Template talk:Infobox Country/Archive 4

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Talk archives for Template:Infobox Country (current talk page)
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Contents 1 bordered infobox with one row per row 2 Revert to old version - new version too big on pages, and too different 3 More parameters to eliminate more virtual rows 4 Browser Problems 5 Current look not stylesheet-friendly 6 Changes 7 Promlems 8 An opinion from a layman 9 Opera problems 10 Bullets again 11 Proposal for common look and feel for geographical infoboxes 12 Overriding font-family 13 Problems with table in a div in a div 14 Rendering problem - Browser related 15 Content Talk 15.1 Official language 15.2 Proposed addition of country codes 15.3 Census 15.4 Legacy infoboxes 15.5 Name of the inhabitants 15.6 Population estimates 15.7 Required images 15.8 Proposal: Add "Gini Index" below HDI (Please react) 15.9 Possible additions (as optional parameters) 15.10 Image field needs optional text field for comments 16 Other Talk 16.1 TfD nomination of Template:Zimbabwe infobox 16.2 TfD nomination of Template:Template:Country_infobox_data_(multiple TfDs) 17 Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#September 6 18 Unordered Talk 19 List of countries by population 20 "Common languages" 21 I added optional parameters 22 Include electrical and broadcast standards? 23 Modification for extinct states and provinces 24 Flag and seal accessibility issue 25 Cleaned up the template 25.1 Radical changes? 26 Flag position 27 Extra apostrophe 28 Modifying template 29 Flag border? 30 Footnotes and references question 31 Coordinates in IE printable version - print preview 32 Conditional linking capital and largest_city...? 33 official language(s) 34 Location image 35 Template name and "(s)" 36 Bug 36.1 Revert of David's edits 37 Added Nominal GDP 38 Government

bordered infobox with one row per row

I've updated MediaWiki:Common.css so that it's possible to have a bordered infobox with "merged" rows (rows without row borders), see for example Template:Infobox U.S. state (used by all US state artices, e.g. Colorado). Note that changing to this technique allows each row to be independently optional (using #if) and I think helps accessibility issues as well. Would anyone mind if I changed this template to use class="infobox bordered" and the mergedtoprow and mergedrow classes? -- Rick Block (talk) 16:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I have a test version in User:Rick Block/Template:Infobox Country that is visually identical as far as I know using separate rows for essentially all entries (without using infobox bordered - I couldn't figure out a way to preserve the current formatting). With each row being a separate row, some more of them could easily be optional (like DST). If anyone objects to this version, please speak up, otherwise I'll update the template to this version in a few days. -- Rick Block (talk) 23:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I tested the version out on my sandbox and I don't see a difference. If it helps, I am good with it. —MJCdetroit 13:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Along the same lines, I think we should add explicit parameters for each leader title and name, rather than a BR separated list. The non-intrusive way to do this is to add the parameters first and then update the articles. I'll include leader_title1, leader_name1, leader_title2, leader_name2, up to 5 (?) in the new version. -- Rick Block (talk) 13:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Please, see Wikipedia:Accessibility#Layout tables for a rationale of some of these changes. Thanks! --surueña 09:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I noticed two more accessibility issues in this template:

• No structural elements should be used for presentation purposed, so CSS styles should be used instead of the caption (|-) element.
• Also, the link to the flag should appear just before the image of the flag (and the same for the coat of arms) instead of "weaving" them in the wikicode. For example, in Lynx (or with a screen reader) it will be rendered as:

1. "Flag of Spain" "Coat of arms of Spain" (alt text of both images)
2. Flag of Spain (link to article)
3. Coat of arms of Spain (link to article)

But the correct order should be:

1. "Flag of Spain" (alt text of the first images)
2. Flag of Spain (link to article)
3. "Coat of arms of Spain" (alt text of the second image)
4. Coat of arms of Spain (link to article)

I don't know how to change the HTML myself, sorry, but it should be easy to modify the code without complicating the syntax a lot, and wihout changing the visual appearance in a graphic browser. Thanks! --surueña 13:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Revert to old version - new version too big on pages, and too different

I gave the new version a good run before reaching a conclusion but at this stage I have to say it is not working. It is

• too big and dominates pages — it covers nearly 60% of the width of an article.
• too visually different from the content around it.
• throwing other boxes and images all over the place.

I think overall it doesn't work and should be replaced by the original. I simply don't think it is suitable for pages. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 20:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you cite some examples? —MJCdetroit 20:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I have looked at 23 articles. The box in each stretches well beyond the midpoint of the page. Visually it is far too obtrusive. The United Kingdom is the just one example of a page mucked up by this far too large box. Sweden too is not well laid out.

I don't mean that I prefer the old version. The problem is that the new version has too many problems. It needs to be substantially smaller. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 20:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand. The problem with the UK box (being really long) would not be solved by reverting to the older style. And the box cannot be much narrower (see my post below). In short: reverting to the older style will not solve an issue with the box being to wide or too long. But I would like to see some screenshots of what you see. ☆ CieloEstrellado 00:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Which specific versions are you talking about? The new version from MJCdetroit with the added DST notes, or the new version with the changed row handling (from my test page)? There might be browser differences as well, so if you could say what browser you're using that would be helpful. Thanks. -- Rick Block (talk) 21:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

No Rick, I believe that Jtdirl is talking about the switch to the new style infobox created by CieloEstrellad on/about May 13th. —MJCdetroit 22:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Can I ask that we convert to the new row style first, before addressing other issues? -- Rick Block (talk) 23:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

FearÉIREANN: Can you please upload some screenshots? The box is 300px wide in my browser (OS X/Safari). My browser window is usually 1024px wide, but even at 800px wide, the 300px box doesn't take over 60% of the article's width. Unfortunately the box's width cannot really be much narrower, because it is limited by the map image which is 250px wide. I'd appreciate your input! ☆ CieloEstrellado 00:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I think FearÉIREANN means that it is too long.—MJCdetroit 00:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

FearÉIREANN complains that it is too long *and* too wide. See my reply above. ☆ CieloEstrellado 00:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. In any case, I think it looks fine. For the record, I use (Win2000pro/Netscape) and (Mac OSX/Firefox).—MJCdetroit 11:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

