Talk:Indulgence

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Contents

[edit] Historical Signifigance

There is currently no section in the acticle concerning the way in which the refutation of the doctrine of indulgences started Martin Luther on the road toward the Reformation. There should be a section that deals with this. More importantly this article reads like a piece of Roman Catholic doctrine than a proper encyclopediac entry. To not mention the important controversy regarding them, and then to paint the Catholic practise as proper but give modern examples of unethical behaviour by protestant televangilists also clouds this article with political bias. Indulgences do have a historical signifigance to Western culture that extends beyond their Roman Catholic dogma. Humble Servant 20:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree 100%. Besides being barely understandable to a non-catholic reader, this article has a strong church-apologist POV PermanentE 23:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree as well, the article's POV is seems very much as though it was coming from a member of the church. This article needs to be re-written as NPOV. 16:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.4.143.83 (talk)
I find this article to be a well written explanation of Catholic Doctrine. As a catholic, seeking a current indulgence offered by Pope Benedict, I had some specific questions about indulgences answered by reading this article. Where better to get an explanation of catholic doctrine than from somebody closely associated with the church? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.33.143.164 (talk) 19:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Do indulgences still exist in the Roman Catholic Church

Today, indulgences does not exist in Roman Catholic Church

Is this true? I can understand why they might not be selling them anymore. But my understanding is that indulgences could still be obtained by performing ritual acts like praying to certain saints or going on pilgrimages to shrines and so forth. At least, this was the impression I got last time I spoke with the Blue Army rosary ladies, which has been a few year. Smerdis of Tlön 04:12, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Also, can we withhold judgment on whether Luther was correct in characterizing the marketing of indulgences as a sale of indulgences? Hasdrubal 02:51, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why? Your remark suggests that there isn't really a controversy to withhold judgment on, there being no difference between "marketing" and "selling". -- Smerdis of Tlön 04:13, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • The statement "Today, indulgences does (sic) not exist in Roman Catholic Church (sic)" is incorrect, both doctrinally and grammatically. Indulgences do still exist in the RCC, and they are earned (never sold) for performing various actions. (In 1567, Pope Pius V, following the Council of Trent, forbade the attachment of indulgences to any financial act, including the giving of alms.)
For example, praying the Angelus each day earns a partial indulgence.
As for whether Martin Luther was correct or not, I believe this is an issue of POV. What should be said is "Martin Luther characterized the marketing of indlugences as a sale of indulgences." If anything else, it could be said, equally NPOV, that the RCC denies this. Whether Luther was or was not correct in his assessment is a matter of opinion, not fact, and is inherrently POV, but that he made the assessment is a matter of fact and NPOV. Equally so, whether the RCC is or is not correct in believing that Luther was incorrct is a matter of opinion; that the RCC holds this position is a matter of fact. Essjay 06:25, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
Indulgences do exist in the Roman Catholic Church today. The Council of Trent abolished all connections indulgences had with money, but they did not abolish indulgences themselves. The Handbook of Indulgences Norms and Grants is still authorized and published by the Catholic Book Publishing Corp. with a version copyrighted as recently as 1991. Andy120 17:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I think they upgraded the spell so you have to be an 8th level cleric to cast Plenary Indulgence now. -- Rogerborg 11:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, I think that Rogerborg is ignorant, cynical and anti-catholic and he is mocking our catholic faith because he is brain-washed by Chick Publications, which is banned in many countries around the world and simply using anti-catholicism to enrich their coffers. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches in Part Two, Section Two, Chapter Two, Article 4, Item X that "an Indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfaction of Christ and the saints. An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either partial or all of the temporal punishment due to sin. The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead." (CCC 1471 to 1498). The authority to forgive sins and to grant indulgences that is bound on earth and in heaven was given to the Church by Christ Himself. (Mt 16:19). However, an Indulgence is only effective in so far as there's true repentant or contrition for the sins forgiven. Benitus (talk) 00:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overhaul

