Talk:Inspiration of Ellen White
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[edit] Material moved from page
[edit] Recent material
Link removed from page:
- Ellen-White.com Examining the allegations since 2000
Please justify why the individuals behind this site are notable enough to be included. Colin MacLaurin 19:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Earlier material
Some of the basic points are helpful, but there is far too much information which is simply not relevant to the topic. Some of it might belong on other pages such as Victor Houteff. Please summarise it drastically. The material does not appear to abide by a neutral point of view.
The site www.gilead.net is linked to several times for the text of White's writings. The site is not a good choice, as it is not highly notable and also appears to represent the POV of Historic Adventism. Please link instead to the Ellen G. White Estate homepage, which is not only far more notable and more representative of mainstream Adventism, but is also the official Ellen White website. Colin MacLaurin 17:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The following section was moved from the article. As requested above, please summarise it drastically to a concise, encyclopedic style. Most of the detail is not relevant to this article, but pertinent shorter remarks could fit it well. It appears to represent a critical POV, whereas Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy states that all major viewpoints be represented. Colin MacLaurin 07:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
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=== A Prophetess Within the Adventist Church? ===
Much debate remains as to the relevance, authenticity of Mrs. White’s “prophetic gift.” The existence of a “spirit of prophecy,” has remained a delicate and somewhat awkward subject to many Adventist theologians since Mrs. White’s death, an open and much disputed question which D.M. Canfield, was quick to take advantage of, in his hostile book, The Life of Ellen G. White.
After Mrs. White’s death, it was generally assumed that the “gift of prophecy” would abide within the SDA church, manifesting itself, as God saw fit. That this was the universal impression of most Adventists and non-Adventists at the 20th century’s commencement, is evidenced by an obituary of Mrs. White, in the New York Independent, entitled American Prophetess, and quoted favorably in the Church’s approved biography of her. “Of course, these teachings were based on the strictest doctrine of inspiration of the Scriptures. Seventh-day Adventism could be got in no other way. And the gift of prophecy was to be expected as promised to the "remnant church," who had held fast to the truth. This faith gave great purity of life and incessant zeal. No body of Christians excels them in moral character and religious earnestness.” {6BIO 444.1} Ellen G. White Volume 6 The Later Elmshaven Years. Within one year of Mrs. White’s passing, Margaret Rowen, a resident of Los Angeles, California, claimed to be her spiritual successor. According to Herbert E. Douglass, in his book, the Prophetic Ministry of Ellen G. White:
Writes R.W. Schwarz in his book, Light Bearers to the Remnant
To substantiate her avowal of being Mrs. White’s spiritual heiress, Mrs. Rowen and her followers engaged in a bizarre scheme to plant a letter in the deceased woman’s vault. This letter purported to be an endorsement of Mrs. Rowen as Mrs. White’s designated successor. The scheme failed, as did Mrs. Rowens prophecies. When Christ’s Second Coming failed to materialize, on the date which she had set; February 6, 1925, Mrs. Rowen’s supporters melted away, and she was eventually convicted of attempting to murder to Dr. Bert Fullmer, one of her leading adherents and defenders, as documented by Larry White, in his book, “Margaret W. Rowen, Prophetess of Reform and Doom,” and Martin Gardner, in his essay“The Incredible Flimflams of Margaret Rowen.” After serving her sentence at San Quentin Penitentiary, she vanished into obscurity. Though Margaret Rowen is today but a footnote in the history of the Adventist Church, her influence upon its psyche is indelible. Since the 1920s, the Adventist Church has been reluctant to accept the very idea of a Living Prophet, within the Church, and overtly hostile to anyone who claims to be possessed with the Spirit of Prophecy. While conservative Seventh Day Adventists defend Mrs. White’s reputation as a prophetess, and the authority of her books on doctrinal and theological questions, they must also clarify her claims that a successor would follow her, contrasted with their own, that Mrs. White was the last prophet to the SDA Church.
