Talk:Intelligence Support Activity

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[edit] Improving the page

Added a link to a GWU paper on the history of the ISA; an interested editor may use that to list credible sources for this article and remove that pesky "Needs sources" tag. --VAcharon 17:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I have improved the page. The references to the Foreign Operating Group have been removed (and the need sources tag), and now the page deals with USAISA history from the Field Operations Group until to operation Queens Hunter. I'll try to go further, but I need that a "true" English-speaker corrects what I have yet written.
Otherwise, I have got Richelson's Truth Conquers All Chains, and I have saved a copy at User:Rob1bureau/TCAC (with many errors of backspaces and lacking letters). In the Bibliography, I have only quoted the bibliography used until here (I'll add reference to Seymour Hersh articles, Richard Newman's Hunting war criminals, Bowden's Killing Pablo and others when I would have written page's parts refering to).
I have also ordered Steven Emerson's Secret Warriors and Michael Smith's Killer Elite and I'm waiting to receive them. Rob1bureau 22:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge suggested with GRAY FOX

Gray Fox and ISA is the same unit? They carry through the same mission... The two are extremely secret units, it less has more or the same amount of operators, and correspond to the Department of Defense... Yes or No?

It is strongly believed that is is the same unit :
  • "USAISA" term was terminated in march 1989 along the SAP (Special Access Program) GRANTOR SHADOW [1], but there is no evidence that the unit was disbanded
  • units similar to the ISA were repetidly reported since, using codenames :
    • CENTRA SPIKE around 1993 (Mark Bowden Killing Pablo)
    • TORN VICTOR in the mid-90s (US News & World Report 7/6/98 - "Hunting war criminals: The first account of secret U.S. missions in Bosnia" by Richard J. Newman [2])
    • GRAY FOX (or GREY FOX ?), reported in several Seymour Hersh articles (including Manhunt, Moving Targets, The Coming Wars), all available on the New Yorker website.
Otherwise, most authors agree that way :
  1. Arkin's The secret War : Though its freelance tendencies were curbed, the ISA continued to operate under different guises through the ill-starred U.S. involvement in Somalia in 1992 and was reportedly active in the hunt for Bosnian Serbs suspected of war crimes. Today, the ISA operates under the code name Gray Fox.
  2. Smith's online presentation of Killer Elite : a little known US special operations intelligence unit which had at one time gone by the name the Intelligence Support Activity but by then was said to be hiding under the covername Gray Fox.
  3. Sean Naylor's Not a Good Day to Die : The unit was code-named Gray Fox, but it had also gone by a smattering of other bland code names, including the Intelligence Support Activity, the Army of Virginia (sometimes amended to the Army of Northern Virginia)
  4. Bowden's Killing Pablo : It [the unit] had been called Torn Victory, Cemetery Wind, Capacity Gear and Robin Court. Lately, it was "Centra Spike."
  5. on Gray Fox page : Gray Fox is a secretive special missions unit of the United States military, originally known as Intelligence Support Activity (ISA).
I suggest to give these details in the article, when the Activity's history will reach its "termination" in 1989. Rob1bureau 16:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speaking with Mr. Smith

I am the author of Killer Elite and agree entirely with Rob on this. But Gray Fox was just a temporary name for the organisation formerly known as the Intelligence Support Activity so they should be merged. The link made with Nicaragua is completely spurious as the organisation did not exist until the failure of the Tehran rescue mission, beginning as Rob says with the creation by Jerry King of the Field Operating Group. There are sadly a number of errors in the page on the ISA, including the spurious Nicaragua reference. But Rob's material above looks largely correct to me. Killer Elite (currently out only in the UK but published in the US by St Martin's Press in March 2007) is the only book documenting its history but there are three books not mentioned by Rob. One is Bowden's more famous book Black Hawk Down, another is Rowan Scarborough's Rumsfeld's War which carries some important information on the Activity's work in the GWOT and the third and perhaps the most important of these three is Sean Naylor's Not a Good Day to Die, which covers Activity operations in Afghanistan in 2002, referring to it by it's covername on the ground which is Task Force Orange (as opposed to Task Force Blue - DevGru and Task Force Green - Delta). Hope this is helpful. Michael Smith, 17 November 2006.

