Talk:International Socialist Tendency

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[edit] Naming of non-english groups

There seems to be some inconsistnacy in whether pages of non-english speaking IST groups should be titled with an english translation of their name (for example; Workers' Democracy (Cyprus)) or with their name in their language followed by a translation in the article page (for example; Linkswende). I favour the second option.--JK the unwise 19:34, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Both options should be virtually linked to each other, anyway. Another option is adding the original language name followed by its English translation in parenthese, the first time it appears only; this would give a more complete information to reader, whether or not they be competent in the original language. DeepQuasar 15:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some parties added

I've added a a few parties from Leftist Parties of the World. That page also had the English translations for a lot of the groups, however I still don't know what the translations for Suara Sosialis (Indonesia) (Sosialis is presumably Socialist) and Klum Prachatipatai Rangarn (Thailand) Saul Taylor 10:01, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] tiff between T-bone and Jock

I'm going to restore this entry to it's state prior to T Bones last revision. Not only does T Bone needlessly repeat material in a number of entries but he is inaccurate to boot. To give one example the 3 examples he cites as central to IS theory are not so. Many smaller references as to Kidron and the PAE are inaccurate and misleading though not, I suspect, deliberately but through ignorance. Also differentiating the IST from reformism and Stalinism is akin to a Stalinist rewrite of history as it eliminateds all other Trotskyist tendecies without explanation. Also the deletion of accurate information by T Bone because he dislikes it or considers it derogatory to the SWP is bang out of order.

Jock Haston

Im going to retore this entry to it's state prior to Jock Hastons last revision. It beggars belief that Jock could claim the 3 examples cited are not central to IS theory. Deletion of accurate information by Jock because he dislikes it is bang out of order. You can check this and the references I have made to Mike Kidron in numerous publications, most significantly Cliff's autobiography A World To Win. As for 'eliminating other Trotskyist tendencies without explanation'..what? The deletion of information by Jock because he is openly hostile towards the SWP is contrary to the NPOV policy for Wipikedia. I am also staggered with the level of ignorance Jock has concerning the SWP and the IST in general given his obsession with positng on this subject. But this is due, obviously, to his distance from the subject matter. To cite one example of many, he is not even aware of simple day to day matters like who is on the CC and what their responsibilities are.

T bone

Point for point T Bone.

Mike Kidron did not originate the idea of the Permament Arms Economy which was first developed by TN Vance of the Shachtmanite ISL/WP in the 1940's. See Jim Higgins little book More Years for the Locust appendix 1 for the details. Cliff brought it to Britain (Socialist Review May 1957) and only then did Mike Kidron develop the idea. Therefore to describe the PAE as Kidrons work without further comment is at best inadequate, at worst dishonest. Btw Mike Kidron no longer supports the theory in any case. As for Deflected Permanent Revolution it is neither central or even particularly important to the SWP. In fact it is simply a corollory of state capitalism which you obviously don't understand. It does not explain, contrary to your assertion, why the working class did not take power in 'Third World' countries. it's purpose was and is to explain why the intelligentsia could tale power in the asbcance of a revolutionary proletariat. But if you have read Cliffs essay you would know this. As for State Capitalism it does not distinguish the SWP from all other trot tendencies in any case. As you probably don't know other trot tendencies also hold to the idea of state capitalism for example the LRP/COFI of Sy Landy. What is, or was, central to IS theory and the IS tradition was the idea of the self emancipation of the working class. it was because of this that Cliff rejected substitutionist ideas that Russia was a degenerated workers' state. Least ways that what he argues in his auto-biography and was always the position in the IS and during my membership of the SWP. State capitalism is only central to this opposition to substitutionism and thats the view of Tony Cliff. Personally although I have my differenfces with Cliff I prefer his version of what he thought and fought for than I do the version of T Bone.

  • Yawn. Is there a more tortured creature than an ex-SWP member? Reading this self important rant one might say no.

T bone

[edit] More parties to add

Just from personal experience there are a couple of groups not formally affiliated to the tendency but wishing to be, in Australia. Solidarity (Australia) is one such group (see the article about this) as is SAG (Socialist Action Group) a similar small group located in Brisbane, Australia. I haven't used wikipedia like this before so forgive me if I've breached ettiquette or whatever. 61.68.212.162 08:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info' if you can find any souces for it the please be bold and add it to the article.--JK the unwise 14:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)