User talk:INkubusse

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[edit] Esma Redžepova

LOL! Gosh, I can't believe we (the editors of the Romani people article) completely forgot about including her in the "Music" subsection of the article!! Thank you for including her in the article. --Kuaichik 21:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, so it's been taken out. But I'm thinking of putting it back in once the Romani music article is edited to include that statement. (Considering how notable she is as far as Romani music goes, it probably should include more detail on Esma Redžepova than it currently does.) --Kuaichik 06:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Maybe the fact that she lives in Macedonia is the problem here... Naw, I think it's just because most people outside Europe have never listened to Romani music in their lives! (The closest they have ever come to that is probably Django Reinhardt, or perhaps the Romani songs in Time of the Gypsies.)
Sorry for the awkward way I began the first message here. It's just that on the Romani people discussion page, we were arguing about all kinds of things (whether the census is right or wrong, whether the idea of all Romanies being thieves is right or wrong, all kinds of ridiculous issues)...and completely forgot about the subsection on music! --Kuaichik 23:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Makedonij

Samo sonceto e postaro od Makedonija

Pozdrav i do tebe brat,samo taka napred.Mokta e vo slogata i obedinuvaneto.

[edit] POV

Поздрав брате. Ако сакаш да видиш Бугарски POV погледни ја оваа страница, National Liberation War of Macedonia. Сите Бугари што учествуваат тука, користет анти-Македонски сајтови како promacedonia.org и macedoniainfo.com. Ќе видиш дека јас учествувам со NPOV [1]. Мојето корисничко име беше Frightner ама ме блокираја дека им пцуев на некој Грци и Бугари што ја вандализираја страницата. 124.168.105.254 19:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] some help

If you have time and will some help would be welcome on the Ilinden Uprising talk page :)

thanks Capricornis 07:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

нема проблем, кога можиш / тогаш. јас се вклучив беэ никаква намера да ширам некојаси пропаганда, него највеќе оти статијата беше тотално неадекватна, али веќе се иэморувам.

поэдрав, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Capricornis (talk • contribs) 04:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

If you have objections to the Sandanski’s article, you should probably start participate in the edits and discussions there (I can’t handle it just by myself). MatriX 11:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] your comments on Future Perfect Sunrise's page

I laughed so hard when I read them :))) Македонски живец! <- (for the ones that do not understand Macedonian and are reading this page, the previous means "Macedonian Nerve!"  :))) Capricornis 04:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Invitation to join wikiproject R. Macedonia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_ROMacedonia Capricornis 04:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You speak Macedonian? Then you speak Bulgarian

I am surprised that you have not included Bulgarian in your linguistic skills. Obviously not native, but certainly grade 3 or 4? Certainly Bulgarians can understand 'Macedonian' very well; but, I am told, the reason they do not include it as a language skill is because they consider it to be a Bulgarian dialect. Perhaps you can explain to me why you exclude Bulgarian? Blagodaram. Politis 14:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure. I don't include it because I don't speak it. I understand Russian, Ukrainian, Slovak etc. nearly as much as I understand Bulgarian. I don't have any knowledge of its grammar and its standardized vocabulary, I just understand it because it's a Slavic language (just like the others). Of course you're told that they consider the Macedonian language a Bulgarian dialect, they always say that, it's part of their propaganda. But, in fact, Macedonian is far more different than Bulgarian, than Croatian - Serbian, Ukrainian - Russian and so on... Now, the language of the Macedonians is way older than the language of the Bulgarians, since the Macedonian Slavs were speaking it way before the Bulgars came, but the Bulgarian was the first to become formal. So, if one of these languages is a dialect, it's the Bulgarian, cuz they stole it from us (the slavic-speaking people of Macedonia). You don't deserve my answer, because the sole purpose of your comment (message) was to offend me. Well, you didn't. Thank you. If you are seeking a productive conversation with me, I'm looking forward to it. But irritating people is not something I'm into. INkubusse 16:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Even though former Prime Minister, Ljubco Georgievski, might agree with his map of expanded Bulgaria, he should also remove such statements and include them in a blog. Personally, I also find superfluous many unhelpfull statments made some users about the (unrecognised) Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus by (presumably) Greek Cypriots users. How can we converge our understanding if one guy say to his neighbours, I want your land and I want it ethnically purified? (no Greek says that about RoM / Skopje). There have been wars of liberation/occupation, then came treaties and unfortunate exchanges of population by politicians and people who wanted peace. The result was that they regulated the borders for a better life. Politis 10:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] deletion of WikiProject RMacedonia

You might want to comment on the deletion of WikiProject RoMacedonia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion#Wikipedia:WikiProject_ROMacedonia Capricornis 20:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] As a family friend

  • It is a familiar story, we are all ‘victims’; that attitude was especially encouraged in the former Yugoslav republics of Serbia, Croatia and Macedonia. But (fY)RoM exists and that is a miracle, a victory. Greece is adamant that the country must exist, independent and prosperous, that is why so many Greek businessmen have been re-investing there since 1991, promoting a positive image of the country.
    • I don't understand your point about the 'victims'. I see myself as a victim, because I have a very hard life, especially concerning national freedom. I don't see why Greece wouldn't be adamant that this country must exist, but all I can say about the Greek businessmen here and their corporations, is that the people here haven't seen anything good from them, so far. Especially not with OKTA. iNkubusse? 16:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