In 1930, Victor T. Houteff, a Bulgarian immigrant and businessman used this quote from Mrs. White’s book as a catalyst to begin his own movement within the Adventist Church. He published a book entitled, The Shepherd's Rod which caused great dissensionin the Adventist Church, far more extensive and significant than Mrs. Rowen’s opportunistic pretensions could muster. In the preface of his book, Houteff wrote,
By “the writings given by the Spirit of Prophecy,” Houteff perceptibly meant those of Mrs. White, for he quoted liberally from her “Testimonies” and other books. In his Introduction, he declares:
Though Houteff was careful to avoid any direct comparison or claim to Mrs. White’s “prophetic gift,” it is quite clear that his followers believed him to be a prophet in the mold of Ellen G. White. In 1934, the Seventh Day Adventist Church’s Pacific Union Conference Committee gave Houteff a hearing. They rejected his doctrines out of hand, after his initial presentation, releasing a pamphlet entitled A Reply to The Shepherd's Rod which demonstrated several errors in Houteff’s book, that appeared to contradict the writings of Mrs. White, whom he claimed to support. The Shepherd's Rod
The Spirit of Prophecy
In rebuttal, Houteff complained that his written statements had been taken out of context. Shortly after this, he and many of his followers, including two ex-Conference presidents, were disfellowshipped from the Adventist Church. Houteff then began his own movement within a movement; the Davidian Seventh-day Adventists. Houteff considered his group to be part of the Adventist Church and not a separate denomination. Consequently, his followers were to proselytize exclusively within the SDA Church, teaching their doctrine, which is known as The Shepherd's Rod Message. Houteff purported to answer many open, doctrinal questions in the Church, some of which, had been partially addressed by Mrs. White, such as the subject of the 144,000 of Revelation 7, the Judgment of the Living, and the Cleansing of the Sanctuary. The foundation of Houteff and his follower’s belief that a “prophetic gift” would always exist, so long as the world lasted. While they believed in the progression of “new light,” that God would inspire certain “prophets” with original and innovative views on the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy; that the “prophet’s” “inspired” interpretations of Biblical prophecy and symbolism would precede end of times and should be heeded by the Adventist Church leadership. They elevated the importance of Mrs. White’s writings, believing that it was impossible for individuals to independently interpret scripture with any degree of success. The Davidians based their beliefs on a verse from 2 Peter.
Houteff’s followers base their belief on the fact that “private interpretation” of the Bible by church theologians and the laity, alike, would lead to conflicting views on nearly every point at hand—and would therefore lead to a divisive and divided church. Rather, Davidians believe, the “prophetic gift” bestowed first to Mrs. White, and later to Mr. Houteff, must alone determine Scriptural prophecies and doctrine, in order to preserve harmony and a common structural doctrinal belief within the Church. In support of their position, they quote extensively from Mrs.’s White’s writings: particularly her book, Testimonies to Ministers.
“These words,” wrote Mr. Houteff, in Volume 1 of his book, the Shepherd’s Rod, “suggest that there is more light to shine, and light is truth.” Combined with Houteff’s later, oral defense of his movement within the Adventist Church, it is a virtual summation of his position
embracing the additional Heaven-born Truth which gives power and force to the Advent message (Early Writings, pg. 277), and which makes us better Seventh-day Adventists than we have been or could otherwise be. Now, if we be "offshoots" for walking in the light which heaven sends from time to time to lead God's people in the way of Truth and Righteousness, then I should like to know what our brethren think they themselves are, for by the same token of logic the Mother Denomination, the Seventh-day Adventist, is itself an offshoot from another denomination. Moreover, this is also true of all the Protestant denominations, for they are the offshoots of the Catholic; and the Apostolic is an offshoot of the Jewish. Who, then, outside of the Jews is not an offshoot? In fact, if we go as far back as Abraham's time, we will find that even the Jews were an offshoot of something before their time. If offshoots are therefore to be shunned, hated, and abhorred, then why are there any Christians at all? And if this is an eye-opener to those who think themselves something other than an offshoot, they should now without delay apply for admission to the Synagogue, or else begin to behave like God's men.”-Timely Greetings, Vol. 2, No. 43. The history of Victor Houteff and that of his followers is a long and tenuous one. Though residual, fragmented portions of his movement remain, all of whom still revere both Mr. Houteff and Mrs. White, but loathe one another and remain at odds with the Adventist Church; at least one faction of the Davidians met a much more poignant, sordid, and better publicized end than even those followers of Margaret Rowen. David Koresh, a former Adventist turned Davidian, developed his own, highly unique and bizarre adaptation of Mr. Houteff’s doctrine, a doctrine which brought him followers, notoriety and an eventually infamous end. Few have claimed the prophetic gift of Mrs. White, in the past fifty years. Mrs. Jeanine Sautron, may claim to be the exception to the rule. An elderly woman of African descent, and a long-time resident Saint-Julien, France, she has many years distributed her “messages” from the Holy Spirit within the Adventist Church., heralding the imminent return of Jesus Christ.