Dear Mr. Smith,

[edit] Speaking with Mr. Smith

I am the author of Killer Elite and agree entirely with Rob on this. But Gray Fox was just a temporary name for the organisation formerly known as the Intelligence Support Activity so they should be merged. The link made with Nicaragua is completely spurious as the organisation did not exist until the failure of the Tehran rescue mission, beginning as Rob says with the creation by Jerry King of the Field Operating Group. There are sadly a number of errors in the page on the ISA, including the spurious Nicaragua reference. But Rob's material above looks largely correct to me. Killer Elite (currently out only in the UK but published in the US by St Martin's Press in March 2007) is the only book documenting its history but there are three books not mentioned by Rob. One is Bowden's more famous book Black Hawk Down, another is Rowan Scarborough's Rumsfeld's War which carries some important information on the Activity's work in the GWOT and the third and perhaps the most important of these three is Sean Naylor's Not a Good Day to Die, which covers Activity operations in Afghanistan in 2002, referring to it by it's covername on the ground which is Task Force Orange (as opposed to Task Force Blue - DevGru and Task Force Green - Delta). Hope this is helpful. Michael Smith, 17 November 2006.

Dear Mr. Smith,

  • first thank you for your intervention, it's very pleasing to do that (I also saw such a answer on that forum : [3])
  • Could you tell us what are the copyrights of the photographs shown on your website, especially if it's work made by an US govt employees, because it will be in public domain; and interesting photos about ISA are hard to find. Especially, I search a copy of USAISA's badge reported by J.T. Richelson, but I haven't found it yet.

Michael Smith:You should buy Killer Elite via Amazon.co.uk. It has a copy of the insignia mentioned by Richelson. The picture of Jerry King is not copyright protected. The picture of the explosion taken by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and passed to the ISA by an agent is attributed in Killer Elite to Bill Cowan who owns the copy of the photograph I used.

  • Is there any hope for a French translation of your book ? I'm afraid to think it will not be, after having seen Bowden's "Black Hawk Down" not translated as far as I know, even after the movie was well appreciated in France. That's sad, because I think that a translation would have also met with success.

Michael Smith: I am sure a French translation of Black Hawk Down would have worked and I am surprised it hasn’t happened. But Killer Elite is more specialized. Still there is a big special forces/operations market there as you know so who knows. But not at the moment.

  • Working on ISA since a little time, I always lack of information about ISA's involvment in some affairs :
    • the search and freedom of Gen. Dozier. I hadn't found serious piece of information about how Dozier's "prison" was located. Allegations are ranging from "the information were the results of ISA or Delta intel. specialists" to "Mafia helped Italian government because some of his hideouts were discovered bu Italians authorities searching for Red Brigades stakeouts".

Michael Smith: The Dozier kidnap and how it was resolved is covered in depth in Killer Elite.

