Talk:International Bureau of Weights and Measures

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Why does Bureau International des Poids et Mesures redirect here? Is that not the correct title - with title case? 203.26.206.129 07:05, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Somebody must think that is the correct French rule.
Somebody also forgot that this is the English Wikipedia
  • This organization has an official English name, The International Bureau of Weights and Measures, a name which does follow the normal English rules for capitalization.
  • Both "Bureau international des poids et mesures" and "Bureau International des Poids et Mesures" (and BIPM as well) should redirect to International Bureau of Weights and Measures.
This is an international organization, not a French organization--and even if it were a French organization with an official English name, we should use the official English name.
There is only one official acronym for it, BIPM, no matter what language is used when it is spelled out. But that is not a good enough reason to use French in the title here. Gene Nygaard 07:43, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why back to French grammar and rules, rather than English?

Apparently somegbody had fixed the capitalization, but kept the French name rather than the English name, between the time of my comment above, and a few hours ago when somebody again lowercased this name.

Dammit; even the BIPM capitalizes the I and the P and the M in the French language version, and we shouldn't be using the French language version anyway when there is an official English language version (of the spelled out name, normally using the same acronym). [1]

Will somebody who knows how to do this renaming please rename it to International Bureau of Weights and Measures and make the capitalized French version a redirect. Or I will take a stab at it myself; don't blame me if I screw it up. Maybe the uncapitalized French version as well, but that's not what the BIPM uses.
Gene Nygaard 03:30, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Good points being raised in both sections above. Unfortunately, the BIPM is not very helpful in sorting this out. The Convention du mètre is the treaty that sets the BIPM, CGPM, and CIPM up, and its text exists only in French. It clearly indicates the correct French case is to be used for the French names (thus the occasional "Bureau International..." form is somewhat erroneous --it seems to be used only on the English pages in any case). There is no mention of localization issues in the FAQ. Can anyone provide an actual reference that establishes the "official" existence of the English title (International Bureau...) as anything more than a convenient translation? I'll look into this more myself as well, as time allows.
Urhixidur 12:17, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
The fact that the French "des" is always "of" in the "International Bureau of Weights and Measures" (BIPM), always "on" in "General Conference on Weights and Measures" (CGPM), and always "for" in "International Committee for Weights and Measures" (CIPM) is one piece of pretty good evidence that there is an official English version of these names.
There is no French version of the acronyms page; the "Version française" link there to http://www.bipm.org/fr/practical_info/acronyms.html redirects to http://www.bipm.org/en/practical_info/acronyms.html
Look at the capitalization in the name below the logo on all pages (usually if not always in upper left), French or English. Gene Nygaard 14:13, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Follow-up: The official brochures (seventh edition, 1998) exist in French and English, with the French having precedence over the English. (There is a 2000 update, a single document in both languages, which has no bearing on this discussion). They do not lay out the appellations in unambiguous terms, but we can note the following:
1) The English "International Bureau..." does not appear.
2) The French text uses "Bureau international...".
3) The English text uses "Bureau International...".
It seems the BIPM has but one official name, but its case adapts to the local language. Personally, I find that bizarre, but that's life. I conclude that the BIPM has the following names, in order of precedence: "Bureau international...", "Bureau International...", and "International Bureau...". The abbreviation IBWM does not exist. This matches the current set of redirects, so I think Wikipedia has it right.
The pattern is repeated for the other entities (CGPM, CIPM, CCU); however, I note the treaty is written Convention du Mètre in French, so I'll correct that (French capitalises proper nouns in titles, and in this case the Convention is about the metre, i.e. the physical prototype that used to define the unit of length).
Urhixidur 13:36, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
In any case, BIPM usage is not totally determinative as to the existence of the English name, which should be the title in the English encyclopedia. Look also, for example, to the usage of the national standards laboratories in English-speaking countries, such as NIST in the United States, NPL in the United Kingdom, etc. I have, of course, pointed to use of that English name by the BIPM itself; that's enough of an acknowledgement of its existence to justify use of the English name here, with redirects from the two French versions (with different capitalization).
Gene Nygaard 14:13, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Not finding the English version of the name in the BIPM "brochure" explaining the SI doesn't prove the nonexistence of that English name of these bodies, especially in light of the explicit listing of the English names on the acronyms page (note also that it appears that there is only one version of that acronyms page, for all users). That listing in itself is sufficent to give it "official" status. Gene Nygaard 14:25, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Proving a negative (« the nonexistence of... ») is, obviously, impossible. The burden of proof lies with the other half of the argument. My point is, simply, that the legal instrument that brings the metric system into existence is the Convention du Mètre, which exists only in French. We've established that English translations of the titles of the various organs (BIPM, etc.) do exist, but that does not make them anything more than conveniences.
As for NIST's usage, I find it rife with typos and errors when it quotes French, so it is not a very reliable source. Still, if you wish to move the page to its English title, I find it no skin off my nose.
Meanwhile, the problem stands unresolved: Does the English name have any official standing? (Internationally, that is; it of course has official standing in English-speaking countries' laws)
Urhixidur 02:32, 2005 May 28 (UTC)
Digging some more into the question, the Manual of style (Wikipedia:Naming conventions) does bear Gene out: « Organizations (such as political parties): For [these] articles [...] the general rule applies. That means: Name your pages with the English translation and place the original native name on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form. ». So I'll move the page(s) so that Gene doesn't "screw them up", as he put it...
Urhixidur 02:48, 2005 May 28 (UTC)
I think I know how to do it, but I've never tried it. I would have moved the target (English name) to some dummy name, moved the French name to the English name, and moved -- no, it doesn't make sense to move the dummy anywhere. Guess I don't have it figured out after all. I don't think I would have done more than minimal damage to the history; but I have problems with understanding why "moves" work the way they do in the first place. Why can't you add editorial comments when moving? Why don't those renamings show up in the history? I also had problems once with the talk page not moving, when it should have, I'd checked the proper box and there was no other talk page in the way. Gene Nygaard 04:20, 28 May 2005 (UTC)