  • Now Athens seems to be proposing the constitutional name verbatim, with an addition: Republika Makedonija–Skopje. As for the minority… Greece and Bulgaria fought some wars and exchanged their populations to solve such matters; that is why, like France and Germany, they became close friends after WWII. But then came Yugoslavia and its Macedonian republic reclaiming the presence of a 'Macedonian minority’ and publishing maps against Greece down to the Aegean.
    • Athens' proposal is simply outrageous and whatsoever unacceptable by the Macedonians. Especially the addition: Skopje is a goddamn city! As for the minority, the problem is that the Macedonians didn't have a state before Yugoslavia so that they could claim the presence of some minority. But now, not only that this republic claims it, it, itself, the Macedonian minority in Greece is starting to raise their voices. Rainbow party is one example. However, I don't need to hear it on TV, I have been in Greece (once or twice a year) and I have met a lot of people there, naturally. Well, guess what: I have met many people in its northern part who understood and spoke my language (not Bulgarian, Macedonian). I have talked to them, and they don't seem to be pretty happy with the way you treat them. They feel like Macedonians, I have heard it from them, not from some Yugoslav historian or politican or whatever. iNkubusse? 16:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


  • I empathise with the people who left, fled or were expelled from Greece as Slav Macedonians (SM), I understand their anger and deplore Athens’ inability to address it, but that is a Greek affair. On the other hand, today, the SM in Canada, Australia, etc cannot have any credibility in Greece (or even Bulgaria) because their cause has been high jacked by extremists publishing maps, vilifying Greece’s sacrifices during WWII, refusing to accept the presence of Greeks in Macedonia, creating blogs with war symbols.
    • We should all empathise with such people, it's human. But I don't think they had some 'cause'. It was more like a struggle for existence, don't you think? Nowadays, those blogs are generally made by young people from Australia, USA, Canada and EU, whose parents used to live in Greece (Aegean), Bulgaria (Pirin) or Yugoslavia (Vardar). As for the maps, this map from 1913, made by Dimitria Chupovski, should do the job. I don't think they're all extremists, it's just a map showing the presence of Macedonians on the Balkans (the places with a significant Macedonian population). My attitude is nowhere near irridentism, but strongly for human rights. And why do you have to call us Slav Macedonians? Do you have any clue that I'm a Slav? You haven't even seen me! iNkubusse? 16:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


  • In ROM I met great people; I have been to Trnovo during the festival. There are many good academics in Skopje against the irredentist nationalism and the Alexander fantasy [2], [3], [4].
    • I'm sorry, I haven't met any great people from Greece, who would keep on chatting after the part "where are you from". I mean, I've met some cool girls and guys there, and it's always the same: getting to know each other, talking about some benignant topics and the "where are you from" part. It's a nightmare. It's like I'm telling them "I'm from Satanland". Too bad though, I'm pretty into knowing people from other countries. iNkubusse? 16:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


  • As for the minority. We could say that the SM of Greece are as different from those of ROM, as the citizens of ROM are different from those in Bulgaria or Serbia. Their language (or dialects) is not the same as the official language established in Skopje since the 1950s. And do you know the biggest opponents against SM returning to Greece? The answer is from the lips of an official from the Ministry of Information in Skopje. It is the members of their family who remained in Greece and took over the family properties. Many SM from abroad do not want Greek properties (that issue was often settled with the exchange of populations), they want the properties of their SM family members in Greek Macedonia who identify as Greeks.
    • I wouldn't agree about the difference between the Macedonians of Greece and the Macedonians of R. Macedonia. As I said, I have talked to many of them, they speak pretty much the same language. Of course not the official literary language; but the people from Ohrid, the people from Strumica and the people from Kumanovo speak as much different from the official language as the Macedonians from Greece. In other words: the Macedonian dialects from Aegean Macedonia (northern Greece) are nearly as close to the literary Macedonian language as the dialects from R. Macedonia. About the properties, nicely said. You can imagine how many of my friends have grand parents who lived in Greece, and I've heard all of their stories. They don't want any properties in Greece, that's for sure, and they don't seem to keep in touch with their families there. It's a completely lost part of their lives for them, they don't even think about those times, believe me. But I'm concerned about the people who remained there, especially about the ones who now identify as Greeks. Isn't it weird to you that they identify as Greeks? iNkubusse? 16:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


  • ROM has a very real history, it requires new historic skills, healing skills - that is its greatness, it does not require seekers of artificial ‘greatness’. But, no offense intended, so long as it is based on a symbol discovered in Vergina in 1977(!), on the crude appropriation of many Greek and Bulgarian historical figures (who, admittedly, were not as clear cut Greek or Bulgarian), and the publication of 'maps', it will never discover itself. It will only give the right to outsiders to constantly interfere.
    • I don't care about the prosperity of this state as much as I care about my national identity. The symbol discovered in Vergina is also discovered in many Macedonian churches and it was used by the Macedonians here since ever. No matter whether they were Greek, Slav or something else. That sun is my only national symbol, I can't identify myself with some flag designed by communists. The publication of political maps doesn't concern me, but I don't see anything wrong with maps showing the Macedonian population in Greece and Bulgaria. iNkubusse? 16:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


