Talk:Internet Explorer

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[edit] stability

i take back what i said (168476867 [1], 3.3 criticism/stability), sorry alllllot! for that unsourced comment. by Juggernaut0102 (talk) 09:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] OS/2

I just edited the table, OS/2 can run the 16 bit Windows 3.1 versions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.79.120.199 (talk) 14:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Why aren't IE 4 and 5 listed this way? Josh (talk | contribs) 23:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
IE4 & 5 should realy be seporated in the table because IE4 dosn't run in OS X, only threw OS classic (9) running inside OS X and then we might as well list every thing that can run inside virtual pc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AJenbo (talk • contribs) 07:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Standalone" Internet Explorer

This section doesn't make much sense. Why do people want multiple versions of IE? Perhaps if that was explained, then it would make a lot more sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.208.225 (talk) 05:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Developers need it to test on multiple versions. Not such an issue with Safari and FF because they have had reasonable standards compliance for years. It helps the development cycle; dev in FF, check in IE8 (aaaaah!), check in FF check in IE8 (aah!), check in FF check in IE8, check in IE7(aaaaaaaaaaaaaah!), and so it goes on. Macgruder (talk) 06:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IE Mobile/IE for Mac

Why is Internet Explorer Mobile mentioned as a separate application while Internet Explorer for Mac is not? Internet Explorer for Mac does for example not use Trident. Helpsloose (talk) 23:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

IE 4 for Mac was the same but IE 5 wasn't. --AJenbo (talk) 20:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IE7 XP and Vista version

I would like to bring attention to the fact that the version of Internet Explorer 7 for XP is not the same as the one for Vista. XP cannot ever have a version of IE7 with .6000 (it it is reserved for Vista/Server 2008). There are differences between the two versions for XP and Vista, which can be found in the Wikipedia article on Internet Explorer 7. Stephenchou0722 04:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About Acid2 compliance

According to Håkon Wium Lie, inventor of cascading style sheets:

In the middle of all this joy and excitement, there is a concern. It seems that IE8 will not display Acid2 correctly by default. Instead of following established conventions for how to switch between quirks and standards mode, it seems that Microsoft plans to introduce a new opt-in scheme based on the <meta> tag. And, since we cannot change the Acid2 test at this stage, it will not trigger IE8 standards mode. This issue must be addressed if IE8 is to be considered to pass the test. [2]

This statement is quite explicit, but is reinforced by other statements about IE8's new "opt in" standards mode. —Remember the dot (talk) 01:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Internet Explorer had the "standards mode" since IE6 and has always been "opt in" since inception. Not just IE, it is present in all other browsers as well, where also it is opt-in. And unless opted in, NONE of the browsers will display the test correctly. The opting in is controlled by the declaration of a doctype. The HTML 4.01 doctype ACID2 page uses triggers standards mode, thus it is already opting in.
The only thing of contention here is Hachamovitch's use of the phrase "IE8 standards mode" (never was IE8's new "opt in" standards mode ever mentioned by the official sources in public) in the blog entry. Due to Microsoft's previous attempt at the W3C to get another rendering mode, people have become confused as whether the phrase means regular standards mode in IE (in that case no problem) or whether a new mode. Since no thrid party can have anymore knowledge (sans for, maybe, MS partners) than we have, we should not iterate their less-than-informed theoretizing as canon.
From the quote you gave, "it seems that" is the keyword. It is his "understanding" that things are so. But nowhere I have seen do they (MS) state so. (I spent more than five hours hunting around in the W3C mailing lists to see if they ever said anything with the meta tag). At least, provide a ref to let anyone verify the meta tag stuff? Or provide refs independently confirming the fact (not those which repeat his words)? Or provide the source of his suspicion (so that we can let them make the inference for themselves rather than have HWL make it for them)? So, lets hold the criticism back till we know for sure they need the criticism. --soum talk 03:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Before we continue this debate, please go watch Chris Wilson's "IE Past, Present, and Future" presentation for yourself: [3] [4]
About 37 minutes and 40 seconds through the presentation, you will see Chris Wilson, Internet Explorer Platform Architect, say "The adoption of any such opt-in switch today is zero." Perhaps the opt-in mechanism will be a <meta> tag, perhaps it will be an HTML comment, perhaps something else entirely. But whatever it is, the Acid2 test does not have it. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