The question of whether Mrs. White’s “gift of prophecy,” was inheritable is, of course, controversial, when aligned by the debatable point of whether it in fact existed at all. But the church fully realizes that a rejection of Mrs. White, means an entire reevaluation of it’s every doctrinal stance, from the Three Angel’s Message to the End Times, a renovation of its Fundamental Beliefs, and sure division over points of Scriptural prophecy and doctrine, previously closed from debate, by Mrs. White’s interpretations, which were sacrosanct from criticism or censure within the Seventh Day Adventist Church. The Adventist Church has suffered heavily from its position, upholding and defending both the writings of Mrs. White, and her claim to a “prophetic gift.” The claims of her would-be successors over the past century, have created a great controversy within the church, leading to bad press and mass defections by church ministers and members alike. Many, like Dale Ratzlaff justify their defection by declaring their complete lack of faith in the validity of Mrs. White’s writings. Ratzlaff writes,
But admits,
thus illuminating the great divide the great separation between Evangelical Christians; namely those who stake their entire basis of belief upon 2d Peter 1:20-21,
and those who are skeptical of professed prophets and prophetesses, and also of the existence of a “prophetic gift,” of the variety which Mrs. White claimed to possess. These Christians, many of them now former-Adventists believe that an individual and independent interpretation of the scriptures is all that is necessary to ensure their salvation and understanding of Biblical prophecies. They also base their position upon Holy Writ:
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[edit] Section mergers with Ellen White
This page is about the nature of the inspiration of Ellen White and her writings. This is a much more specific topic than the general page Ellen White, but this is the particular point controverted. Two reasons for this page:
- There is a lot of material for this page
- This is the controverted point regarding her. Her existence, her life etc. are not disputed. But her writings/inspiration is what is disputed. Many articles and sections support or dispute her prophetic gift specifically. The existence of this page allows a natural wikilink to be created from these other articles. However a wikilink to the Ellen White page would be off topic. Again, this page would go in the Category:Seventh-day Adventist theology, because it describes a theological belief of the church. But the Ellen White page would not belong in this category. A related concept is the "Spirit of prophecy".
The main page would be left to describe her biography, family life, leadership influence upon the church, role in the 1888 meeting, and even a list of her writings and the major themes within. Colin MacLaurin 10:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- I am not sure about the theology category link. I can't quite think of why but I see this page as separate from a discussion of the churches theology.
- Apart from that, this page is valid according to the comments I made earlier about it. NPOV can easily hold under the title as is. The title does not stop evidence against the gift from being presented so it is not a POV fork. Ansell 12:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that any person should get two entries, and if you must keep them seperate, than I would say move this to Ellen White : The Prophetic Gift or something like that. It is almost like you are advertising for her by putting it under prophecy Mattbman 22:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- Actually many people described in Wikipedia have several articles. Consider William Shakespeare for instance. There is a lot of content for Ellen G. White, and in fact the debate as to whether or not her prophetic gift was genuine is the most contentious issue regarding her. An article name change could be justified, but other articles on George W. Bush also use this style - Early life of George W. Bush and Professional life of George W. Bush. One policy stated, "Do not use an article name that suggests a hierarchy of articles". The policy Wikipedia:Summary style is relevant to this discussion. Colin MacLaurin 16:41, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Title
What is the best title for this article? Some have suggested it is currently POV, which is certainly not intended. As pointed out by anothers, article titles such as Papal infallibility could also sound POV. "Prophetic gift of Ellen White" is a little clumsy. How about a rename to Inspiration of Ellen White (which currently redirects here), which is a slightly less specific title, and shorter? The word "inspiration" could have a spiritual connotation to a religious person and/or supporter of White, or the entirely humanistic connotation of "creativity" to a critic. Another option would be to merge it into Spirit of Prophecy (Adventist), however I strongly disagree with this, as many Adventists themselves criticise the use of this term. Colin MacLaurin 05:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Support. The proposed title is far more neutral. The current title assumes she had a prophetic gift, which may be contentious to some. MyNameIsNotBob 10:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
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- Done. Thanks for the input. I am hoping for more editorial attention to this page. Cheers, Colin MacLaurin 12:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Reply to Additions
If I might direct your attention to the title of this page, which have somehow escaped your consideration.