  • Well, that is what I think for the time being. Politis 14:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I guess we can all change the way we think, and especially the attitude. I used to hate Greeks, but now I simply hate what you're doing. I must admit: even now, I see every Greek as an SS soldier or something like the boogie-man. And the reason is not some propaganda, or that I'm a bad person (I truly hope), or a nationalist or the like, it's simply the way you treat us. Even since I was a little kid, whenever we went to Greece (and that happened a lot), you treated us like scum, in every possible way. Then, when I grew up a bit and started to meet many people on the Internet, I thought maybe you wouldn't be that harsh... But, sadly, I was wrong: I can't even start a conversation on IRC without some Greek using obscene terms. Even if I said "IM FROM FYROM, OK?", the answer would always be "YOU'RE NOT A HUMAN BEING" or such. Please prove me wrong! iNkubusse? 16:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Oh, and thanks about the last comment on your talk page, you answered instead of me. That's true, I exaggerated. Though, at that time I didn't take Wikipedia that seriously. I'm very glad you understand my frustration and I truly hope it was not ironically said. iNkubusse? 16:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello fellow Macedonian

I seem to like your approach in some issues where I've noticed your contributions. You'll be surprised to know that unlike most compatriots of mine I have no problem calling your people Macedonians. My only concern is when this is used by many ethnic Macedonians to raise land and history claims. So, if you are of those who criticize this and this, you'll always find me by your side in the name dispute. NikoSilver 19:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I really can't say I criticize those, to be honest. But I strongly disagree with the ultra-nationalists and with the idea of a greater Macedonian state, because all it can bring to us is sorrow. We don't have the power, nor do we have the reason for any territorial expansion, it's ridiculous! But you can't expect me to give up the rights of the Macedonian (or "Slavic-speaking") minority in Greece. I don't hate any of you and I don't want any of your land, but what your government was (and is) doing to the Macedonians there is simply outrageous, something I can't just forget! As for the "history claims", it's a very sensitive and even more vague topic! I have only one thing to say about it: you haven't analyzed my blood and you can't know my ancestry! Therefore, we can't discuss about the heritage. Anyway, by using the name "Macedonia", I, personally, am not alluding to any territorial or historical claims (it's simply what we call ourselves), so I believe I can count on you. :D iNkubusse? 20:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I guess we're close, but let me just push it a little bit with a few questions:
I don't understand this "question". (I really don't!) Please be more precise. iNkubusse? 18:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
It's a statement of fact, not a question. You either agree or you don't. NikoSilver 11:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Of course I agree! But I don't get your point... iNkubusse? 01:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
My points were (1) the word "sizable", (2) the fact that there had to be a civil war for them to be treated fairer, (3) to show you that those things are not easy, by bringing an example you are very familiar with. NikoSilver 14:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • What is (and was) "my" government doing to the ethnic Macedonians? (sincerely, I know much less than you think) NikoSilver 21:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
You're trying to say that you've never heard of the Greek civil war...? And everything before that... And everything after that... Funny, I hear it all the time from the old people who were expelled. iNkubusse? 18:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, many people were exchanged due to treaties. And yes, many people were prosecuted, but they were prosecuted for being separatists and communists, not necessarily for being of another ethnic group. Greek communists and separatists were also chased (and more fiercely may I note), and many of them still hold "grudges" to the modern Greek state for that, although I'm sure many agree that Greece was lucky to finally dodge its way out from the "eastern block". We had a civil war, what did you expect? Anyway, I'm sure you know that those things happened from both sides (lol, SFRJ and what Greeks called "Comitatzides" were notorious for that), but you must understand that the reasons were not ethnic, but political differences which took place in the birth of the Cold War. I'll be glad to hear your side of the story. NikoSilver 11:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
No, I was not talking about the political differences and peaceful exchanges. And please don't call it MY side of the story, because "the story" is told by ALL the grandpas and grandmas of my friends who have origins from Aegean Macedonia. Are you calling them liars? Or maybe Tito brainwashed them so now they think that when they were young, some Greeks came and raped one third of them, another third was killed, and the last third was just exiled and their homes burned down? You shouldn't make fun of this, and you shouldn't call it "my side of the story", it's inhumane. I don't blame you, of course, but it's a fact that they were prosecuted for speaking a Slavic language, not because of political reasons (well, most of them). How can little boys and girls be separatists and communists?! BTW, you might be interested in Marek Jankulovski's origin ;) Fools! He could've played for Greece now if it wasn't for your silly war hehehe :D iNkubusse? 01:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