According to the MVP FAQ here, IE8 DOES introduce another (a third) "IE8 standards mode". However, I don't see how it means IE8 "cannot be considered to pass the Acid2" as stated in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.128.181.109 (talk) 04:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

(@Xpclient) Any evidence Abhishek has access to the inner working of the IE team and that he is not under an NDA ro reveal such information and that he is singing the official tune and this is not just a friend-of-a-friend-told-me rumor? --soum talk 11:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
"This Q&A guidance is taken from the MVPannounce mail I received from my MVP lead". As a Microsoft Most Valuable Professional, yes, he does have access to such information. —Remember the dot (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You know what an MVP is? S/he is an independent and recognized expert on one or more products. They need not be on MS payroll. And are no way automatically a part of any MS product team. Just by being an MVP you do NOT gain access to such information. And my question is still unanswered: How the hell does he publicize information that is still under NDA (if it were not under NDA it would have come directly from the official sources or the developers). And I asked about Anand, not Vasudev. Vasudev mentions his source, Anand does not. Since he is not officially known to be a part of IE8 project, he does not consitute a source reliable enough for citation. --soum talk 00:36, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Because Acid2 does not trigger IE8 standards mode. Acid2 assumes that the browser does not require a special trigger in order to render pages correctly. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The video was made long before any design was finalized. That no way means a new rendering mode HAS BEEN implemented. We have no definite proof of that. Saying they did it just because they were thinking of an implementation is theoretizing at best. Even if they DID implement it, where is the evidence that the HTML 4.01 Strict doctype (the one the test uses) does not already trigger it? Without any concrete evidence that, I will not support stating it as canon.--soum talk 10:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You needn't look any further than Microsoft's own statements to see that IE8 with the default settings does not pass Acid2:
  • IE8 now renders the “Acid2 Face” correctly in IE8 standards mode. [5]
  • IE8 now correctly renders the Acid2 smiley face in IE8 standards mode [6]
  • What is “IE8 standards mode”? Developers can now write sites based on standards, insert a flag that tells IE to render in IE8 standards mode, and IE will then switch its rendering engine to use this new mode...For compatibility purposes IE8’s rendering engine defaults to “quirks” or “standards” mode. Site developers will need to insert a new opt-in flag to request the page to render using “IE8 standards mode.” [7]
  • The adoption of any such opt-in switch today is zero. [8]
(emphasis mine)
Really, though, the burden of proof is on you. Show me a source that says IE8 renders Acid2 correctly without being in IE8 standards mode. —Remember the dot (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Where is the proof that IE8 standards mode will not be triggered by ACID2? There is none whatsoever. Even if we believe the MVP mail, it does NOT say the anything about triggering IE8 standards mode. Where does it say in there that the IE8 standards mode won't be triggered by ACID2? Extrapolation on our parts isn't allowed.
If you bring up burden of proof, I invoke the policy: The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. It will be on you to prove that IE8 DOES NOT render Acid2 test by default. Not that IE8 PROBABLY OES NOT. But I would not like to do that. The point is still clouded and no definite answer is given yet. So, it should be stated that there is lot of conjecture at this point. State it as canon, and I will oppose. I am sorry to say that if this is not resolved soon, I will have to report the Vasudev citation to WP:RS/N and call an Request for Comment for this entire thing. --soum talk 00:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
As you revert, please be aware of the three-revert rule. In your last edit summary, you stated acid2 was designed s.t. stanards support => passing the test, not the other way round. to quote an article I read somewhere "passing the test does not mean this, this and this is true"
You are thinking of "Everything that Acid2 tests is specified in a Web standard, but not all Web standards are tested. Acid2 does not guarantee conformance with any specification." [9] This is a valid point, but in light of this, I'm puzzled by your recent rewording: "IE8 supports [x, y, and z]...As a result, an internal buld of IE8 passes the Acid2 test in IE8 standards mode."
We know IE8 passes Acid2 in IE8 standards mode. I will concede that we can't say anything about IE8's compliance with the default settings. However, we know nothing about what standards, exactly, it supports. All we know is that in IE8 standards mode, it passes, which only indicates partial support for the web standards tested. We can't say for sure that it includes complete and bug-free support for standards x, y, and z. —Remember the dot (talk) 01:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, but I am well aware of 3RR (Could you please point where I revert without discussion except for the one where you took advantage of me being on a mobile to rob me of the chance of a timely reply?) Anyways, hasn't the level of support for [x, y, and z] been enough to pass the test? So whats the problem? And if you are okay with the change in the last line (that there is a IF in saying that ie8 does not trigger ie8sm) can we consider that chapter closed? --soum talk 01:38, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
