Talk:International College, Beirut

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[edit] References

  • Time does not say AUB is the finest. It does say " Today Istanbul's Robert College, and the seven others in the Near East College Association,† (Istanbul Woman's College, the American College of Sofia, the American School for Boys at Baghdad, the American University of Beirut, International College (also at Beirut), Athens College, Damascus College in Syria (founded in September 1945) ) have 40,000 alumni, including 29 U.N. delegates and advisers, have become the biggest single reservoir of U.S. goodwill in the strategic Near East. Last week 59 U.S. teachers sailed from New York to restaff the Near East colleges."

If this was said in 1946, it logically makes it much more prestigious now.

  • Cragg as well doesn't say only AUB is the finest, he says "together with its younger offshoots, International College and the Beirut College for Women".
  • USAID, which is an American governmental organization, says "IC has a long and illustrious history as one of the finest educational institutions in the world."
  • The Harvard Arab Alumni calls it "the largest and most prestigious American high school in Lebanon".

I notice it bothers you that this school is better than most American high schools, probably why you ignored the fact that, from personal experience, I see it as much more prestigious than Louis le Grand and Lycee Henri IV, which in turn, are finer than the Sorbonne and the College de France. You probably forgot I told you that. The sources are enough. KlakSonnTalk 14:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I know that the more personal remarks are not directed at me but would you please clarify in the lead that this is a high school or preparatory school. With that clarified I think there is little problem with your superlatives. Thank you. --Justanother 14:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It is a KG-12 school and a preparatory school to AUB. The majority of AUB students come from IC. It is noted in the "History" section and in the sources that I provided. KlakSonnTalk 15:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

That is vital to a description of the nature of the school and should go in the lead. Especially as the American usage of the term college is for a four year post-graduate school. --Justanother 15:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be helpful if this article explained what kind of "college" the International College is, rather than just calling it an "educational institution" (a term which includes all sorts of bodies that are not high schools).

  • What does "finest" mean? Who says this is "one of the finest"?
  • What does "most prestigious" mean? Who says this is "one of the most prestigious"?

I would find this hyperbolic language rather more acceptable if these bald assertions were at least prefaced with some attribution - "X has said that..."; "In Y's opinion, ...."

Yes, the Harvard Arab Alumni website calls the International College "the largest and most prestigious American high school in Lebanon". Firstly, I wonder why we depend so heavily on this rather marginal source: if this fact was self-evident, why are there not lots of other sources - more main-stream sources who compare and contrast many schools around the world - saying the same thing? In any event, "the largest and most prestigious American high school in Lebanon" is not the same thing as "one of the finest and most prestigious educational institutions in the world". Largest does not mean finest (qute often the reverse); and "the most prestigious American high school in Lebanon" (how many other American high schools are there in Lebanon?) does not mean the same things as "one of the most prestigious educational institutions in the world" (American high school are only one sort of educational institution; and Lebanon is slightly smaller than the world).

Time (in 1946) does say (immediately below the part you quote above) that "The most prestigious of colleges is the American University of Beirut"; it does not say anything about "prestigious" the International College is. It also says that the seven named schools together have 40,000 alumni, and are collectively the "biggest single reservoir of U.S. goodwill in the strategic Near East". This says nothing about how "fine" or "prestigious" they are, either collectively or individually. It does not even say anything about how large they are in terms of pupil numbers (1946 was a long time ago; alumni =/= current students). Finally, something that was "prestigious" in 1946 may be more prestigious or less prestigous today - reputations can grow, be maintained, or break - and it could even have ceased to exist.

Cragg says "More incisive and prestigious than the numerous agencies of Christian evangelism and philanthropy that came to Lebanon in the wake of the massacres of 1860, [the American University of Beirut] came to occupy a unique place in the annals of Lebanese education, together with its younger offshoots, International College and the Beirut College for Women." This says that the AUB is prestigious (whatever he means by that), and that the AUB and its offshoots have come to "occupy a unique place in the annals of Lebanese education". It says nothing about how prestiguous (or fine) the International College is.