There has been no serious academic or official record of extensive atrocities, but I am very sensitive for such crimes and I'd like this investigated if possible. I would argue that if there were such extensive atrocities, then the great majority of the Slavic speakers that have remained in Greece would not be voluntarily self-identifying as Greeks (especially to the point of being more nationalists than the "pure" Greeks). I repeat that the differences were never ethnic, but only political; that disagreeing Greeks were chased much more than your people by the same governments (with the blessings of the US and the other Westerners); and that most exchanges were under treaties. We got lots of communist Greek grandpas here too complaining about mistreatment during the civil war; they are not nuts either. The censi and all ethnographic maps showed that the part of Macedonia which is now Greek territory was predominantly inhabited by ethnic Greeks. Moreover, ethnic Greeks were also dispersed in great numbers further north (e.g. Bitola/Monastiri, Plovdiv/Philipoupolis, even Skopje etc) and those Greeks suffered the same [if not worse] discrimination, prosecution and forced assimilation by the politically (not ethnically) "rival" communist governments of Serbia and Bulgaria. Read EAM/ELAS/Dekemvriana/Greek Civil War/Greek Struggle for Macedonia. For the most complete analysis with dozens of ethnographic maps and argumentation read Wilkinson, H. R. (1951). Maps and Politics; a review of the ethnographic cartography of Macedonia. Liverpool: Liverpool University Press. NikoSilver 14:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Such political differences are thankfully well behind us now. Neither Greece nor any of its northern neighbors is flirting with communism anymore, so the very reason for the sufferings is gone. We don't need that back, but we should not disregard that whatever happened was because some great powers argued on how to share their "lots"! Your lot went to the Soviet side, our lot went to the Western side; but we both suffered. NikoSilver 14:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • BTW, "my" government loves the 2.6 million Macedonians here. Does "yours"? Does it call them "simply as what they call themselves" too? NikoSilver 21:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
"My" government doesn't love anybody, except the Albanians. And I don't have a problem with the Greek people from northern Greece. I call them "Greek people from the region Macedonia", what else should I call them? They say they are Greek, I call them Greek! I say I'm Macedonian, you call me a Slav. iNkubusse? 18:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
That "except the Albanians" is probably a response to my first "non-question" I presume... :-) I seriously doubt it, but I can't overlook that those feelings are unfortunately mutual between the two ethnic groups. For the other part (Greeks from the region of Macedonia), you are so terribly mistaken: They do self-identify as plain "Macedonians". Read the article to see that even our prime minister does. I suppose the only logical thing would be to respect their self-identification, as you request the same for your self-identification. Regional self-identification cannot be viewed as less important to citizenship self-identification, because self-identification as a concept is not compatible with any kind of political borders. So, equal terms, or no deal. Logical? NikoSilver 11:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Yep, logical (at least I'm honest). But that's why we have the famous problem, the everlasting naming dispute! :) And since we can't prove who the real descendants of the Ancient Macedonians are (see: your quiz:P), we can NOT decide whose right it is to use this holy name! :D But you can't deny this: we don't have another name; they (or you) do! We can't call ourselves Slavs, or even worse - Slavomacedonians! (That's the worse possible solution, believe me!) But you can call yourselves Greek Macedonians, or just Greeks, and it wouldn't hurt you that much, would it? I admit it, I haven't spoken to a Greek Macedonian about this, but I'm sure that the name Greek is not a degrading term for them... I understand that they want to call themselves just Macedonians, but we have a problem here, and if you don't open your minds for a less harmful solution, you won't solve anything. I'm starting to think that there's a third party here, trying to mess things up for both of us. This is just too exhausting... :( iNkubusse? 01:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
As I never understood why "Slav" can be an insult to a Slavic speaker, you will probably never understand why "Greek" can be an insult to a Greek Macedonian. I suspect that both want exclusivity, and none wants to add it since they consider it a pleonasm, which I find very lame. However, other options exist, and I'd be of those who support that we both disambiguate to end this. NikoSilver 14:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I think you misunderstood something. When I said ""My" government doesn't love anybody, except the Albanians.", I meant: This bloody government doesn't love us; This government doesn't love anybody; This government ONLY LOVES the Albanians. You see, so far, it has only made it better for the Albanians. You don't want to imagine how it is to be a Macedonian here. I bet it's better to be an American in Baghdad! And I'm not referring to a specific political party (neither VMRO-DPMNE, nor SDSM); all governments so far have been anti-Macedonian. That's why most of the young population here are anarchists... iNkubusse? 02:06, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Lol, we argue that the Greek government is anti-Greek here too, but, hey, that comes with globalization! NikoSilver 14:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
You just confirmed my "theory". I said that you haven't analyzed my blood, and you don't know my ancestry (haven't I?). Maybe I'm just as Greek as you, who knows lol :D My point is that you shouldn't call ME a Slav, since you don't have any idea (even) what I look like! BTW, nice essay you got there, it's pretty amazing. I like the last part the best (I admit being the least capable person on earth for practising it), but self-criticism won't make it any better. In fact, none of us is highly capable of it, but it's up to us to try. ;) iNkubusse? 18:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. Blood is completely irrelevant, not only because we can't know who screwed my great-great-grandmother, but mainly because all modern historians think that "genes" are equal among races (well, all racist theories are heavily criticized as you may notice). Moreover, Onassis', or Kennedy's, or Einstein's son could very well grow to become a total dork, while at the same time the daughter of the ultimate loser could very well grow to become Madonna. So if one generation only can turn your "genes" upside down, then you can very well imagine what 100 generations can do to me (or you) since Alexander's time (lol). Thing is, the guy self-identified as Greek -period. He also was tutored by an Athenian Greek philosopher, and he spread Hellenism, and he created the "Hellenistic civilization". But that's beyond the point, because modern Greeks can very well be dorks regardless. :-) NikoSilver 11:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... I don't see why you think I would disagree: Racist theories are ridiculous; smart people's offspring can become stupid and vice-versa; the guy self-identified (as science tells, SO FAR) as Greek, he was gay (I'm not a homophobe FFS!), he spread Hellenism (unlike his father) and he created the most nonsensical civilization (which was quite close to Hitler's ideas). But that doesn't make him an ethnic Greek! :D It just doesn't. Here's something new: I self-identify as Japanese, lately... Konichiwa! :D lol iNkubusse? 01:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I never thought you'd disagree, why do you think so? However, I still notice you're trying to make peculiar associations: "SO FAR" cannot change 1000 years after his era (in the 6th century AD when Slavic speakers first arrived), and it certainly cannot change after mid-18-hundreds when your people started identifying as such. You are right, though: Self-identification is not enough. However, if you not only self-identify as Japanese, but you also speak fluent Japanese, you were also tutored by famous Japanese philosophers all your life, and you also believed in the Japanese religion, and you also lived with Japanese, and you also united other Japanese, and you also fought with the other Japanese against the traditional enemies of the Japanese, and you also spread the Japanese way of life to foreigners that you conquered etc etc, then you are Japanese, say the academics; that's why you really aren't. NikoSilver 14:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Re "gay", I too am "straight but not narrow". Technically we'd call him a "bisexual", since he also enjoyed what we call "gay stuff" now. But that is an anachronism: The separation of human sexual behavior to "straight"/"gay"/"bi" etc came much later, during the Romans. At his time there was no such thing as "straight" to begin with. It's like I start now a new separation (e.g. those who pee in the toilet vs those who pee in the urinals), and then I start criticizing those who did it otherwise in the past (ah, those old guys were amphi-pissers!). We had a dispute resolution in Alexander's article a while ago, and that was the result. NikoSilver 14:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Modern historians (who disagree with racists concepts), think of ethnicities as a set of values, customs and traits. Those, you will agree, are more preserved within modern Greece (chiefly the Greek language which is essentially the same, the ancient monuments, political values like democracy, few ancient Greek customs which are still preserved, names and toponyms, etc). Regardless of that, I'm all eager to share those with a speaker of a Slavic branch of Indo-European like you (or anybody else), but I don't see how this can happen through confrontation. I think we have more to share, than to separate. I think we have some common Balkan customs, we have a common religion, and ("above all", as nationalists would argue) we have common "traditional enemies". It is to our best interest to be together. It is to the best interest of those "traditional common enemies" not to, and I can't believe that the "naming dispute" (lol) is not actually endorsed by those "common enemies"; at least in part. Think about it. NikoSilver 11:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
It's true that we share many common characteristics, and I'm always in for broadening my views and my knowledge. I've made contact with many interesting people from the neighbouring countries, but it never works with Greeks. I've never met a Greek person who would regard me as a normal human being, and I visit Greece more frequently than you think. The conclusion? What? I'm a nationalist and a xenophobe? Or the other side maybe? As for the "common enemies", I'm not sure if I get it. I mentioned a third party (somewhere...), and I believe that's exactly what you meant with the "common enemies" and the "naming dispute", but I'm not sure. Write "Y" if I'm right, and "N" if I'm wrong, so that they won't understand ;) iNkubusse? 01:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
There is more than one, that's why I used plural. Greek nationalists say that the traditional enemies of Greece are primarily the Turks (obviously) and to a lesser extent the Albanians (we were in an official state of war until mid-80's and they have repeatedly raised territorial claims for Epirus) and much less the Bulgarians (due to their surprise-invasion after the Balkan League in 1913 -when they lost-, due to the Nazi occupation in 1940's when they controlled parts of Macedonia -when they lost again- etc). Of course there are many ties with all of them now (many Albanian economic immigrants work in Greece, Greeks have fantastic relations with the Bulgarians, and the Greco-Turkish relations are much better too). In turn, your people were liberated by the Ottoman Empire too, they had a civil war with the Albanians, and face some unification claims by Bulgarian extremists. On top, we have all the arm-dealer-countries enjoying havoc so as to expand their business. This is where you press "Y", if you know who I mean. NikoSilver 14:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad I'm having a polite chat with you, and although we may disagree in certain issues, I never thought you are not a normal human being. I hope this is mutual. I too visit your country often, and I also run a business up there, maybe that's why we understand each other better than the rest. A final note: If we, the simple people, don't manage to set the record straight, then wtf can we expect from those dumb politicians that we got? NikoSilver 14:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Hey, just to let you know, I read your last message and I'll answer a bit later (due to my real-life problems), but I want you to read the unofficial anthem of your region Macedonia. Observe this: you drove away the barbarians. Sweet! The original is vulgarus, which generally meant Slavs or non-Greeks, but now, the Bulgarians claim that it referred to them (them as in modern Bulgarians). Either way, I'm still proud to be a barbarian :D And I just love my neighbours. :D iNkubusse? 04:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
It says that Alexander sent away the barbarians, not Macedonia itself, plus I've never heard of the "vulgarous" version, and neither of the two audio links says so. Regardless, quite a lame piece of propagandistic text, I agree. NikoSilver 11:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eager?