- The Prophetic Gift of Ellen White.
This page, was therefore devoted history of Mrs. White’s “gift,” and I have striven to create a balance perspective of same, with strong historical overtones. Should one wish to seriously evaluate Mrs. White’s “Prophetic Gift,” in the context of a Wikipedia article, then he must certainly create a balanced portrayal of the history of this “Prophetic gift,” which Mrs. White claimed to possess. Perhaps you, as an Adventist, were incapable of writing a disinterested account of Mrs. White’s “prophetic gift;” previous to my editing of this article, I noticed that it was meandering, overburdened with excessive references to redundant and frequently unknown sources. Your summation of the intrinsic differences between Mrs. Whites partisans and enemies left a great deal to be desired, as well. If the quotations which I used in substantiation of my case are accurate, then I see no reason to alter the references to them. Might I further remind you that Wikipedia is largely patronized by users who are non-Adventists, and therefore the use of accepted Adventist sources is superfluous. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luciuscrassus (talk • contribs) 13:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC).
- Regarding the title, please see my above earlier comment under the section "Title". If you have a recommendation, please supply it. I request that you show me the benefit of the doubt per the assume good faith policy. In my edits I have attempted to give a balanced portrayal. In particular, I have mentioned many critics and linked to their online books, if available. What could have more detail is specific reasons critics give to doubt White's inspiration. Perhaps you could contribute here. I disagree that the sources I have cited are "redundant and frequently unknown" - this could perhaps be argued for a couple but the majority are highly prominent. Regarding your last comment, Wikipedia's NPOV policy is that all major viewpoints be presented. One such major viewpoint is that of critics, one is that of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in this case (both nuanced viewpoints themselves). For the Adventist POV, of course references will be from Adventist sources. Colin MacLaurin 14:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Mainstream" Adventst Scholars
I added a "citation needed for the following, but I believe that is not sufficient. This section needs to be re-worked. As the article already states, there is a diversity of views about EGW's inspiration among SDAs - including among scholars. Who are the "mainstream" scholars, who made the judgement they were mainstream, and what criteria were used? I think this section should be deleted until it can be presented in more careful detail, but I will simply make that suggestion for now and see what others think.
"Typical mainstream Adventist scholars today believe [citation needed]:
- she was inspired by God... yet she was not infallible (without error)
- her writings are important to and relevant to the Adventist church today... yet must not form the basis for doctrine
- her writings are inferior to the Bible and non-canonical... yet superior to ordinary Christian literature
- she was culturally conditioned to some degree... yet she was not limited to the culture of her day only, but transcended it to some degree
- she borrowed from other authors... yet was not without discrimination in her inspired usage"
Gogh 02:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Many of the applicable references can be found on the rest of the page. See WP:LEAD for what a lead section is all about. In general the lead section is a condensed version of the rest of the page, so if the citations appear in the body then it is sufficient. If you want to copy references so that they appear in both places then feel free, but as such I do not think the statements are totally unfounded. Ansell 23:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
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- I do not see the many applicable references later in the page that you suggest should be there. I do see summaries of various positions, but for the most part I do not see substantiation for categorizing some positions as , for example "mainstream". I think you are in danger here of creating more of a theological article than an encycclopedic article. I think you are better off summarizin what the official church documents say on this subject, and then indicating - briefly - what the range of views within the church might be. If you are going to go into the fine distinctions, and describe some as mainstream or majority, then you better find some pretty good support for these claims.Gogh 07:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)