I've overhauled this article; I'd appreciate a review or imput on the "other Christian traditions" section, as I can only speak to the Catholic and DOC positions. Essjay 09:24, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Other Christian Traditions

The section on other Christian traditions may require some nuances. Most Protestants reject a doctrine of purgatory, but not all. C.S. Lewis is an obvious (but not lone) example. Orthodox Christians definitely reject "Purgatory" under that Latin name, but many suggest other ways that souls may be cleansed or purified after death that most Catholic theologians would consider "a distinction without a difference" (c.f. this Catholic "Cleansed After Death" article). So while it is generally safe to say that neither Protestants nor Orthodox believe in purgatory or grant indulgences, there are some similar beliefs and practices among them. Johnaugus

I can't recall anything in Lewis that suggests that he believed in Purgatory (The Great Divorce, for example, begins with an explicit disclaimer that he is *not* speculating about conditions in the afterlife, but presenting an allegory). The article on Purgatory makes a similar claim for Lewis -- any citations?

--jrcagle 23:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

C.S. Lewis's position is sketchy at best in regards to purgatory, but his belief's, as representative of protestant doctrine, is immaterial. A review of mainline Protestant churches, Anglican, Luthern, Presbyterian, United, all refute the dogma of purgatory. There is no similar belief or practise I am aware of among Protestants. Humble Servant 03:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a reference to something like Indulgences in the Pharisaic tradition. Jonathan Tweet 14:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC) -

--I would like to know the reference for the quotation from Patriarch Dositheus regarding the distribution of indulgences to the Eastern Orthodox. --Cristianispir 14:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I have now found a related reference to a similar citation alleged to be that of Dositheus: "We have the custom and ancient tradition, which is known to all, that the most holy Patriarchs would give the people of the Church a certificate for the absolution of their sins.(Sinhorohartion) in A. Papadopoulos-Kerameus, Symvolai eis tin istorian tis arkhiepiskopis tou orous Sina (Towards a History of the Archbishopric of Sinan). Saint Petersburg, 1908. p. 133."--Cristianispir 14:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confession

In another occurrance of the continual war to change Reconciliation to Confession, this page has now been hit. I've said it before, and I'm sure I will have to say it again. The Catechism says Reconciliation, the Code of Canon Law says reconciliation, JP2 said reconciliation, B16 says reconciliation, and Francis Cardinal Arinze of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments says reconciliation. It isn't called confession anymore, it is RECONCILIATION! -- Essjay · Talk 04:17, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree; The Code of Canon Law says Penance(Cann. 959 - 997), not reconciliation. Andy120 17:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Maybe when the old/alternative term is as widely recognised as this, it would be worth mentioning it at the first use in the article - if only for the benefit of readers less well versed in contemporary terminology? Something like sacrament of reconciliation (sometimes known as confession)? Or the other way round, I suppose - I have no axe to grind. - Paul 04:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Please allow me to throw in my two-bits worth because I was recently researching this Sacrament to prepare to teach my Religious Instruction class for some elderly baptists and I found some disquieting truths. Yes, this Sacrament used to be known as the Sacrament of Penance and still is known as such. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Article 4, CCC 1422 to 1498), it is officially described as the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation, although it is equally referred to as the Sacrament of Penance and the Sacrament of Reconciliation at different places, depending on the topic being discussed. "Confession" has always been a colloquial and practical term used to refer to the reception of the Sacrament of Penance, although many lay catholics (both past and present) have often referred to it as being the Sacrament of Confession, which is allowed for within the Catechism, e.g. the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation is variously called the "sacrament of conversion", the "sacrament of Penance" (CCC 1423), the "sacrament of confession", the "sacrament of forgiveness", and the "sacrament of reconciliation" (CCC 1424). The Code of Canon Law was revised before the revision of the Catechism of the Catholic Church was released, which may account for the apparent anomaly but Pope JP2 himself did encourage the use of the term "Sacrament of Reconciliation" rather than the term "Sacrament of Penance" (although both are equally correct and acceptable) because "penance" suggests negativity whereas "reconciliation" suggests positivity and the church encourages us to be positive about all the seven holy sacraments, which were instituted to restore us to a state of sanctifying grace or an increase of sacramental grace. Hence, the elderly people (even for Pope B16 himself) tend to refer to it as the Sacrament of Penance (more by force of habit than anything else) while the younger or newer catholics and converts like myself would prefer to refer to it as the Sacrament of Reconciliation. At the end of the day, as long as we know what we're talking about, anything that works for anyone of us is equally acceptable to the church, so we shouldn't lose any sleep over the use of different terminology. Benitus (talk) 22:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Simony

