Talk:Intact dilation and extraction

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[edit] Images

Images listed directly below cannot be used on Wikipedia - their autors refused to abandon their rights:

Why does this article have no images or external links to images of partial-birth abortion (or IDX if you prefer)? Simply that pro-life arguments typically involve the horrible and grisly reality of images is no reason to have such a controversial article without pictures or the topic. 67.171.43.170 01:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Graphic images are generally not preferred. So vomiting and menstrual cycle do not have any images, and pre-ejaculate has only a link to an image.

Cartoon images and line drawings are pretty widely accepted, an example is the article sexual intercourse. The cartoon by Jenny Westberg, published in Life Advocate in 1993 (that started the whole anti-PBA social movement) would probably be both aesthetically acceptable and of historical interest to the topic. However, that image is under copyright. Someone would need to get permission from Ms. Westberg to use it under Wikipedia's GFDL, or find proof that she has already released it into the public domain. Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 02:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

There is NOTHING aesthetically Pleasing about a partial birth abortion. THAT is the POINT. If you WANT aesthetically Pleasing images, go the the article on the human breast or vagina. If you go to surgery you have a photo of a procedure being performed, not a cartoon. If you go to terrorist you see the burning twin towers is that aesthetically acceptable to you? NO! People Died there, but it is Accurate. If you look up death you will see plenty of accurate pictures which describe that. There are Plenty of photos on any of the WAR subjects to illustrate EXACTLY what goes on there. AND the choice of photos can surely be described as Political. Why don't you read the article about Aestheticization of violence so you can see what you are trying to do here. I believe ALL of the abortion issues should contain vivid photos which truely represent both sides. LET Pro abotion rights supporters choose 6 photos and let pro life supporters choose 6 photos that describe or illustrate abortion. I wonder how many seconds this idea will be allowed to stay posted? Giftindex 12:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)giftindex

First of all, you have to understand that wikipedia is distributed under the GFDL, and therefore image copyright is a serious concern. All images have to be distributed under a free license, or have a fair use rational. Therefore, it isn't just a simple task of each side choosing images. -Andrew c 15:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

On the open heart surgery page, there is a photo of the a surgery in progress showing the open chest cavity and heart. This warrants the use of photos or illustrations in this case if some can be found whose use is not limited by copyright.L. Porrello 16:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to disagree with your logic here. Wikipedia has guidelines that suggest other wikipedia articles should not necessarily be used as precedent for other articles (i.e. WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS). We also have an image use policy that states "Do not upload shocking or explicit pictures, unless they have been approved by a consensus of editors for the relevant article." Therefore, both of these lead to the conclusion that controversial images should be discussed on a case by case basis, and supported by consensus BEFORE inclusion. I'm glad you realize the copyright issues as well. The open heart surgery image is a work of the NIH and thus in the public domain.-Andrew c 17:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Andrew c has taken "What about article x?" WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS completely out of context. "What about article x?" has to do with whether entire topics should or should not be included in Wikipedia, not what content goes into particular articles. And even if it did apply to content within specific articles, it would still not hold weight in this discussion as the practice of including photos and illustrations in articles about medical procedures is a general practice across all of Wikipedia. It is universal. In other words, it is warranted by all of Wikipedia, not just a single article. If anything warrants debate it is why articles pertaining to abortion do not have pictures. The omission of pictures or illustrations demonstrates that this topic (and other abortion related topics?) are being dealt with differently from all other medically related topics in Wikipedia. And this suggests a grave violation of the NPOV rule.L.C. Porrello 21:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Please add some cartoonish picture if possible. Without it article is seriously incomplete. I suggest this http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/PBA_Images/PBA_Images_Heathers_Place.htm . I asked nrlc.org about legal status of pictures (waiting for response). Pseudohuman (talk) 10:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the colorized cartoons may be more graphic. I would like to see this article include the line drawings from this article, if permission can be obtained for the images. Those particular images also have historical significance for this topic (something the colorized drawings do not), which is another argument for inclusion. Lyrl^Talk _C 21:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what do you mean by "graphic" (not native english speaker). I like colours, but i consider your pictures Lyrl better because of written explanation of whats going on on them. Historical significance may be considered as another supporting factor. And i've just received answer - coloured images are copyrighted. They ask what do i have in mind (despite i said that in my first letter, perhaps my english is worse than i thought). I'll try to ask about your pictures Lyrl too. Pseudohuman (talk) 20:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, please consider checking out Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. It isn't enough to have a copyright owner say "it's ok to use my image on wikipedia". We have to have verification, filed through the OTRS system that the copyright owner has donated (aka released) the image under the terms of the GFDL, or some other free license (or released the image into the public domain). That said, we should be very careful about obtaining images from partisan organizations. Images from strong pro-choice or pro-life advocates may not meet WP:NPOV, or WP:RS for that matter. You may want to consider seeking images from more notable, reliable, less partisan sources, like college level text books. Another option would be to contact WP:GRAPHICS LAB and specifically request that someone illustrate an image (and perhaps providing some source material to aid them). -Andrew c ^[talk] 22:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Perhaps it wasn't good idea to search for good images, when I lack medical and wikipedian skills to tell apart POV from NPOV and US from RS. Nevertheless I quite like Lyrl's images (http://www.lifeadvocate.org/arc/dx.htm). I added list of images which cannot be used (authors refused to abandon their rights) on the beginning of this section. Pseudohuman (talk) 12:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't manage to get in touch with Lyrl's images author. I tried through http://www.lifeadvocate.org site, but my mail went unanswered. Well, thats final results of my search. Pseudohuman (talk) 21:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disarticulate at the neck

I have replaced the phrase "disarticulate at the neck" with the phrase "decapitate it". This is clearly not an easy area to edit in but I am trying for language which is as non-emotive as possible but does not obscure meaning - "disarticulate at the neck" is a rare and hard to understand phrase - Google gives it just 13 hits, many from Wikipedia and mirrors. My first attempt, "behead", was hurried and admittedly crass, and I see that "remove the head" was unclear (remove from what?). "Decapitate" is an accurate and I hope non emotionally loaded word to convey the meaning clearly. Springnuts (talk) 21:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

"Decapitate" brings on images of the French revolution and La Guillotine. As accurate as opponents of the procedure may find it, it's hardly a non-emotionally loaded word. "Disarticulate at the neck" is a direct quote from the reference for that statement. Perhaps that sentence could be reworded to make clear that phrase is a quote from a doctor who performs abortions? Lyrl^Talk _C 01:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

"Behead" also was emotionally loaded as being about executions. My quarrel with the "disarticulate" term is pretty much just its being so obscure - I had to look it up - it sounded as if it meant to break the beck. not sever it. How about "cut the head from the body"? "Cut" has no emotional weight in normal speech since it can be related to many activities across the moral spectrum (vegetables, surgery, flowers, knife crime, trivial accidents with paper) - it depends on context. Springnuts (talk) 20:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I like Springnuts' suggestion of "cut". I've gone ahead and put "cut through the neck" in the article, I hope that will work for both of us (and anyone else interested). Lyrl^Talk _C 02:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Works better the way you have phrased it - thank you. Springnuts (talk) 21:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)