Heh, well, if you saw how much Macedonia-related editing I've been doing lately, you'd have given me a barnstar :-) So, yeah, while that project exists I'll be part of it, why not? (Will be watching you guys so you don't get yourselves in trouble, mwuahuahah...) - You're right though about the mk-0. Sure, there's still the "would want to learn oodles more languages" babelbox on my page, so yeah, if I need help I'll gladly take up your offer. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

No prob, I'm always in ;) iNkubusse? 01:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

Hello Alexander.

I'm א.שטיימן from the he.wikipedia. It is good to have someone from Macedonia that will be able to assist us with Macedonia-related articles. My method is translating the articles from here abour Macedonia. If you want, I can translate articles that you will write. I believe that the most important articles that we need is About the politics and geography of Macedonia (the articles here are too short.

I will be happy to work with you if you would like it.

regards from Israel, תחי מדינת ישראל 20:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Благодарам

Hi iNkubusse, Thanks for the kind offer of translating services! No, I don't speak Macedonian (mk-0), so I may have to call upon that offer at some stage!! Cheers, AWN AWN2 01:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Macedonian Wikipedians' notice board

Hi, I just wanted to tell you that using this noticeboard might prove really useful. I hope we can work together with the help of it. --Laveol T 21:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] thanks a lot...

...for the translation. sinc, --Soman 16:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nikola Karev

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Nikola Karev‎. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. TigerShark 21:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

This also applies to your recent editing of Dame Gruev‎ and Yane Sandanski, plus any other articles where you may have contravened the guidelines defined in WP:3RR. Thanks TigerShark 21:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. If you feel that other editors are also contravening WP:3RR then this can certainly be looked into - it would be really useful if you could provide more details on where and when you feel they may have done this. However, if each individual is only reverting once or twice and you are reverting more times to match their total reverts, then it is likely that you will be blocked and they won't - because the 3RR rule applies to individuals. To answer your question, you should not keep reverting in this case. Instead you should try to achieve consenus by discussing directly with the other editors or raising a discussion on the article's talk page (you may find WP:CONSENSUS useful). Thanks TigerShark 22:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] License tagging for Image:Mk-Makedonski jazik.ogg

Thanks for uploading Image:Mk-Makedonski jazik.ogg. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

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This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 23:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Odd question

It might seem strange to you, but there's something about your letter "Г". I was reviewing your alphabet with the help of a couple of Macedonians (my colleagues). What they couldn't explain me was why in some words they use "Г" with a stress (like in "Гурговден"). They knew when to use it (in rare cases, they say), but not what the rule behind it is. This has bothered me from a few days - could you enlighten me about it. Don't worry it's not some kind of joke - I just want to know it from, let's say, general curiosity (I've got a bit of a problem with it). --Laveol T 20:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting (why strange?). I don't think there's a rule about it, it's not a "Г" with a stress, yet just a regular letter. "Ѓ" is written only when "Ѓ" is pronounced :D That's about it. I think that "Гю", "Гя" and "Гьо" are used in Bulgarian instead of "Ѓу", "Ѓа" and "Ѓо" in Macedonian. E.g. "Ѓурѓа - Гюргя"; "Ѓаково - Гяково"; "Ѓорче - Гьорче". Sometimes we transliterate it in English as "Gj". I don't know what else to tell you, if you want to hear its pronunciation, maybe I could send you an .ogg file. I hope I helped you. iNkubusse? 09:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. So we use я анд ю and ь for these sounds, but why "д"? It sounded somewhat like a "д" when they pronounced it and maybe this is the main reason I fail to understand (or to be precise - the main reason I want to know why). Nevermind my never ending questions - thanks for the help and happy editing. And don't forget the noticeboard - it can surely be turned into something useful. --Laveol T 10:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

If I may butt in here with my linguistic 2c, it sounds like what we are dealing with here is the voiced palatal plosive, symbolized as [ɟ]. It's like a "g" sound but with the tongue pronouncing it a bit further towards the front of the mouth, as if moving it towards a "j". That's why it corresponds to "gja", "gju" etc. combinations in other languages. It does sound somewhat similar to a "d" or "dj"; in fact, the place where "d" is pronounced is only yet a little bit further toward the front of the mouth. HTH :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Where did you find that "д", Laveol? It's definitely incorrect and needs to be replaced by something else. "Д" in Macedonian is not that close to the Czech, Slovak, or even Serbian and Croatian "Д/D". Serbs use "Dj" to transcribe their letter "Ђ", but the Macedonian "Ѓ" is closer to "G". However, "Дј" may sound close to "Ѓ", but you'll get the correct pronunciation if you push your tongue forward (closer to the teeth) after pronouncing "Г", not "Д" (although in both cases you get a similar sound). But, the sole letter "Г" (not "Гј") is way closer to "Ѓ" than is "Д" (not "Дј"). FPaS, voiced palatal plosive is exactly what this is (its voiceless equivalent is "Ќ"). I had no idea that its IPA character was "ɟ", thanks for that. I heard the sound sample and it's pretty much the same as "Ѓ", but still, if you had the chance to hear me pronouncing dělám and ďaleký, and then Gjurga, I'm sure you would understand. Bottom line, "д" shouldn't be used instead of "ѓ". iNkubusse? 18:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity disputes resolution