No, MJC, too wide. The problem is that many users will not have their browser open to the full width of the screen, as they may have multiple screens open. The infobox remains at the same size irrespective of the width of the screen. While the old one was suffiently small only to push text out of place when the browser window was half size, this box is so big that even at 80% it takes up more width than the text. At 100%, on the UK article I looked at it took up nearly 45% of the screen space. Wikipedia has strict maximum space for image usage - no bigger than 250 px to avoid causing display problems for people using 800 x 600. It needs also to have strict image space for infoboxes. Any infobox that takes up 50% or more of the width of a page is simply unacceptable. I was looking at it at 1024 X 768, my usual screen. When I changed it to 800 x 600 the infobox was massive and took well over half the screen even on full screen mode. Anything that does that simply isn't an option. The design does not take into account the millions of potential readers who are not on full screen, or are using 800 X 600. But the rules on design require us to produce templates capable of being seen as well on larger screens as on smaller ones, and as well on less than full screen as on full screen. This box fails that test, badly. (I tried to take a screen shot, but for technical reasons cannot.) FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 19:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The new version is 24em, the old one seems to have been 20em. I don't know what this translates to in pixels for most fonts, but the new one should be 20% wider (and the width should vary with the font size). If screenshots aren't possible, can you let us know what browser you use and what font setting? I tend to agree the current version seems kind of wide, although (per my request above) I'd really prefer if we can switch to the new row style before making too many other changes. -- Rick Block (talk) 23:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I took a look at the box at Colorado and, besides the smaller padding, the 'new row style' looks exactly the same as the older version of this template. Am I missing something? ☆ CieloEstrellado 07:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Colorado uses Template:Infobox U.S. state, which is similar to the old version (pre May 15th) of this template. The new row style I'm talking about for this template is the test version in User:Rick Block/Template:Infobox Country, which is supposed to look the same as the current version of Template:Infobox Country. The point is only to make each visible row be an actual TR row in the HTML table so the content is accessible from a non-visual presentation (like a screen reader). Content presented in adjacent multi-line cells with matching embedded BRs that define logical rows (visual sub-rows within a single HTML TR) is notoriously difficult for someone using a screen reader to interpret since they can't see these rows. I'm planning to update to the new (visually identical) version later today. -- Rick Block (talk) 15:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I've updated the template to this new version. If anyone notices any problems, please let me know. -- Rick Block (talk) 20:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I see the things you complain about as non-issues, really. For me, the new box's advantages trump its disadvantges. —Nightstallion (?) 16:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

You've said that before. What advantages? A larger box that interferes with the page around it? A design that clashes with, not complements, the page it is meant to blend in to? What exactly are these supposed advantages? I've looked at 20 counties and in every case the new box's impact is negative. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 18:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks better, is more functional, and actually takes up *less* space on my system configurations, not to mention it appears to be *less* intrusive to me, not *more*. I'm not sure which infobox you're seeing. —Nightstallion (?) 20:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

More parameters to eliminate more virtual rows

I've added a number of parameters to make it possible to avoid presentation rows that split across cell boundaries, specifically for the leader_titles/leader_names parameters and the sovereignty_type/established_events/established_dates parameters. The additions are backward compatible, so articles using the existing parameters are unchanged. Before making wholesale changes to articles using the template, I'm soliciting feedback here. The current style is:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
{{{leader_titles}}}                                 |   {{{leader_names}}}
-------------------------------------------------------------------
{{{sovereignty_type}}}<BR>{{{established_events}}}  |   {{{established_dates}}}
-------------------------------------------------------------------

where leader_titles and leader_names may both contain BRs for multiple entries and the trio of sovereignty_type, established_events, and established_dates have a complex interrelationship (first "line" of established_dates is shown adjacent to sovereignty_type and subsequent "lines" are intended to align with mutliple lines from established_events).

The changed method is:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
 - {{{leader_title1}}}                 |   {{{leader_name1}}}
 - {{{leader_title2}}}                 |   {{{leader_name2}}}
 - {{{leader_title3}}}                 |   {{{leader_name3}}}
 - {{{leader_title4}}}                 |   {{{leader_name4}}}
 - {{{leader_title5}}}                 |   {{{leader_name5}}}
-------------------------------------------------------------------
{{{sovereignty_type}}}                 |   {{{sovereignty_note}}}
 - {{{established_event1}}}            |   {{{established_date1}}}
 - {{{established_event2}}}            |   {{{established_date2}}}

with paired leader_title and leader_name params (up to 5, all optional), and a new param for a note to appear on the same line as the sovereignty_type and then paired event/date params (optional). Other "subrows" from the template are presented with a leading dash, so this presentation information is included for these subrows in the template as well.

If there are no objections, I'll update the usage comment and start updating the articles using this template in a few days (and there are enough that if anyone is willing to help, I'd appreciate it!). And, if anyone is wondering, the point is to make presentation of the information via a screen reader (such as a blind user might use) more understandable. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I've spent the past few days updating these parameters in the country articles using this template. There seem to be a farily large number of country-specific templates that are not used at this point. Is there a mass TfD pending or something? -- Rick Block (talk) 04:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The Template:Country alias templates are left-overs from the standardization of country-specific template to this template. I have been meaning to put them up for TfD but keep forgeting. There really is no reason to have them around anymore. Unless there are objections I will start listing them for TfD in mass.—MJCdetroit 13:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Browser Problems

Is it just me, or does the infobox overflow to the right side on the Opera browser? I'm using build 8.54 of Opera (the latest, I believe) on Win XP. Thanks! -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 14:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

In use on a country's page, or as shown on the template page at Template:Infobox Country? It slops over to the right on the template page with Safari and Mozilla, but not in use on country pages. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

While in use on a country page. I've taken a screen shot of it : see here. (Note: It appears on all pages using this template; and not just the India page). -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK} 08:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Any update on this? -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}14:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect this relates to the font size you're using, which makes the template width (defined in ems) narrower than the images that are included. Does it look normal if you bump up your font size? -- Rick Block (talk) 17:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Current look not stylesheet-friendly

The current look of this template is not easily replicated by other templates, for example the very similar template:Infobox City. There's some discussion there about adopting this template's look. Rather than replicating this look, I think we should create a CSS style to be used by this and similar templates (of which there are hundreds). The "infobox" style in common.css is meant to be a common style for infoboxes. I assume there's a sentiment that the existing infobox style is simply too plain. I don't really care whether we improve the existing infobox style or create a new style, but I think the look of geographical infoboxes should not take custom styling per template. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I've created a simpler version using "stylable" techniques in User:Rick Block/Template:Infobox Country that looks very similar in most browsers - with the notable exception of IE (which seems to not support the border-spacing property). I've created another version in User:Rick Block/Template:Infobox Country1 that uses "stylable" techniques that preserves essentially everything except the 1em gap between the row borders and the outside border (and this version should look the same for all browsers). I'd like to agree on a uniform look for all the disparate geographical infoboxes. Can we pick one of these as a proposed standard look, to be codified as a style in common.css? -- Rick Block (talk) 15:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I do agree that one look for all geographical infoboxes would be nice. It goes along nicely with efforts to use a standardized template for each type of geographical location, i.e.—country, city, state, province, county, etc. For the record, I like the User:Rick Block/Template:Infobox Country1 a little bit better. That's my opinion. What's yours? —MJCdetroit 01:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Changes