I could see nothing specific about the school on that USAID link: was I meant to click through to something else? -- ALoan (Talk) 17:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsupported claims

I came to this page to comment on changes I am going to make to the text, but I see the discussion has already gone on, and yet the text has not been altered. The four sources cited do not support the claim that the International College is "one of the finest and most prestigious educational institutions in the world", not by a long stretch.

  • Link 1 merely lists it as one the seven others in the Near East College Association.
  • Link 2 merely says it is undergoing re-accreditation process.
  • Link 3 says it is "the largest and most prestigious American high school in Lebanon", which is not the same thing as "one of the finest and most prestigious educational institutions in the world" by a long stretch of the imagination.
  • Link 4 merely says it is an offshoot of the American University of Beirut.

All four supporting sources says something quite different from what the Wikipedia article claims say they say. Inferences have been drawn from the sources that are not supportable, and so I am removing the unsupported line from the article. Find a quote that directly supports the claim and the claim can go back in. 86.140.131.87 18:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mischaracterization of another editors work as "vandalism" is a no-no

Mischaracterization of a measured and explained edit as "vandalism" as in (rv vandalism - very stupid thing to do) is very inappropriate. Diff. I happen to agree with the IP's edit but I am not going to edit war about it. I imagine that his version will end up being what the intro looks like when all is said and done. --Justanother 21:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

User Klaksonn continues to mischaracterize edits as vandalism even though they are clearly not this is not acceptable. --Daniel J. Leivick 17:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Boohoo. KlakSonnTalk 18:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is sad.

  • Link 1 merely lists it as one the seven others in the Near East College Association.

It says "Today Istanbul's Robert College, and the seven others in the Near East College Association,† (Istanbul Woman's College, the American College of Sofia, the American School for Boys at Baghdad, the American University of Beirut, International College (also at Beirut), Athens College, Damascus College in Syria (founded in September 1945) have 40,000 alumni, including 29 U.N. delegates and advisers, have become the biggest single reservoir of U.S. goodwill in the strategic Near East. Last week 59 U.S. teachers sailed from New York to restaff the Near East colleges."

There is a slight difference between what you said and what was actually written.

  • Link 2 merely says it is undergoing re-accreditation process.

Link 2, if you look to October 13, 2005, explicitely says "IC has a long and illustrious history as one of the finest educational institutions in the world." I sincerely doubt you missed this part.

  • Link 3 says it is "the largest and most prestigious American high school in Lebanon", which is not the same thing as "one of the finest and most prestigious educational institutions in the world" by a long stretch of the imagination.

It does say it is "the largest and most prestigious American high school in Lebanon", which is good enough and surely not by a "long stretch of imagination".

  • Link 4 merely says it is an offshoot of the American University of Beirut.

Link 4 says "The American University of Beirut [...] came to occupy a unique place in the annals of Lebanese education, together with its younger offshoots, International College and the Beirut College for Women." Saying "Link 4 merely says it is an offshoot of the American University of Beirut" shows your intentions.

The quote that directly supports my claim comes from USAID, an American governmental organization. But I guess if you assumed good faith, you wouldn't have ignored the content of the sources and the whole talk page. KlakSonnTalk 21:34, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

You are right, one of the four citations supports your claim. Why are all four there? Perhaps you should AGF that the IP made the same error that I did at first, going to that page and not understanding what we were supposed to see (yes, I see now but I missed it earlier). AGF that seeing that three of four did not support you and the fourth was not directly evident, he moderated your claim to align it with the other three references. Superlatives such as you want to use are dicey; so now you have one that supports and one that does not really, and a couple that invite the reader to infer your conclusion. --Justanother 22:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Calling the International College, Beirut one of the finest educational institutes in the world in the lead paragraph is truly ludicrous. Look at some of the pages for leading world colleges. Not one needs to puff it self up in the lead paragraph. In any case just because one source says something does not mean it can just be put into an article as fact, if you really want to use the USAID source you can same something along the lines of "the USAID has called it one of the finest..." --Daniel J. Leivick 17:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Claims and sources

Do any of the sources provided specifically state that this high school is one of the finest educational institutes in the world. Klaksonn's vehemence makes me skeptical and I havn't been able to find it myself. --Daniel J. Leivick 16:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This one. This source is repeated throughout this talk page.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Internatioancollegelogo1.jpg

Image:Internatioancollegelogo1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 15:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)