The article currently states that IE8 supports x, y, and z. IE8 supports x, y, and z, in IE8 standards mode, well enough to pass Acid2. This does not mean that IE8 supports them completely or correctly, as the article currently implies.
The sentence "However, if the ACID2 test does not by default trigger IE8 standards mode, IE8 cannot be considered to truly pass the Acid2 test" is misleading. We already know from Chris Wilson that zero web pages on the web today trigger IE8 standards mode, including the Acid2 page. A better wording would be "However, if IE8 does not pass Acid2 with the default settings, IE8 cannot be considered to truly pass the Acid2 test." —Remember the dot (talk) 02:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
In other words, unless Microsoft changes the default standards mode to be more standards-compliant, IE8 will not truly pass Acid2. —Remember the dot (talk) 02:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
(de-indent) "We already know from Chris Wilson that zero web pages on the web today trigger IE8 standards mode, including the Acid2 page" is NOT true. That was the quote one year back, when the design wasn't frozen. As such we cannot say that nothing has changed for sure. Triggering ie8sm hasn't been discussed in public. So, transitional doctype triggering standards mode and strict doctype ie8 standards mode is as possible as both triggering regular standards mode. We cannot hold their plans as canonical evidence of their actions: thats my point. And "unless Microsoft changes the default standards mode to be more standards-compliant, IE8 will not truly pass Acid2" is not true either. If the Acid2 test (irrespective of the url its served from) triggers the ie8 standards mode without any change, that will be enough. But still, I would support your construct. As for standards support, will saying "Microsoft claims IE8 supports..." be enough for you? --soum talk 02:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I found another Microsoft statement you may be interested in. Go to IE 8: On the Path to Web Standards Compliance - ACID 2 Test Pass Complete and jump to 19 minutes and 15 seconds through the video. You will hear Alex Mogilevsky, a member of the IE team, point at a picture of a failed Acid2 test and state:
"The video in the bottom is a IE7 version of smiley face...What you're looking at is actually IE8. It is what it looks currently in IE8 and it will look exactly like this when we ship IE8 because we are not breaking any compatibility, and this is a compatible mode of IE8. And, uh, most of the web relies on particular behavior including particular incorrect behavior, so the incorrect behavior will still be there unless the new content wants IE to be in standards-compliant mode, and then they will ask us, and then we will show perfectly standard picture."
I don't know how you can interpret this any other way than that IE8 will not pass Acid2 with the default settings. Web sites must "ask" for IE8 standards mode, or else they will get the noncompliant IE7 compatibility mode. And since Microsoft is "not breaking any compatibility", it must be that no page on the web today triggers IE8 standards mode, including the Acid2 test page. —Remember the dot (talk) 03:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter that we don't know what triggers standard mode. We just know that Acid2 doesn't, as demonstarted about 19 minutes into [10]. (The debug version passes, but the other version doesn't, and they actually say that the shipping version will render it that way (fail).) - Josh (talk | contribs) 05:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
You're being way too strong with your wording, dot. Nobody, not even the IE team knows what the final solution will be for separating IE7's standards mode from IE8. According to Chris Wilson, right now it's a META tag, but he makes it clear that this is still under review and that they are in the process of gathering feedback. You really should take that into consideration before writing authoritative prose about what IE8 is going to do. -/- Warren 07:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what's going to trigger IE8 standards mode. We know the Acid2 test doesn't, and we have a member of the IE8 team who explicitly said that the Acid2 test would be broken in the final release. I already removed the <meta> tag speculation. —Remember the dot (talk) 17:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
ok i concede. bt this quote shud b in article.soum talk 05:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
The debate over whether IE8 will display pages in its IE8 standards mode by default or not is moot when it comes to the Acid2 test. The videos of the development UI (see screencap [11]) clearly show a scrollbar which isn't allowed by the test. Thus IE8 does not currently pass Acid2 whether in IE8 standards mode or not. I made an edit to the article which explained this, but it was reverted back to a version which says IE8 passes. Hopefully the explanation here will be enough to have other editors set things right. GreyWyvern (talk) 20:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Acid2 Secn Break