Hi. Great job on this template! I made a minor correction according to Internet Explorer 5.2 (the last version to Macintosh platform, I think). I hope I didn't mess something. The text I changed was aligned to the left, now is correct (centered). (sorry if my english is not very good). Mosca2 23:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Promlems

This template have problems when someone try to print on Firefox. For example, try to print (at least preview) United States on Firefox 1.5.0.4 (Mac or PC) and look at the second page, the Infobox disappears. Can someone solve this? Mosca2 15:37, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

An opinion from a layman

I just wanted to say that I'm a huge fan of this tag because it is so pretty! Specifically the font. Very trebuchet-ish, and very nice.

Opera problems

This template goes horribly wrong in Opera 9. Fix it please, template boffins! --estavisti 17:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Forgot to mention, {{Infobox Country2}} is displayed with no problems. Maybe that will help? --estavisti 18:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a screenshot? Or is it like the one discussed above? -- Rick Block (talk) 18:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Bullets again

I really think this box should have bullets instead of dashes. (See #Bullets or dashes? for a previous discussion).

Is anybody against bullets over dashes? I'd appreciate your input. ☆ CieloEstrellado 06:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Bullets are not consistent with the dozens of other geography related infoboxes. Changing to bullets is perhaps possible for all of them, but I suspect this would not actually happen and would simply increase the one-off nature of this one.

BTW - very few people have responded to the thread above (see #Current look not stylesheet-friendly). I'd really like the infoboxes for a city, the national subdivision its in, and its country to have similar looks. As it stands, we have three very different styles. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for common look and feel for geographical infoboxes

I've created page for discussion about creating a standard look and feel for geographical infoboxes, please contribute at Wikipedia:Geographical infoboxes if you're interested. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Overriding font-family

It is a very bad idea to put your own font-family into this template (or anywhere for that matter). Wikipedia has a system of stylesheets that works very well, allowing a consistent default look, and also allowing people the ability to customize the entire site with their own stylesheets if they so desire. The problem arises now that you've put a font-family directive here, away from all the centralized, predictable places.

For example, in my own stylesheet, I've changed the fonts to "serif". Bang, I get a consistent look all across Wikipedia that I like. Your style, in addition to naming a specific font, goes for a default of "sans-serif". Now whenever I read a country article, the infobox stands out like a sore thumb.

Twice now people have attempted to undo this unfortunate element of the infobox, but it looks like some editors here are very attached to it. I just wanted you to know that there are good reasons for not overriding the font-family, and that you are breaking a well-designed system and causing inconvenience by doing so. --Yath 02:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Formatting issues: It is also almost never a good idea to use other style changes, such as font family or color. Unless someone can come up with a really good reason this particular template is a special case, I'd say the font override needs to go. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

How do I change in my monobook.css the font for this particular template if it doesn't seem to be tagged by a class, if you know what I mean? ☆ CieloEstrellado 00:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to drum up support for use of "infobox geography" (which is now a class). I've changed template:Infobox U.S. state to use it, see for example Michigan. I think if you override the font you'll see that it looks very much (except for the issue discussed below) like your version of this template. -- Rick Block (talk) 16:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no objections to the use of "infobox geography" class. —MJCdetroit 16:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Problems with table in a div in a div

The current version of this template seems to create rendering problems if the enclosed table is too narrow (I see this with Iraq and various other countries) and in conditions I don't quite understand (see #Browser Problems, I suspect the problem shows up when the em-width of the div is less than the pixel width of the map - try setting your font size really small). I suggest we use a simpler markup, like the one at User:Rick Block/Template:Infobox Country1. Anyone have any problems with me making a stab in this direction? -- Rick Block (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I would agree to your proposed version if you manage to make it look exactly the same as the one currently in use. I still see some differences, like the dividing lines occupying the full length of the box in your version, whereas in the current version they do not. And some code "ifs" do not seem to be implemented yet. ☆ CieloEstrellado 00:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

There's a vesion in User:Rick Block/Template:Infobox Country that preserves the "not quite full width" separator lines, but it doesn't work in IE (I think this is a bug, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Microsoft to fix it). I starting working on this before some of the more recent ifs were added, and would certainly preserve all the existing parameter handling. Can you find a way to do the not full width separators without using a table in a div? -- Rick Block (talk) 04:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

And, there's a version using class="infobox geography" in User:Rick Block/Template:Infobox Country2. This one is what I'd actually like to migrate to (nearly all the styling is directly from the infobox geography class, rather than inline). -- Rick Block (talk) 18:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Note that common.css is apparently configured (by developer setting somewhere) to only be reloaded if it's more than 31 days out of date. To view this last version (which uses a style added to common.css less than 31 days ago!), do a "forced reload" (probably shift+reload) in your browser. -- Rick Block (talk) 01:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I've waited a good long time and no one other than Cielo has commented on this. I'll update to the version in User:Rick Block/Template:Infobox Country2 (incorporating changes made in the last month :) ) let's say on Wednesday unless there are any reasonable objections (I tried to talk to Cielo about full width vs. not quite full width separator lines, and he has refused to comment). -- Rick Block (talk) 01:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I would stick to the not-full width of separator lines. More aesthetically appealing. --physicq210 18:58, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue is that this format, with the not quite full width separator lines, cannot be easily replicated by other infoboxes and causes display issues (like I suggest above, try a really small font size). Don't get me wrong, I like the not quite full width lines as well. I just think "easily replicated" and "looks good at all font sizes" are more important. -- Rick Block (talk) 01:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Rendering problem - Browser related

I was just working on the Isle of Man page and I noticed a problem with the page rendering there. When there are categories to the left of the infobox, the [edit] link that should appear at the right side of the underline shows up instead on the first line under the infobox.

