common system for the early Baroque), they are not the same: the diminished fourth is actually a little wider. Since the system of naming pitches and intervals was developed at that time, it preserves the distinction, even though in performance it no longer exists. Sort of like how written English preserves spelling distinctions between words that used to sound different but are now homonyms. I hope this helps. — Gwalla | Talk 22:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC)