Template talk:Infobox Writing system

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This template is an infobox for articles about writing systems.

The purpose of this page is to outline what the end result will be with the Infobox WS template. Feel free to add your two cents to anything, or tweak any ideas.

Contents

[edit] Color coding

Color coding will change depending on the type of writing system.

Abjad
Alphabet
Abugida
Syllabic
Manual
Pictographic
Logographic
Undeciphered
Alternative (perhaps the default)

Please add more missing categories.

We should probably use a modified version of Template:Infobox Language/family-color for colors.--The ikiroid (talk)(Help Me Improve) 17:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

If there are just going to be a handful of colors like the above then they could easily be built directly into the template. However, that being said what about hybrid or unusual cases? For instance Egyptian hieroglyphs... which are to varying degrees 'Pictographic', 'Logographic', 'Syllabic', 'Alphabetic', 'Undeciphered', et cetera. Or how would Quipu be classified? --CBDunkerson 23:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Most of these are originally based on one type—chinese has syllabic features. Consider:
  1. 马(mǎ)—Horse
  2. 吗(ma)—[Question particle]
  3. 妈(mā)—Mama
  4. 骂(mà)—Scolding
all of which modify the 马 radical. If there are multiple traits maybe we could have the color of the first mentioned be the color of the template.
Also, we need an "other" or "alternative" for things like Leet, AIM speak, and shorthand.
The template also probably needs blue links under "type:" I tried to add a link to "Abjad" in the Arabic one and the color turned white. Thank you for helping us out. Is there a way to make bluelinks under type not cancel out coloring?-- The ikiroid  20:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I made a change which may help for this... the color switch now recognizes either 'Abjad' or '[[Abjad]]'. It would be easier to make the 'type' always act as a link (i.e. '|type=Abjad' produces Abjad by default), but then we would have a problem with things like Alternative and Manual not really going where they were intended. We could also set up a separate switch to translate 'Abjad' to Abjad and 'Alternative' to whatever page that should map to. --CBDunkerson 23:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fields

I suggest (not necessarily in this order):

  • Name
  • Type (as specified by color code)
  • Language(s) used for
  • Geographic region (if applicable)
  • Demographic group (again, if applicable)
  • Time period
  • State of decipherment
  • Parent WSs (e.g., Etruscan for Latin alphabet)
  • Child WSs (e.g., Cyrillic for Greek alphabet)

--Siva 00:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we need also to add logosyllabic as a category-type. In addition to the fields suggested by Siva above, we should also find room for:
  • Example- an image or block of text written in the script, for illustrative purposes. This could either be an inventory of graphemes (but won't be practicable in all cases), or perhaps an example of the same semantic phrase, the script's name written in that script, or some other. Would need to be sure that the example displays correctly in all browsers, so maybe an image of the script rather than unicodified text would be better.
  • Creator- where that is known
  • Unicode blocks and ranges
  • Currency- perhaps not needed if explicitly mentioned under Time Period, but need some flag to indicate whether it is still in use or not.

--cjllw | TALK 00:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I made changes for the colors, name, type, languages, region, demographic group, time period, script sample, and creator. I wasn't sure how to handle the remaining items so held off on those for now. For instance, should 'parent' be a single previous item or trace back as far as is known? Should 'child' include 'grandchildren' or just direct descendants? Are there specific categories to 'state of decipherment' that we would want to list or just whatever the user inputs? Also, I don't know what the 'Unicode blocks and ranges' should look like. --CBDunkerson 00:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
What category would shorthand systems such as Pitman's shorthand fall under? Do we need to create a special "shorthand" category?
As for CBDunkerson's concerns: for "state of decipherment", the terms undeciphered, partially deciphered, mostly deciphered, and deciphered by xx(decipherer) in xxxx(year) should be used where applicable, but it should also be possible for a user to elaborate on these. (Note that if a writing system has never been in any need of decipherment, this field should be omitted.) "Unicode blocks and ranges" would look like "U+0621&endash;U+FEFA" (for Arabic, in this case). Make sense?--Siva 23:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I added a field for this and an example of use to the Arabic table below. Is that what you were looking for? --CBDunkerson 12:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that is what I had in mind. --Siva 20:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ISO notice not needed

I don't think the ISO part is needed, since that only applies to languages. But we should keep the IPA notice. I tried to remove the ISO part, but it messed up the template, so I guess we'll keep it in for now.-- The ikiroid  18:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Preview

Here's what I got for the Arabic Alphabet:

Arabic alphabet
Type Abjad
Spoken languages All dialects of Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, and Pashto
Time period 600 A.D. to the present
Parent systems Phonecian
 → Nabataean or Syriac
  → Arabic alphabet
Unicode range U+0621 - U+FEFA
Note: This page may contain IPA phonetic symbols in Unicode.