Is this something that needs to be fixed in the Isle of Man page, and thus maybe requires a usage note in the template's page, or else does it seem to be a rendering conflict caused by, say, nested <div>s or something? (I'm just guessing about that.) -- Eliyahu S ^Talk 14:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the same rendering occurs under Firefox 1.5.0.6 and Safari 2.0.3 (I'm on a Mac). I just tried it on a PC with IE 6.0 on Win XP and it did not happen, so it seems to be browser related. I'll try Opera when I get to my home computer, and also look for other pages with infoboxes to provide a comparison.... -- Eliyahu S ^Talk 14:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It's the {{portal}} template. I wouldn't worry about it, it's not supposed to be there anyways. ¦ Reisio 20:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

... it's not supposed to be there anyways.

Huh? Do you mean that the links to [edit] shouldn't be there? Or that the infobox shouldn't be there? Or that this {{portal}} template shouldn't be there?

You've just made me more confused.... :-( -- Eliyahu S ^Talk 21:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Now that I've looked at the changes you made on the Isle of Man page I understand a bit what you're talking about. You're saying that because the {{portal}} template was in the wrong place in the IoM page -- in fact it was not in text to the left of the infobox, but further down! -- and that a side-effect of the "collision" of the two templates was that the [edit] links got displaced in certain browsers....

Also, you seem to have fixed it by moving the template down, which is just fine, and I thank you, but it would have been easier to understand what you wrote had you added "I fixed it" or words to that effect. -- Eliyahu S ^Talk 21:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I saw some other things strange in that article and got sidetracked. :) ¦ Reisio 22:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Content Talk

Official language

Should we change "official language" to just "languages"? See discussion at Talk:United States#Official language.

Arguments for:

• Many or most countries do not actually have any official language, so the answer seems to be "None" in most cases.
• Changing the title to "languages" would allow us to use specific description of the status each language enjoys.--Cruzian 19:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd support that change. —Nightstallion (?) 20:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

We should be very careful with this one (if changed). It should be limited to only major and official/de facto languages with perhaps some way to distingish order. For example, in the United States English is the de facto offical language and Spanish the second most spoken language. French (I believe, not 100% positive) is the third most spoken lanuage in the US. I would say that it is fair to have English with a description stating that it is the de facto language and Spanish as the second most spoken but that French (and any other language) be left off. I wouldn't want this to be a green light to have just any language posted up there. We all know that someone will try. —MJCdetroit 01:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed addition of country codes

I threw together Template:Infobox Country2 as a testbed for finding some way of adding a quick reference guide to the various identifying codes used for various countries. I think this sort of stuff is notably absent from the current template, and it can be midly interesting in terms of sorting out how countries can go under different TLAs in different circumstances. Before I go any further though, I'd like to see if I'm entirely on my own on this one.

For this current draft, getting table syntax to sit happily inside an #if proved tricky, so I cheated and bumped the variables again into a second template, Template:Infobox Countrycodes, which I know is less than desireable in terms of maintenance ease and server load. If someone knows how to move the relevate code back to within that #if they will earn my undying affection, which may be turned out should that make them feel less creeped out.

I've inserted the field for now at the bottom just above the footnotes, but it's admittedly a little odd there, espectially as two codes derived from the ISO alpha2 (the currency code and the internet TLD) would appear above the original. Didn't have the chutzpah to try and stick it up somewhere more prominent, though, like under the map.

At the moment, I think the most useful codes to include are the two-letter and three-letter versions of the ISO code, a space most likely to be used by the IOC code (but should that be the same as the ISO, and the FIFA one be different, the FIFA could be used for variety's sake), and a space for the international vehicle registration code.

In terms of implementation, this could be rolled out onto the main template right now if we wanted, and various countries could gain this functionality only once the various lines were added to their initial includes, with the new section otherwise remaining hidden.

Alongside are some examples. I'm quite open to alternatives. The Tom 00:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Country codes
- ISO 3166-1	DE DEU
- Calling code	+49
- Internet TLD	.de
- IOC (FIFA)	GER
- Vehicle license plate	D

I think the vertical alignment, although a clever way to reduce the amount of vertical space consumed by these codes, is likely to make this information hard to understand for anyone using a screen reader (i.e. it introduces an accessibility issue). Perhaps these should simply be additional rows, combined with the internet TLD and calling code in a section labeled something like "Country codes"? Doing it this way, the shaded background and changed font and embedded table issues would all go away as well. The new section might look something like this. -- Rick Block (talk) 15:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not too friendly of this idea. I don't think the codes are really relevant information to be put on the box. And I also dislike the implementation, because it is a departure from the rest of the box. ☆ CieloEstrellado 06:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Census

Please, remove or make optional the census field, it looks stupid having "census" written above the name of the country. Afonso Silva 17:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the most recent changes by User:Rich Farmbrough and that seemed to help. The census above the country name was not his intension. —MJCdetroit 21:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, should be fixed now. Rich Farmbrough 22:05 23 June 2006 (GMT).

Legacy infoboxes

Hello,

I am member of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics. I am all for using 1 template for all instances of the same object type. As I was doing my currency clean up, I still find that there are many legacy country infoboxes. For example, I still see 4 for Bosnia and Herzegovina:

1. Template:Bosnia and Herzegovina
2. Template:Bosnia and Herzegovina infobox
3. Template:Infobox Bosnia and Herzegovina
4. Template:Country infobox data Bosnia and Herzegovina

I'm just wondering, is there anyone doing anything about those? --Chochopk 03:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I am working on a mass delete of the Template:Country infobox data XXX infoboxes (your #4).—MJCdetroit 03:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Name of the inhabitants

We should add to the template the name of the inhabitants of the country, i.e., for Spain: Spaniards, for Philippines: Filipinos, etc. I would add it myself, but never touched a template before. --euyyn 20:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Population estimates

Is there anyway to allow multiple population estimates to be represented in the table? I want to include both the CSA projection for Ethiopia from the 1994 census, as well as under it the 2005 UN estimate. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 21:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Required images

The flag/coat of arms/map images are currently requred, but as there has been some dispute over the validy of the image for Thailand's coat of arms, the Thailand page is currently broken. Could the template be modified to allow for non-inclusion of the coat of arms (and other images) in the case they are unavailable? (I might edit the page to temporarily show the prior version of the image.) Paul C 20:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, the size of the image and flags currently imposed in the template is not always sightly. --Bob 00:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: Add "Gini Index" below HDI (Please react)

I think that besides givin the GDP and a HDI which give average values over a whole country only, it's very important to also mention the inequality within the country itself. I think it's one of the basic facts to know about a country and deserves to be in this ttemplate. For one thing, it makes the figures GDP and HDI more weight, beacuse otherwise they may be so misleading for certain issues. Therefor I propose to add the often used "Gini Index" here.

Is anyone against this ? If no reactions, I would like to include this in couple of days / weeks. R U Bn @ e-builds 13:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I second. I would make it exactly like the HDI (value, rank, high/med/low), especially since there are a number of countries which are ranked but have no Gini value. _└ ^VodkaJazz / _talk ^┐ 12:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Possible additions (as optional parameters)

These tags were present in the Malta box before we migrated it to the infbox country. Maybe a couple of them will prove popular and be added:

• religion
• percent_religion
• national_bird
• national_plant
• national_tree
• national_poet

_└ ^VodkaJazz / _talk ^┐ 12:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree with vodkajazz. Why not makes these options optional? Maltesedog 18:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Tags you can add:

• International Motorvehicle Code, all counries have that, like Russia (RUS), United States (USA), Germany (D), Italy (I), Austria (A), Montenegro (MNE), France (F), Sweden (S) etc. {subst:User:CrnaGora/Signature}}

I'm sorry, but are those additions absolutely necessary? Some ISO codes (motor vehicle, sport, etc) were added and made the boxes look horrible. The box can only hold so much information before it just looks cluttered. Also, there was no consensus to the addition of these tags. Therefore, I reverted some of the recent changes that had affected all the infoboxes. Most of the possible additions mentioned above are very trivial and seem unnecessary —even in an optional setting. What's the national tree of Chile? See what I mean. MJCdetroit 14:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If you don't know the national tree it could be done as an optional item.. to be left out. For your information, the national tree of chile is the Monkey puzzle. Maltesedog 13:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

What about patron saints Maltesedog 17:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Where these recommendations ignored?

Image field needs optional text field for comments

I propose to add an optional field below the country's image so that it is possible to add a little comment below the shown picture. I found this need already twice when seeing images with ambiguous content.

For example, see Italy: The picture "Europe location ITA.png" marks two things: Not only it higlights Italy but it also highlights the European Union states. Now, what shall someone think of this picture in case it's unfamiliar to him/her? It could well be that what are the EU states would be Italy and the what's Italy would be its capital. How shall one tell? Either the picture needs to be replaced or the template should allow a comment explaining what the picture shows.

If you agree and add this option, please leave me a note on my Talk page and I'll update the Italy page (unless you want to do that) and will do so on other pages I might run into.

Tempel 07:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Other Talk

TfD nomination of Template:Zimbabwe infobox

Template:Zimbabwe infobox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. This maybe the last country specific template. MJCdetroit 19:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Template:Country_infobox_data_(multiple TfDs)

Template:Template:Country_infobox_data_(multiple TfDs) has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. This is to delete the templates that were created when the various country specific infoboxes were switched to this one. There have been some requests (see above) to delete them. Here is your chance to delete all of them at once.MJCdetroit 01:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#September 6

A bunch of country specific infoboxes have been nominated for deletion. You are all invited to comment on the discussion at the link above. Thank you. This is to delete the templates that were created when the various country specific infoboxes were switched to this one. Here is a further chance to delete another bunch of them at once. --Bob 22:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

and there are now a whole lot more up for deletion at :Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#September 7 --Bob 00:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Unordered Talk

Please leave this title for future discussions

List of countries by population

I am proposing to move the above article to List of countries by population in 2005, but also leaving it there and removing reference to 2005 UN data. This would allow list of countries by population to be updated with more recent data (which people are constantly doing anyway). Since this infobox references the article, I thought I would mention it here to see if there are objections. - DavidWBrooks 23:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

OK no objections, so move done. - DavidWBrooks 19:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

"Common languages"

Hi, given the occasion ([1]), is there any consensus here about what exactly the field "Common languages" is supposed to be used for?

1. A country's principal language, in those cases where it's not legally the "official language" (like English in the USA)?
2. A country's significant minority languages besides the principal/official language?

I'd say number 1 makes more sense (and then maybe we should actually have another optional field for "significant minority languages"), I just can't quickly find if that has been discussed before. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted the page, appears to be okay. This is a major infobox used by many important articles. - SimonLyall 15:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I know - but you sort of didn't really answer my question, did you? :-) Point is, a newbie was mass-inserting empty "common language" fields into all those places where the template was used, and that has triggered the question what the field is actually supposed to stand for. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Sorry, my misunderstanding. I didn't notice you had actually removed the field from the template - I thought you meant you had removed the entry from some of the articles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I added optional parameters

I added in some optional parameters so that the box may be used on the France article. ie parameters which allow for the addition on data from the metropolitan area of France. These would also work for other countries in the same position as France such as the US if wanted. --Bob 21:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Include electrical and broadcast standards?

I would like to suggest that the template have spots for the electrical standard a country uses (e.g. 120 Volt 60 Hertz, 230 Volt 50 Hertz, etc.) as well as video broadcast standards (NTSC, PAL). I'm not excited about making the modification to the template myself -- out of fear of messing things up. It would also be nice to know what others think about including these pieces of information. --Miken2005 00:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

No. Not here. It would clutter the box too much. Could you create an article or list on this subject somewhere else in Wikipedia? MJCdetroit 03:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Modification for extinct states and provinces

I have taken this infobox and modified it for countries which no longer exist - Template:Infobox Historical State

Main differences:

1. Unnecessary modern fields have been removed
2. Many fields are hidden, since not all information is available
3. Multiple entries for population, if values from different time periods are known
4. Similarly, multiple entries for area are possible, but this has been disabled for the moment
5. (and this is a big one) A start_date-end_date row near the top. It is possible to use this as a section to jump to previous and successive states, if known. The implementation of this is not so easy to document, so it is best to go to the sample one that I have put up in the entry on the German Empire

Secondly, I have modified this template futher to suit provinces that no longer exist - Template:Infobox Historical Province

The only difference here, apart from removing a few more fields, is the addition of sections for listing the entities that constituted the province, and those that this province then became. There is also a field for listing where this province exists today, but I might get rid of that

An example of this is in the entry on the Province of Westphalia.

Feedback and assistance would be greatly appreciated. — 52 Pickup 17:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Flag and seal accessibility issue

The flag and seal images are in different table rows than the links to the captions which are links to articles about the flag and seal. user:Suruena has suggested that this creates an issue for non-visual browsers similar to the other accessibility problems recently fixed. Curiously, I think the fix for this issue is to put the image and caption of the flag in a single table cell, and the image and caption for the seal in another cell, rather than have the images in one row and the captions in a different row. Note that this is effectively the inverse of what we did with the other fields. The difference here is that the semantic coupling is not row-centric but column centric, i.e. it's not

  first row header in this column:    | corresponding value in this column
  second row header in this column:   | corresponding value in this column

but

  <image of flag>    |  <image of seal>
   flag caption      |   seal caption

I don't think there's a way to fix this without changing the appearance. In particular, currently the captions are on the same "line". I'm thinking the change could be to put the image and caption in the same cell, separated with an HTML break. We could "bottom align" these cells, which would make the text line up but the images would not be vertically centered. Please see Template talk:Infobox Country test for how this looks. Anyone have any preferences about this? -- Rick Block (talk) 13:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned up the template

The old code contained a lot of redundant code thatI have removed, as some people appear to be afraid of visual changes, I have not changed the title format this time. _→AzaToth 20:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying I condone unilateral changes of this magnitude, but if there's going to be a shit-storm anyway I went ahead and changed the template to use the "infobox geography" class (which removes nearly all of the template-specific formatting code). What is that quote from Where The Wild Things Are? Ah yes, "Let the wild rumpus begin!" -- Rick Block (talk) 03:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Radical changes?

What is happening to the infobox? What is wrong with the old style and what is with the changes without consensus? --²¹⁰physicq (c) 04:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Other than "separator lines extend full width rather than not quite full width" what, exactly, is different now? The problem with the old style is that it was not done with CSS styles, making it not usable by all the other geographical infoboxes. See Wikipedia:Geographical infoboxes. User:AzaToth sort of forced the issue, but now that s/he has done this can we agree there's no important difference? -- Rick Block (talk) 04:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the version before I reverted included the name being outside the infobox. And while I commend the effort to standardize geographical infoboxes, I believe forcing it wasn't a good idea. Going beyond process, I will disclose my thoughts: I like the current infobox country style better, with name inside the box instead of outside (at least for countries) and separator lines not extending full width. However, I am will to go with any solution that incorporates both of these requirements. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 04:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I see you unilaterally reverted the recent changes. So, the version at Template:Infobox Country test is the version immediately preceding the latest (reverted) version. Side by side diff can be seen at Template talk:Infobox Country test (well, will be available there very soon). I'd encourage folks to carefully examine these, and make your preferences known. The "newer" version (now the "test" version) relies only on CSS styles from wikipedia:common.css and looks exactly the same as template:Infobox U.S. state, template:Infobox City, and template:Japanese prefecture. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Unilaterally? Nay, two others reverted before I did. Anyway, I don't see why there is a need to comply with CSS styles (or maybe due to my ignorance). --²¹⁰physicq (c) 04:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Geographical infoboxes. Creating "one off" templates with their own distinct look and feel, not easily reusable by the tens or hundreds of other similar templates at Wikipedia, is (IMO) a bad idea. Using CSS for the "style" is exactly what CSS is for, and allows us to create (and modify) a site-wide "style". -- Rick Block (talk) 04:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the version at Template:Infobox Country test so that it includes the name inside the box. To my eyes, the only significant difference is now the "full width separator lines" vs. "not quite full width lines" (and the test version has better behavior under some weird conditions, like if you set your font size very, very small). Unless anyone objects to this version, I'll update the actual version to this version on (let's say) Wednesday. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

user:AzaToth reverted back to the "new" version. I've copied the "old" version to template:Infobox Country test1 and changed the side-by-side comparison at Template talk:Infobox Country test to show the old one vs. the new one (regardless of which one is currently "live"), so folks can see the differences. I would encourage everyone to please stop reverting, and please start discussing. -- Rick Block (talk) 19:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm happy with the current (changed) version. However, I would wish AzaToth would be less combative in changing the template. --²¹⁰physicq (c) 22:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

A bit off topic: As a lurker of this tiny episode here, I agree that Carl (AzaToth) might have better proposed the new template aside. Sometimes he's, um, a bit bold :] (I remember when I first met him last year on a citation template and my reaction was a plain knee-jerk-revert as well :-). But he's a good template engineer and an overall nice guy and a good wiki-worker. The problem here might have been a little bit pre-triggered by the commentary-lacking revert by Nick C, who was obviously and understandably surprised by Carl's "boldness" (I was confused myself by Carl's initial edit summary). Nick's revert led in turn to a re-revert by Carl with a question mark as the edit summary — as a sign that he didn't know why his edit was refused. I do by no means have the intention to retro-inflate anything here and I applaud the end result that has been reached. I hope nobody bears grudges about this change here. As always, Rick did a fine job in mediating and Carl sponsoring his template whizzardry. Thanks to all for the good end result. --Ligulem 18:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, yea, I'm sorry for beeing to fast this time, I'll let it cool down now. _→AzaToth 19:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not have any objections with standardizing the CSS to the same as other geographical infoboxes. It's just a good idea and I actually thought this was done a while ago. There's not much of a difference (visually) when the side-by-side comparsion is done. Looks good. —MJCdetroit 00:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Flag position

It looks like somebody is editing this template for one reason or another. Will that person *please* restore the vertical location of the flag and coat of arms? I can't remember if the flag used to be centred vertically or aligned with the top of the coat of arms. Several countries don't use a round seal, but an elongated coats of arms, in some cases with either a crown or crest on top. See e.g. Denmark, Hungary, Norway, Greenland, Netherlands Antilles and Albania. A number of other articles are affected as well, but to a lesser degree, e.g. Croatia and Azores. When I look at any of these articles at the moment, it looks like the country in question has just lost a war with the enemy throwing its flag in the dirt.

Please fix this. I definitely don't like seeing my flag used this way. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 18:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

These used to be vertically middle aligned, and are again. The text used to be in a separate row, bottom aligned, but is now in the same table cell as the image (so the "caption" text for the flag and coat of arms is generally not aligned). Putting the image and text in the same table cell makes these cells of the table more accessible for (usually blind) folks using a screen reader. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The caption is a minor matter and this version looks a lot better. Thanks! Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 19:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Extra apostrophe

There appears an extra apostrophe in the title of some of the infoboxes, such as Canada and the United States. I can't figure how to get rid of it. Anyone else knows? -- Jeff3000 01:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. -- Rick Block (talk) 01:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Modifying template

The template produces a line "largest city", but that produces an AE/BE difference - in AE, the largest "city" in a country is the largest town, while in BE that isn't the case (London, for example, isn't a city, although it contains two). I noticed that the United Kingdom template has been modified, and I was wondering how to do that for other places that use the BE definition of "city". Thanks. Guettarda 14:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Resolved! Cogito ergo sumo 19:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Flag border?