1. The code that was shown is just brewed and full of debug constructs and assertions. 2. The formal test period to dig up bugs hasn't started yet. 3. Its only a frame or two worth of screencaps. 4. MS isn't talking about IE8. How can you be so authoritative with such little information?
And if you are basing your conclusion on this shot, how do you know that the scrollbar is not of the part of the chrome of the hosting form but of the rendering engine? May be the form contains other controls below the trident area, and probably the scroll bar is due to that. Its best not to be authoritative. --soum talk 02:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why an icon not a shortcut on the desktop?

Why is Internet Explorer represented by an icon on the desktop not a shortcut? I am a rare Windows user, and I know that I can safely trash a shortcut but don't have the same confidence with an icon as it suggests I'm trashing the actual app. I suspect that MS don't want users removing it from the desktop but I have no evidence to back this up. Other apps use a shortcut afaik; why not IE ?Macgruder (talk) 06:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

It should be OK. I get this when I try to delete the icon: "Are you sure you want to delete the Internet Explorer icon from your desktop? To restore it later, go to Display in Control Panel." An alternative method is, in XP, to go to Control Panel -> Display -> Desktop -> Customize Desktop -> Uncheck "Internet Explorer". -- RattleMan 06:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The icon is a reference in the registry and not an actual file, the benifit is that if you right click it you get the internet explore options rathere then the default shourtcut options. removing it is compleatly fine. --AJenbo (talk) 21:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IE 8 on chart

We can't include IE 8 on the OS compatability chart because anything we write there would be either Unknown or original research. - Josh (talk | contribs) 20:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Ah, I see. We should be able to place information on it, however, after MIX08. --Titan602 (talk) 16:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Standards support

Do the two "Standards support" (features vs. criticisms) seem contradictory, the first seemingly apologetic, stating "minor implementation gaps" whereas the latter indicates that there are also non-minor issues? Cnj (talk) 23:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The first states "Internet Explorer, using the Trident layout engine, almost fully supports HTML 4.01, CSS Level 1, XML 1.0 and DOM Level 1, with minor implementation gaps. It partially supports CSS Level 2 and DOM Level 2, with major implementation gaps and conformance issues." The minor gaps are in the oldest and most basic standards. The major gaps are in the newer (that is, from 1998-2000) Level 2 standards. Those are the non-minor issues referred to in the second. It doesn't look like there's any contradiction to me. -- Schapel (talk) 23:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
"with minor implementation gaps. "...... "minor" issues? OK, on reading Schapel's response to Cnj I can see the logic here, yeah... Saying that it has minor issues is not an outright denial that it has major issues. Issues are issues though. I would have thought that very old and fundamental flaws would be considered "major" - any issue with CSS1 implementation is a major issue!! Sure, all browsers have issues with that, so maybe it's not even worth mention, but the implication that Internet Explorer doesn't have a massive number of major issues in standards support is practically dishonest. No offense but the implication is easily contendable. Sure, literally "minor implementation gaps" true, but the implication is still way off - so I suggest that it be either omitted (don't like that idea very much, but I'm a webmaster and therefore strongly biased so I can't touch it) or better, that is should be more clear and less subjective in its treatment. Why divide the flaws up and mention minor flaws alone in one part? Major flaws are certainly present in great numbers, and are far more notable than minor ones. Again, I'm really biased on this one and I admit it now to my discredit, so please, to whoever wrote that tiny phrase in there, don't take offense, I agree with it like I said. I can provide a bunch of reputable sources documenting the existence of a few hundred bugs (many of them critical and causing intolerable rendering errors or stability problems and application crashes and hangs) in Internet Explorer seven (with test cases of course), if the need be, thus establishing firmly that no public release of Internet Explorer to date has even usable support for any standards... (no, it's not original research) 125.236.211.165 (talk) 14:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I guess a gab is more total absence of functions rathere then wrong functions, that would alow them to have minor gaps but major flaws.--AJenbo (talk) 15:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IE8 Version Targeting

From a Web Developer's standpoint, the version targeting being implemented in IE8 is a very important issue. I would suggest adding either a section regarding Version Targeting (and not just a subsection of IE8, since this is theoretically going to continue on for all further versions of IE). I personally would say this is an important enough issue to merit its own article, but I'll leave that up to others better versed in Wikipedia's policies. dimo414 (talk) 20:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What's the difference between Mozilla and FireFox?