    • the Somalia in 1993 : I have bought and read Black Hawk Down, and I found that information about TF Ranger's intel is not very adequate, especially to presume that ISA personnel was part of TFR. The ISA term is used in the "Critical analysis on the Task Force Ranger" [4], but this text, although beeing an official one (by Maj. Clifford E. Day, Research Department, Air Command and Staff College), is obviously levity :
      Most of the intelligence in Somalia came from CIA penetration agents organized into the Intelligence Support Activity (ISA). The ISA agents mainly consisted of individuals recruited from clans rival to the SNA, and led by a US CIA officer. [...]
      The ISA agents recruited from rival clans by the CIA performed this dangerous duty not only because they hated Aidid, but also due to the exorbitant amount of the money they were paid. These agents were being paid for simply working with the CIA, and not for the accuracy of intelligence they were providing. Rather than paying these agents solely for being brave enough to spy, they should have been paid solely on the quality of intelligence they gathered and provided.
      Meanwhile, ISA is not part of CIA, "USAISA" term was terminated four years and a half ago, and I doubt that, after scandals like the "Yellow Fruit" affair, ISA agents would be allowed to expense munch money without strong control from their superiors. And this report includes others major errors, like writing that a TFR's MH-60 was shot down on 15th September (it was an 101st Airborn Div UH-60, shot down on 25th september) ; I didn't found any evidence of any lack of M203 or MK19 on 3rd oct. (photographs taken in the hangar show Ranger Chalks with a lot support weapons - M203, M249 SAW, and M60 - and lots of Humvees has MK19s on octoer 3rd - all correction according to M. Bowden's book) ; and the author wasn't able to speak about what happened to Super 64 crew and the two Delta snipers, what is surprising for a 1997 document.

Michael Smith: You are right about the confusion over the ISA and its "ownership". The Activity's role in that incident is untangled in Killer Elite. I’m interested - and also surprised - to hear you say that there were errors in Bowden’s account. I hope I haven’t inadvertently repeated them but Killer Elite is fully annotated so if you buy it you will be able to see for yourself!

    • The 1996-97 hostage crisis in the japanese ambassy in Peru : it is widely said that US, British and maybe Israeli SF had been "advisors" for Peruvian SF. It is also sometimes said that Delta and 22 SAS operators were directly involved in the raid (officially made only by Peruvian SF). And lastly, it is supposed that US were involved in the collect of actionable intelligence for the raid : a "silent" recon RG-8 aircraft is thought to have been used (see [5]), and it is often said that US intel. agencies had taped terrorists communications - the NSA and Special Collection Service are often quoted, but I think that Activity operators were more skilled to provide intel in such a situation, which is Activity's mission.

Michael Smith: I have no authoritative information on the involvement of either UK or US special ops people in the Japanese Embassy siege, although it would make sense that advice was provided by the Activity and the SAS if Peru asked the US and UK governments respectively for help.

  • I do my best to improve my bibliography about ISA. Recently I got Jeffrey T. Richelson, "Truth Conquers All Chains" ; I had already Black Hawk Down, as said upper in this message ; an owner of Sean Naylor "Not a Good Day to Die" will mail me scanned pages of the book dealing with Gray Fox, but if the information will be interesting, it deals only with operation Anaconda.
    I have not find any official document about the Activity published after the 1989 "termination of the USAISA". And concerning the available documents, I doubt that the "Brief History of Unit" was issued in 1986 as said by J.T. Richelson on N.S.Archiv, because it is writen : in the two years following its emergence as a permanently chartered element (i.e., July 1983), the roles and missions of ISA have not been reewaminated. This paper addresses that task." So July 1983 + the two following years = circa mid-1985 rather than 1986, don't you think so ?
    Emerson's Secrets Warriors seems to be the main source of information about ISA on the 1980-88 period (quoted buy Richelson in "Truth conquers all chains" on the main points of history of the unit); I'll try to get a second-hand copy.

Michael Smith: Expensive and difficult but I have a copy and while writing Killer Elite went back to a number of his sources to check the facts, some of which were wrong. I cover all the incidents he covers and have fortunately managed to get more detail. One of his key sources skewed some of his reporting but, of its time, it is a great piece of work.

  • Do you think that US Army Tactical Support Team is a cover name for the Activity, as reported here : [6] ?

Michael Smith: Not that I am aware but Tactical Support Activity was and the Tactical Support Team could just be a corruption of that.

  • you will improve the American edition of "Killer Elite", don't you ?