The flags used to have a think gray line around them, which is very benefitial for country flags that have a large white sections on their edges. See Japan and slovakia for examples, it just does not look good. Compare with Japan

The US State template continues to have the grey border, see Texas

Can someone help? Thanks,

--JuanPDP 03:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning this (it's fixed now). -- Rick Block (talk) 04:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, one more question in this topic, I printed a couple of country pages and they are Ok in Mozilla, but with IE 6.0 the top horizontal border is missing. You think this is an IE issue? no big deal with this, I have not tried IE 7.0 and I realize this mignt not be a template issue. ! --JuanPDP 17:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes and references question

I had some questions related to Poland, (I created a user page that has the top of the article at User:Juanpdp/Test to show the issues.

Please note it contains something like:

area_rank = 68th |
area_magnitude = 1 E11 |
area=312,685 \<ref\>Administration area of Poland ... Law) - 322 577 km²\<\/ref\>|
footnotes = open bracket references  / closing bracket |

When the page is displayed

1) The first reference is in smaller font, but not the subsequent ones, (Tried withh div references-small, then everything is smaller, but the first line is the smallest.

2) The Area 1 E11 should display a reference to [3] but instead it displays a strange number,

3) On the Captial coordinates, it contains a "2]" that actually points to reference 1 (and also notice the missing opening square braquet

Or maybe just references should be avoided from the country infobox? They seem to work fairly well in Slovakia, (Except for the first reference that is in smaller font)

Thanks in advance, --JuanPDP 17:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Coordinates in IE printable version - print preview

Might be another IE 6.0 issue (Mozilla is ok) printable version displays the coordinates (no http for the tools geohack URL, that is good) but if you do printpreview (or ac--JuanPDP 17:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)tually go and print it), then the http://tools.wikipedia.de/~magnus/geo... shows up! and it ends up widening the whole box.

(POV: Anyways, Mozilla is my preferred browser, I just was seeing if there were differences when printing with it)

--JuanPDP 17:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Conditional linking capital and largest_city...?

Perhaps a perennial request (if so, apologies!) but since many countries' capitals also seem to be their largest cities, how about a #if: to combine the two in one entry ("Capital and largest city") rather than maintain the redundancy of the same city appearing twice...?  Regards, David Kernow (talk) 03:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I think "Capital and largest city" is simply too much text for the "label" side of the infobox. Does listing the same city twice really bother you? -- Rick Block (talk) 04:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point; might it be possible to automate adding (say) an asterisked footnote...?  Listing the city twice (and in succession) doesn't really bother me, but struck me as inefficient in the context of an infobox...  Yours, David (talk) 04:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

official language
(s)

Would it not be better to have

"Official"

"language(s)"

than

"Official language"

"(s)"

? as when I view Canada page --JimWae 19:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain this a little better? Do you want it on separate lines? Is the "(s)" ending up on a separate line? I'm not sure that I follow. —MJCdetroit 20:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the (s) - all 3 characters - is all alone on the next line --JimWae 20:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That's odd. I don't see it, on my mac (w/firefox or safari) or my PC (w/Netscape). Even when I make the window smaller the lines in the infobox stay all on one line. Try a different browser and don't log in and see what happens. MJCdetroit 00:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

FireFox OK logged in or not. IE6 OK only when NOT logged in AND using smallest text size. I have 1600x1200 resolution on Dell Inspiron 5150 with 120 dpi (not 96) - because o/w everything is too small. The 120 dpi has created a few other issues too - I can live with it, but others must have same problem --JimWae 00:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The fix was to put a manual < br > in the 2nd column where it was getting too wide - it only appears when there is wider text for 2nd column --JimWae 01:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

In Safari with classic skin, this fix causes the government type field to show up as

Federal constitutional monarchy

with

parliamentary democracy

Can we try a different fix? I've added a css style on the "Official language(s)" field name, which I think should fix this. -- Rick Block (talk) 01:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Location image

There is a discussion going on to change the image for the country map to a new style i think its important to the template. its on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries - Fabhcún 02:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

For those of you who were unaware of this, you should give it a look and offer your opinion as it is important to the standardization of this template. —MJCdetroit 18:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Template name and "(s)"

1. Suggest this template name becomes "Infobox Country or territory" as I've seen it in use for regions not identified as countries (and continued such use);
2. Anyone else feel the "(s)"s appearing within the template (e.g. "Official language(s)") look less than ideal and arguably are redundant; it should be (made) evident if there is more than one language, anthem, etc listed...?

Regards, David Kernow (talk) 19:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

...Alternatively, perhaps alternate singular and plural parameters (national_anthem / national_anthems, official_language / official_languages, etc) handled by {{#if:}}s...?

As for the name: It doesn't bother me if adding the "or territory" will make people feel better, because visually one can read in the government type that it is a territory or overseas collectivity or a crown dependency or whatever of country X. For example, Jersey is a British crown dependency and it says so in the infobox. Sometimes people get hung up on the actual name of the infobox 'Country' and I hope that if we add "or territory" someone won't get hung-up on the fact that it doesn't say overseas collectivity or commonwealth of...

As for the "(s)": if you can come up with a working alternative in a sandbox like Template:Infobox Country/Test we can then figure out if we like it or not. —MJCdetroit 20:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• "Country or territory" seems a succinct description of what/where this template is used, even if it might be technically incorrect or not all-encompassing. Meanwhile, re the "(s)"s, have been bold and removed them. Should anyone feel the urge to revert, please edit rather than revert. Thanks, David (talk) 20:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Bug

Recent changes created a bug in the template. Now the map and COA image is squeezed to the right and sometimes even cut of. See for example Lithuania. I don't have to dig out the problem, but please fix. Thanks! Renata 14:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the problem (PC-win2000pro, Netscape 8.1 (mozilla) or IE 6.0, (see below) with the monobook skin). What are you using (OS, browser, skin)? Does anyone else see this? —MJCdetroit 20:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

No display problems with Lithuania here either, Renata (PC, WinXP, Firefox 1.0.7, monobook.css); is it now in order for you...?  If not, my apologies, as it would be my efforts to improve the template that have caused the problem; more examples would be welcome so I may try to repair it. Thanks, David Kernow (talk) 20:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