When listed on a table (chart) of the most popular web browsers based on the total usage share, Mozilla and Firefox were not together on that list. Why? If anybody knows the answer to this question, I'd just be glad to know it, too. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.85.91 (talk) 02:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

See Mozilla Firefox#History. —Remember the dot (talk) 05:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Did Microsoft ever charge money for IE ???

Was IE always given away for free by MS prior to it being incorporated into Windows? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.243.154 (talk) 05:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

V1.0 was first part of Microsoft Plus! for Windows 95. It was just one added utility in that package. You can find actual dates somewhere, but it was available for free either immediately after, or very soon after, the Windows 95 launch (August 24, 1995). By the first service release of Win95 (December 1995), it was free as part of the OS. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
Also, there were some legal issues to that. Some of the code was licensed from the Mosaic foundation on a per-unit royalty. Microsoft released IE for download before a flat license fee with Mosaic was negotiated. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
Many computer magazines (I'm talking about glossy paper versions) had CD-ROMs with freeware, shareware and demos; Internet Explorer was often a regular part. Was IE free? Well the consumers had to buy the magazine or the Microsoft Plus! disc to obtain it but at the bookseller’s there would be stacks of free CD-ROMs with the full versions of IE on. Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 13:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Was this before or after Microsoft said IE would be free? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
It was before IE 4.0 was incorporated in Windows 98, but I don't know when or if Microsoft announced IE as freeware, sorry. Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 18:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IE9

Where the hell is the mention of IE9? I have seen the source - the softpedia article. The author makes it clear: "Of course, it is all speculation on my part". Since when do we insert canonical info based on speculation by some person who is not even affiliated with the project? Again look into the interview that he mentioned. Skip to 00:03:05 (or somewhere around that). The exact quotes is "So you guys busted open Triton? Triton... thats the codename for IE9. I'm just kidding.". It is pretty clear that the mention of Triton was a mistake, and the IE9 part was, by his own admittance, a joke. How the hell can it be held as a canonical proof of IE9. As for the IE8 Readiness Toolkit document, it says "If there ever is IE9..." (or something like that) - it couldn't be any more vague! Of course any example on forward compatibility has to be given with some future event as point of reference. That does not make it canonical, as for the purposes of the example, the reference can as well be imaginary.

Of course, unless judgement day arrives in the near future, there will be an IE9. But twisting jokes and tongue-in-cheek comments and presenting them as the vision of future document is definitely not verifiable. And presenting speculation as facts is definitely original research, not to mention crystal balling. None of that belongs here. The future development section should be removed, until some concrete evidence is presented. That some editor might know better does not matter, we are not reliable sources. Unless it can be verified by any damn person, IE9 does not exist - nor is any future development going on - as far as wikipedia articles are concerned. --soum talk 17:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed it. We have nothing to say about IE9 at this point. —Remember the dot (talk) 17:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll admit I was too hasty here, I missed the this is all speculation part of that source. Sorry guys. Digita (talk)

[edit] Internet Explorer 7 bug

I just found a nice little bug in Internet Explorer 7. If you have a dropdown list control with only one option, clicking on that dropdown list twice crashes IE. It is 100% reproducible every time. 195.197.240.134 (talk) 15:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't reproduce it on Internet Explorer 7.0.6001.18000 on Windows Vista. Perhaps there's something messed up on your computer? —Remember the dot (talk) 03:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Acid2

It seems odd that Acid2 doesn't get a mention other than saying that improvements in IE8 will mean that it passes. Given the trouble people have had with non-compliance with standards, it seems odd that such an important test only gets one mention.
I also find it odd that there isn't a section on criticisms, given how much has been given to IE over the years. Searching for "critic" brings up only 8 results, many of which are using one word twice for the same point.—[semicolons]— 16:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Windows Internet Explorer

MS used this name for the Internet Explorer 4 executable file in 1997.

If you have a computer with IE 4.0 installed, search for the "Iexplore.exe" file, and then right-click on the icon and select Properties. Click the Version tab. File version is 4.72.3110.0 and Description is.. "Windows Internet Explorer"! Off! (talk) 16:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)