Please, look at Wikipedia:Macedonian Wikipedians' notice board. I have proposed a way of dealing with such articles. There must be some kind of rules which can help us avoid the endless edit-wars - so I propose formulating a set of rules which we all should follow. It is a compromise from the current situation of most articles. I hope you like the suggestion. --Laveol T 18:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Pretty amazing, Laveol, I couldn't believe that you wrote it (please don't get me wrong). That's what I'm proposing since ever, it's the ultimate neutral solution on which Wikipedia's history articles rely. That way, we first let the user know that the article is about a revolutionary from Macedonia, whose ethnicity is vague, and then we present them all the sources about that revolutionary, so that they can decide what the revolutionary actually was. Good job, but I don't think some of the others will agree. iNkubusse? 20:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it'll be that tuff persuading them. I have another thought - all that ethnic stuff is not really that relevant to the articles about every single revolutionary. Deeds mean much more then the dispute. So maybe an article should b created (like Macedonia naming dispute) in which to present both POVs on their ethnicity and on the original page of the revolutionary, we leave only "... considered ethnic Macedonian in Republic of Macedonia and this and that neutral secondary source and Bulgarian in Bulgaria and this and that source". Only sourced info is going to be added (it is going to be added at all). I think it sounds pretty fair. I've already informed Foreigner and Jingiby - we'll wait and see what they think. This is for the better of the articles - I'd love to see the energy wasted into edit-warring turned to real work on the article.

Oh, I know it might seem strange that I turn my views, but it doesn't happen for the first time since I started editing Wikipedia. I view as some sort of personal growth :) --Laveol T 20:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Hi!

Hi! Longlive our Macedonia!!!--Real Make 18:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

You may be interested in this dispute [5]. It involves the deletion of the historic song "Makedonsko Devoiche" aswell as the deletion of the epic songs: Zajdi, Zajdi Jasno Sonce, Jovano Jovanke, Uči me majko, karaj me, More Sokol Pie.


Ireland101 23:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zdravo

Hi. I would just like to ask what you think about an article highlighting the differences between Macedonian and Bulgarian. There is already one for Differences between standard Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian and Bulgarian and Macedonian have more differences than them. Alex 202.10.89.28 11:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if we need one, they're clearly different languages. However, knowing the fact that Bulgaria doesn't recognize the Macedonian language, placing the facts on a single article might prove useful. But please, don't expect my help, I'm very busy in real life, I also have some problems with my PCs (Windows, you know how it is..) and I have limited access to the Internet, but the main reason is, I don't have the nerves! I have to replenish my spirit, I'm very tired from some Wikipedians. Of course, a very strong negation from Bulgarian side is expected, and I simply don't have enough power to resist their provocations, my brain hurts :( So, I guess I'd be glad to see such an article, but I'm afraid I don't have enough nerves to help its creation. iNkubusse? 15:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arbcom case

I've taken the whole set of Macedonia-related edit warring to the Arbitration committee. You are named as a party to the case. Please see WP:RFAR#Macedonia. Thank you, Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Picaroon (t) 00:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NOB

Hello INkubusse, you may be interested in helping to improve the quality and resolve POV on the "controversial" article People's Liberation War of Macedonia. Please consider it. Thank you for you time. Лилјак 10:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Macedonian alphabet

Hi INkubusse! Thanks for the edit on the sandbox article. Any other suggestions/comments are welcome! Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 02:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: editprotected

To request a change, you need to use the {{editprotected}} template (no {{tl}}) as it adds the page to Category:Wikipedia protected edit requests so that admins can see that an edit has been requested. I added {{tl}} after I made the change to disable the {{editprotected}} template so that the page no longer appears in the category. mattbr 22:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Logically :D Thanks. iNkubusse? 22:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Hi,

You might be interested in expanding this article Ancient Macedonia (Republic) . Ireland101 (talk) 13:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia closed

The above arbitration case has closed, and the final decision may be found here. Any uninvolved administrator may, on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working on Balkans-related articles if that editor fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, the expected standards of behavior, or the normal editorial process. Discretionary sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the administrators' noticeboard, or the Committee. For the Arbitration Committee, Picaroon (t) 02:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MKD

Pomisli za učestvuvanje vo ovoj proekt, ako imaš nervi :D. Sakam da ima povekje statii za Makedonski sport/muzika/gradovi-sela-opstini - ne mora da ti e gajle za istorija/geografija/antropologija/lingvistika. Pozdrav od eden Aleksandar do drug. BalkanFever 04:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't have the nerves, I'm sorry. I do care about history/georaphy/linguistics, that's why my nerves are dead in fact. And that's the reason for my extended absence. Maybe later, 'cause I also care about the other matters. ;) --iNkubusse? 05:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Znam deka ti e gajle - ama nervite ti se skinati od tie statii. Pridonesuvanje na drugite statii moži kje ti ja dava motivacijata što ja nemaš. Koga misliš vremeto e dobro za tebe, otvorena e porakata :). BalkanFever 08:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sandbox article