...Just spotted your coat-of-arms image change; did this solved the problem...?  Regards, David (talk) 20:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The image is not the problem. Same problem with Denmark, Romania, Cyprus etc. I can't see a problem in Firefox but IE 6 moves the images so far to the right that there is no border on the right-hand image and a few pixels are actually cut off. In the arms of Cyprus, the right-hand border is located in the middle of the right part of the wreath. In the Danish example, it cuts through the crown and the heart in the top-right corner of the shield. "Upgrade": Take out old bugs put new ones in. I wonder if IE 7 works any differently? I haven't tried it since Micro$oft hasn't translated it yet. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 21:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is happening but 1) it didn't solve the problem in IE, 2) the infobox on Sweden has committed suicide. In IE it just looks like a string of Wikicode. It looks exactly like this:

{{Infobox Country or territory |native_name = Konungariket Sverige |conventional_long_name = Kingdom of Sweden |common_name = Sweden |image_flag = Flag of Sweden.svg |image_coat = Sweden greater arms.png |symbol_type = Coat of arms |image_map = Europe location SWE.png |national_motto = För Sverige i tiden 1 "For Sweden with the times" |national_anthem = Du gamla, du fria "Thou ancient, thou free" Royal anthem: Kungssången "The King's song" |official_languages = none (Swedish de facto)2 |capital = Stockholm |latd=59 |latm=21 |latNS=N |longd=18 |longm=4 |longEW=E |largest_city = Stockholm |government_type = [[Representative democracy|Democratic] parliamentary system under constitutional monarchy |leader_title1 = King |leader_title2 = Prime Minister |leader_name1 = Carl XVI Gustaf |leader_name2 = Fredrik Reinfeldt |accessionEUdate = 1 January 1995 |area_rank = 55th |area_magnitude = 1 E11 |area = 449,964 |areami² = 173,732 |percent_water = 8.67 |population_estimate = 9,097,948 (August 2006)[1] |population_estimate_rank = 85th |population_estimate_year = 2006 |population_census = 8,587,353 |population_census_year = 1990 |population_density = 20 |population_densitymi² = 52 |population_density_rank = 185th |GDP_PPP = $270.516 billion |GDP_PPP_rank = 35th |GDP_PPP_year = 2005 |GDP_PPP_per_capita = $29,898 |GDP_PPP_per_capita_rank = 19th |sovereignty_type = Consolidation |sovereignty_note = prehistoric |HDI = 0.949 |HDI_rank = 6th |HDI_year = 2003 |HDI_category = high |currency = Swedish krona |currency_code = SEK |country_code = SWE |time_zone = CET |utc_offset = +1 |time_zone_DST = CEST |utc_offset_DST = +2 |cctld = .se3 |calling_code = 46 |footnotes = 1 Current king Carl XVI Gustaf has adopted För Sverige i tiden as his personal motto. Former king Gustaf VI Adolf's motto was Plikten framför allt, "Duty above all". 2 The Swedish language is de facto the national language. Five languages are officially recognized as minority languages. 3 The .eu domain is also used, as it is shared with other European Union member states. }}

Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 21:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've fixed the Swedish box but we still have the positioning problem. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 22:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Does the Sweden infobox seem to "work" correctly now...?  What I don't understand is that if the problem's in the template code, why should amending the layout of the values given to its parameters on a page suddenly solve the problem... Meanwhile, still no problem here, before, during or after... Puzzling, David (talk) 05:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I am using IE and I attach screenshot. Hope it makes clear my issues. Renata 22:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Renata, to you et al for supplying this feedback and your patience. Naturally I hope this may be resolved without reverting all/much of my efforts to improve/harmoniz/se the template; does anyone know one or more Wikipedians expert in cross-browser/cross-whatever issues who might be able to indicate what's amiss...?  Hopefully, David (talk) 05:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The box on Sweden is back to life, I've tweaked the motto thing a bit. Unfortunately, the problem described by Renata still exists (again, IE 7 might do the trick? Don't know). Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 10:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, but after looking closer (or maybe after a forced reload) I do see the problem with Lithuania on my PC in IE6. For the record, I almost never use IE. I'm a Netscape (PC) and FireFox (Mac) kinda guy. Speaking of, it seemed fine on my Mac, too. I think we will have to revert David's changes and move them to a sandbox until we/he can get them right. —MJCdetroit 13:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Revert of David's edits

Sorry David but I had to revert all of your changes to the "live template". I created a sandbox for us to play in (see above). That sandbox currently holds your last edit (as of 16:20, 31 October 2006) to the "live template". I hope this is a good compromise for all and that we will soon see your tested edits in the live template soon. —I'm MJCdetroit, and I approved this message.—01:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the trouble to include the above, MJCdetroit. I'll aim to visit the sandbox sometime soon to see if anything might be salvaged. Maybe on second/third viewing I might gain some inkling why the template started falling apart. Regards, David Kernow (talk) 02:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC) (who doesn't approve of all those negative messages)

Added Nominal GDP

Hi, I just added the nominal GDP spaces to the template, as giving only GDP PPP is somewhat misleading. Giving only one GDP figure is only telling half the story, espcially in cases such as Norway or Japan. The differences in ranking and figures are so great I cannot see how we can afford to omit nominal GDP figures from our articles. Anyways, please check my edits for mistakes and feel free to contact me with any suggestions you might have. Thank you and best regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 18:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, it is not up to us to decide whether or not our readers only get the PPP or nominal figures. Which we think are better in reflecting a country's actual GDP is irrelevant according to WP policy. We are obligated to give our readers nominal figures as well as PPP figures. Signature^brendelNow under review! 07:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Government

In some (or better in many!) countries of the world not every leading position or institution is part of government! The current template only appropriates to presidential democracies not even to all constitutional monarchies. Indirect democracies often have a representativ president and not a member of the government as head of state! Geo-Loge 22:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a specific example? —MJCdetroit 17:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Germany: The head of state is the Bundespräsident (Federal President), but he is not part of the government whos Chancellor is voted by the Bundestag (leaded by the presdident of parliament). Nevertheless the Bundespräsident has a couple of political rights and tasks (for example sign new laws after verification of constitutionality) and some kind of indirect influence to the government.

Italy: The president of Italy is in limited scope of rights the head of all three branches.

United Kingdom: The Queen is not part of the goverment.

Every nation, that is not a presidial republic like the United States of America or Russia, can be seen as a specific example. Geo-Loge 08:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)