The code is like this:

{{Infobox WS
 |name=Arabic alphabet
 |type=[[Abjad]]
 |languages=All dialects of Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, and Pashto
 |time=600 A.D. to the present
 |fam1=Phonecian
 |fam2=Nabataean or Syriac
 |unicode=U+0621 - U+FEFA
 }}

It's almost ready.-- The ikiroid  19:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I got rid of the ISO stuff and added options for 'children' and decipherment 'status'. Another example of use: --CBDunkerson 23:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Sarati
Type Alphabet
Spoken languages Quenya
Created by J. R. R. Tolkien|style="padding:0.3em 0.5em;"| ~1919
Time period V.Y. 1179-
Child systems Tengwar
Note: This page may contain IPA phonetic symbols in Unicode.

{{Infobox WS|name=Sarati|type=[[Alphabet]]|languages=[[Quenya]]|creator=[[J. R. R. Tolkien]]|date=~1919|time={{ME-date|VY|1179-}}|children=[[Tengwar]]}}

[edit] Implemented in articles

I've added our two example versions into their two respective articles. I still have to add an image to them, though.-- The ikiroid  14:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Sister Writing Systems" option added

I added the option to display sister writing systems, i.e. under the "Hiragana" box, "Katakana," "Manyogana," and "Hentaigana."-- The ikiroid  16:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Well done

This template seems to be working well. It even looks like it may have settled the perennial argument at Leet over whether the 'language' infobox should be included... by switching to this one. Good job by Ikiroid in tracking down and bringing together the right people to make this happen. I'm sure there will be further updates and alterations as the template becomes more widespread, but this is a solid foundation with alot of nice design ideas from the contributors on this page. Nice work all around. --CBDunkerson 00:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

And thanks to you CBD for your invaluable technical expertise - now I know who to turn to the next time I'm scratching my head over some template code arcana. Cheers! --cjllw | TALK 02:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree. We could hypothesize and plan all we wanted, but in the end someone had to impliment the ideas. Thank you.
By the way, I think I built the "Sister writing systems" option wrong....sorry....--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 02:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I looked at it when you made the update, but missed the problem. You just had inconsistent capitalization of the parameter... they are case sensitive, so {{{Sisters}}} is different than {{{sisters}}}. I standardized on lower case for consistency with the other parameters and it should be ok now. --CBDunkerson 11:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, thank you so much. I'll try out the parameter.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 14:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ISO 15924

IMO a variable iso15924 should be added for those in ISO 15924. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 19:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a parameter such that if you add '|iso15924=Fred' it should display a new row (under where 'Unicode range' is) with a link to ISO 15924 and whatever code you put in ('Fred' in this example). --CBD 20:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
CBD, one more for you :-) : Wikipedia_talk:Userboxes/Writing_systems#User_iso15924 Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Can someone implement Category:Scripts without ISO 15924 code - i failed, don't know how the if else works. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 01:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I made a change which I think will address this. Let me know if it isn't what you were looking for. --CBD 16:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
This template is broken. It apparently automatically added İske_imlâ to the list of scripts without ISO 15924 tags. This is incorrect. The script is Arabic. -- Evertype·✆ 20:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Add a '|iso15924=<whatever>' parameter. I'll look it up/add one for that script. --CBD 15:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually... it looks like this writing system doesn't have a unique code in ISO 15924. At which point I don't understand the objection to it being in a category for scripts that don't have ISO 15924 codes. It's a writing system. ISO 15924 does not give it an independent code. Are you objecting that it should use the same code as Arabic alphabet? I note that the ISO 15924 page doesn't give lists of all the writing systems which you may be classifying as 'close enough' to not need their own codes... thus nothing in the published standard (that I can see) identifies systems which are intended to be clumped together under a single code vs those which just don't have a code assigned yet. Is there some documentation of this? If not, we can't just 'guess' or define groupings without references. --CBD 16:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
İske_imlâ is an orthography using the Arabic script. Accordingly, it has an ISO 15924 code, namely Arab. -- Evertype·✆ 18:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you are seeing my point. Given that İske imlâ uses mostly the same characters as Arabic (though it also includes some Cyrillic symbols) the above is a perfectly reasonable position to take... but it isn't actually stated anywhere in the ISO 15924 standard that I can see. So how are we to describe İske imlâ as using ISO 15924 code 'arab' when the ISO 15924 standard doesn't actually SAY that? And how does this apply to writing systems in general? Should we guess when ISO 15924 considers two writing systems to be covered by the same code? Clearly there are points at which divergences are considered significant enough to have separate codes (e.g. 'latn' and 'latg'). If the standard does not say İske imlâ uses code 'arab', and so far as I can find it does not, then using that code or other similar judgement calls seems unsourced / original research. --CBD 12:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand your difficulty. Spanish, Swahili, and Guaraní use the Latin script, and are described with "Latn" in ISO 15924. Arabic, Persian, Urdu, and Tatar all use the Arabic script, and are described with "Arab" in ISO 15924. It is an error to say that İske imlâ is a different script, or a "daughter" of Arabic script. It is not. It is Arabic. You can tell that by looking at the letters. How is this unclear? -- Evertype·✆ 12:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Uh, ok... true or false: The character 'қ' appears in İske imlâ writing, but not in Arabic writing. --CBD 13:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parameters