Hi INkubusse, I have made some changes to the sandbox article on the Macedonian alphabet, if you'd like to take a look and make any comments/suggestions. I have also addressed Laveol's comments on the sandbox talk page. (→ sandbox link, → sandbox talk link) Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 06:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] United Macedonia salute

Здраво инкубуссе, можеш ли таа слика шо ја кладе на страницата, United Macedonia salute да ја уплоадираш на imageshack во голем оригиналниот формат? Па адресата да ја поставиш овде? Фала и голем поздрав!!Makedonia (talk) 17:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Хмм, не разбирам баш што треба да направам, ама ако знаеш ти, имаш целосна поддршка од мене! :D Инаку ја немам сликата воопшто во компјутер, ја избришав уште тогаш (ако мислеше на тоа). --iNkubusse? 19:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

аха, добро, чим ја ибриши ништо тогаш, немат проблем, ја барам оригиналната слика во поголем формат. Случајно ако ја најдиш, би те замолил, да ми ја пуштиш! Голем поздрав! Makedonia (talk) 19:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Избори

Ако имаш време, погледни кај статијата за изборите. Бидејќи ти си таму, можи ќе имаш повеќе информации да додаваш. Поздрав BalkanFever 02:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Ќе видам што можам да направам. Ако не друго, барем информации ќе ти дадам, па ти среди ги. --iNkubusse? 22:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Hi, I was wondering if you know where I could get any pro Macedonian user boxes from? Thanks Ijanderson977 (talk) 20:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh well, if you're looking for templates, I don't think there are any at all. There used to be some userboxes made by Macedonian users, but I don't know if you'd like them, the content is pretty nationalistic. All I can think of now is this page, but I don't think you'll find any use for those userboxes. Maybe I can help you out with creating something new: our most popular problem at the moment is the naming dispute with Greece, which blocks our way to NATO, and it may cause troubles for joining the EU as well. Another one is minority rights in Greece and Bulgaria (those two countries don't even recognize the Macedonian minority, the nation as a distinctive ethnos, and its language and culture), but that one is extremely sensitive. If you want some other info from me, please let me know. And thanks for your keen interest, I really like your user page ;) --iNkubusse? 21:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] None? :-(

None taken? Damn where did I go wrong?...;-). If you find the term 'Aegean Macedonia' mentioned before 1944 or 1945, sing it out loud. You will certainly not find in the original documents collected by the 'State Archives of the Republic of Macedonia' in Skopje. According to my research, the term emerged in the context of communist phraseology and eventually took hold after 1947, but mostly (only?) as a designation for the 'ethnic Makedonci' who left or were expelled from Greece during the Civil War. Politis (talk) 18:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds interesting. You wrote, 'they were Macedonians (from Macedonia) and they were from the Aegean - Aegean Macedonians'. You said this was before the war. Which city did those people who called them 'Aegeans' live? Most of the Greek Slav Macedonians lived (live) away from the Aegean coast, especially before the war because there was no infrastructure along the coast. They were (are) mostly mountain and inland people. Sometimes older people get confused about time and place, perhaps they really meant that it was after the war. Also, there is absolutely no trace of the Vergina flag symbolising anything at all until 1984, when Greek historian Martis started using it and soon after the Slav Macedonians in Australia. I respect your stating that it represents everything you stand for, but I really dont understand why. Thanks and feel free to ask me equally obscure questions :-) Politis (talk) 12:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It looks ugly and spiky to me and I am sorry both countries have made such a deal out of it. As I said, my research indicates that the first recorded reference to 'Aegean Macedonia' emerged in the mid-1940s and the term started becoming established from the late 1940s. I cannot imagime people referring to the 'Aegeans' before those dates; you are the first person to mention it (probably anywhere on the internet) that is why I say older people do not remember clearly. Politis (talk) 17:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Names have been changed across Europe since the Greeks and the Romans started spreading centuries ago. Greeks names have been changed in Turkey, Bulgaria and your country. Names have changed in England, Scotland, France, Spain, etc... In Greece the names have either reverted to their original Greek, or were changed from Slavic, Ottoman, Albanian, etc, into Greek. As for the 'young girls', sure it's tragic, just like the 1.5 million Greeks were expelled or exchanged from Turkey. But we forget/choose not contextualising those events. Between 1901-1963 one million Greeks emigrated for various reasons. Between 1901-1921 around 400,000 Greeks emigrated and the overwheling majority was from 'Old Greece' (i.e. not from Crete, Macedonia and Thrace), that's 17 percent of the population! During WWII 8 percent of the population died. Huge areas were depopulated. People left for various reasons and we cannot simply choose a particular group (ex. Slav Macedonians) and say, they were expelled. Also, names were changed in your country, Uskub, Kalkandelen, etc. The names of the people were forcefully changes or adapted by adding the suffix 'ski'. Shit happens and then come propagandists who preach only the neighbour's shit smells bad... Politis (talk) 17:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RfD nomination of Template:Film-screenshot

I have nominated Template:Film-screenshot (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) for discussion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. —Remember the dot (talk) 01:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the help

Thanks! Not automated nonsense!--213.40.96.218 (talk) 04:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

What then? Manually produced nonsense? --iNkubusse? 04:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

No. Thanks for the help --213.40.96.218 (talk) 04:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't wait to see what this turns out to be... --iNkubusse? 04:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)