Michael Smith: Already done. But its not out until March next year, whereas the paperback of Killer Elite is already out and available on Amazon.co.uk at http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0304367273?tag2=michaelsmithw-21

  • because on the French Wikipedia, I'm working on the Joint Special Operations Command and its "Special Missions Units", I am first working on Delta, DEVGRU and the 24 STS (but ISA and Seaspray are just following). So, have you got serious pieces of information about a "Funny Platoon", thought to be a part of Delta Force charged to collect intelligence in order to not rely on the ISA as reported sometimes (never by reliable sources, I know), and a JSOC's "Joint Aviation Unit" or a Delta's "Aviation squadron", often quoted but never coming from identified sources ? On my own, I suppose that the aviation unit may be a "descendant" of Seaspray.

Michael Smith: The true name of this aviation unit is in the glossary on my website which you have refered to above. Get it here: http://www.michaelsmithwriter.com/index.html

  • you are the Mr. Smith which was interviewed in a TV reporting about operation FOXLEY, aren't you ? (It was braodcast on a French TV channel some weeks ago and I saw it ; very interesting by the way)

Michael Smith: Yes that’s me. Surprised it made it to French TV.


Rob1bureau 11:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC) : I finally got and read Killer Elite, and it's a very good piece of work. It is the best about the Activity, and the main new information about the ISA since Emerson and Richelson works. Thank you very much. I also got Emerson's book,

I was surprised to learn the blame against the French about the hunt for PIFWCs in former-Yugoslavia, because I had read several accounts of a sincere endeavour from the Frenchs to arrest war criminals. I heard from (but I have not read) two books :

  • Jacques Massé, "Nos chers criminels de guerre : Paris, Zagreb, Belgrade en classe affaires" ("our dear war criminals: Paris, Zagreb, Belgrad in first class flights"), Flammarion editions, Paris 2006 ISBN 2-08068729-8 for a global view of French attempts
  • Michel Bernard, "GIGN, le temps d'un secret", Bibliophane - Daniel Radford editions, Paris, 2003 ISBN 2-86970073-3 (unfortuneatly unavailable now), an account of a former GIGN operator about his career, including operations under the COS (French SOCOM) orders in former-Yugoslavia to locate the serb militia leader Zeljko Raznatovic, nicknamed "Arkan", which was later murdered in January 2000. Michel Bernard said that on a recon, he was able to spot "Arkan" inside a building using the scope of his sniper rifle.

The French special forces performed some arrests of PIFWCs, especially Momčilo Krajišnik on April 3rd, 2000. To achieve it, French intelligence military used Gazelle Viviane choppers for thermal imaging, 13e Régiment de Dragons Parachutistes (13e RDP) for close reconnaissance, and COMINT experts from the 54e Régiment de Transmissions (54e RT, "54th communications regiment" which is actually the COMINT and EW regiment of the army for tactical needs ; the 44e RT is the same for intermediate-level between tactical and strategic needs). The arrest was carried out by navy commandos of Commando Hubert the Groupe de Combat en Milieu Clos (GCMC, "close quarters combat group", later renamed ECTLO).

About the errors about the "Black Hawk Down" battle, I have probably not very well written my answer: I wanted to say that I had noticed errors in Major Day's analysis, not in Bowden's account, and for most of them I was able to say that they were mistakes thanks to Bowden's Black Hawk Down book. Otherwise I just found Black Hawk Down rather poor about intelligence gathering by the Task Force Ranger, but I didn't want to say there is something false. I only picked up some minor errors in Black Hawk Down :

  • Bowden says there were two Air Force CCTs, while Special Tactics.com writes there were seven CCTs, that's rather a lack of information than an error.
  • in the Notes / Black Hawk Down / 10 (p.524), Bowden says that the UH-60 shot down on september 25, 1993, was a 10th M.D. one, but previously he said it was an 101st A.D. chopper.
  • in the Notes / The Alamo / 9 (p.541), Bowden confused Super Six Four with Super Six Two (piloted by Yacone and Goffena, and carrying Brad Hallings - and Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart before they were dropped near the Super Six Four wreckage).

[edit] Article merged

Article merged: See old talk-page here --Skywolf talk/contribs 07:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)