Could someone please add to this talk page a full list of all the parameters available and what they produce/what they're intended for? Thanks! —The preceding signed comment was added by Angr (talk • contribs). 12:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, for the time being, you can look at the examples here, as well as Hiragana, Syriac alphabet, and Coptic alphabet, which have pretty complete infoboxes. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help needed

I've just used this infobox for Braille and Moon type, but I'm not sure about some parameters. I'm pretty sure (but not 100%) both are alphabets (as its name suggest :-) but I have no idea about a lot of other parameters like family, sisters and children. I let all of them empty, but the default behavior of the template is to show it as 'artificial script'. Probably this is the case for Braille, but it seems that Moon type is heavily based on the shapes of Latin letters, and therefore I in doubt this should be reflected in the 'family'. Also, can both writing systems for the blind be considered sister ws? (Maybe all Tactile alphabets?) And finally, I suppose that Japanese Braille, Korean Braille, Tibetan Braille and so on are children of Braille. Sorry for some many questions, but I haven't found the answer neither on writing system nor alphabet. Maybe the usage of this infobox can be clarified adding more documentation. Best regards. --surueña 09:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that 'Moon type' is definitely a child of the Latin alphabet and the various Braille variants children of the original. I don't know that I'd call Braille and Moon type 'sisters' as they don't have a common origin so much as a common function. Also, while it is probably important to always list at least the immediate 'parent' of any writing system it isn't always practical to list all of the 'children'. --CBD 23:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, now I understand all this (and thank you for updating the Moon type article). Best regards --surueña 07:31, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Manual

I found Abjad, alphabet, ... , and Logograpic entry in wiki. But I am not sure about "Manual". What this type intended to? For which script use this typpe? --RedDragon 08:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I assume this is meant to refer to a Manual alphabet... aka 'sign language'. --CBD 14:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I updated Ja template page.--RedDragon 04:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Instructions below

If this template is entered without parameters, the heading says "Instructions below", but of course this will be incorrect 100% of the time an editor places it. Why not make that placeholder text read "Instructions at template:Infobox WS", linked to the actual instructions heading? —Michael Z. 2006-11-07 00:23 Z

I think that was what it originally did, but as this page was the only one where you would typically see the template with no 'name' parameter entered someone changed it to 'instructions below'. I'm fine with either. --CBD 14:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
no include / include only should solve it? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
To show different messages depending on where the template is? Yeah, that'd work. I'll put it in. --CBD 19:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colour coding

The current colour coding needs to be changed. The dark blue used to indicate an alphabet makes the name of the alphabet almost impossible to read in the Infobox. Of course, the title of the article makes it clear, but the absence of these minor annoyances makes the "Wikipedia experience" better, and makes the encyclopaedia seem more professional.--Еstavisti 10:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Support; the example I found is the dark brown used in Malayalam script. David Kernow (talk) 21:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Fine with me. Note that the colors and categories at the top of the page were the original proposal, but the actual implementation was a little different. The different classifications and associated colors can be seen on the template page itself. For instance, the brown noted above for 'Malayalam script' is the color for abugidas. Changing the displayed colors can be done easily. I'll try a lighter blue for now. --CBD 23:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Languages

Can we make the |languages= parameter optional? For some scripts (e.g. ciphers that could at least theoretically be used for any language the script they're based on could) it's not really relevant. --Ptcamn 12:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. --CBD 16:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
It's broken, I'm afraid. See e.g. Tengwar. Alatius 19:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'creator' d n imply 'artificial'

currently, if you put in a 'creator' field, the template adds in 'artificial'. However, that does not follow. Lots of scripts were adapted from an earlier script by a known creator, and may bear their name, but wouldn't be considered artificial. 'Phagspa in the Brahmic family is one. I don't know where to draw the line, but the editor should have discretion over whether both of these fields appear. kwami (talk) 23:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] native name for writing system

I think that it would be a great idea to add the 'nativename' parameter in the template, just like in the Template:Infobox Language. With this, we can show the writing system's name in it's native alphabet, abugida, etc. Kotakkasut (talk) 06:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)