Does the concept of Simony relate to the practice of Indulgences especially during the dark ages when Indulgences were one of the main issues spawning the Reformation?

Simony (the selling of church offices) begins not in the "dark ages" -- which are generally taken to be the period between the fall of Rome and the ascendency of Charlemagne or perhaps Otto I -- but somewhat later. The practice occurred at the highest levels in the 11th century with Gregory VI; Gregory VII condemned it [1]. The Reformation is linked to simony in a way. The Archbishop of Mainz had to pay a rather large fee in return for his post, and his authorization of Tetzel to sell indulgences was a way to recoup the losses (Cameron, p. 100). Whether or not this was simony is probably debated; the fee was I believe technically a fee for the dispensation to allow the under-age Mainz to take the post.--jrcagle 00:18, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Bold text

[edit] Manual of Indulgences

The revised Manual of Indulgences (1999) is now out in an English version. It is excellent. The USCCB is the publisher.

[edit] Image removed

I've removed the image of an alleged indulgence by Tetzel (Image:Indulgence.png). There are serious doubts as to its authenticity. See [2] . Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] granted AFTER the sinner confesses?

There is a crucial point glossed over here. The article states that indulgences only apply to sins already confessed and forgiven, and the "Myths About Indulgences" reference specifically states that a person can't "buy forgiveness" or apply indulgences for sins yet committed; yet when Luther wrote his Theses, many people (both priests and laymen) believed that indulgences could be used that way. That was one of the primary reasons for the controversy, and also a primary reason that many people now believe indulgences are no longer part of Church teaching. This article states a specific technical definition of an indulgence without mentioning the common understanding, which was and is widely held. Shouldn't it mention the difference, so as to shed light on the controversies? User:keno 20:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge "Treasure House of Merit" into "Indulgences"

I suggest merging Treasure House of Merit into this article. "Treasure House" is very short, marked as having quality issues, and at one time the subject of a delete discussion. It essentially just a definition needed for this article. The only other link to it comes from Martin Luther which would probably do better by pointing here instead. Hult041956 17:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a cradle catholic but I've been a very active student of catholic history and the catholic church. I used to be a bible-quoting, gung-ho protestant before God led me into the catholic church, so I'm very familiar with the arguments of both sides of the christian divide. I don't believe that the catholic church practises any such thing as a "Treasure House of Merit". In fact, personal merits acquired by individuals cannot be sold or transferred to another person, although we can secure favors from God for people we care about through our prayers and merits. Our Lord only spoke about the need for us to store treasure in heaven through our acts of charity, prayers, sacrifices, penances, self-denials, atonement, etc. The so-called practice of selling indulgences or even of merits was un-catholic and un-christian, limited to some zealots or corrupted few of the Middle Ages within the church (who sought to raise funds among the nobles of that time to build churches or to pay for the defence of the church against muslim expansion) before the Catholic reformation prompted by the Council of Trent, which banned or banished such un-catholic activities that were not approved by the magisterium of the church. Only anti-catholics would continue to use such mistakes by a limited few to attack the catholic church and the christian faith it professes, which has largely remained unchanged since the time of Christ. Yes, Martin Luther had strong objections to such practices and rightly so but he was wrong to take it upon himself to use such mistakes to attack the church in a vain attempt to force the church to make changes, rather than to work on securing changes within the church because his actions were tantamount to placing himself above God, which resulted in creating his own church (and setting a very bad example for others to do the same which ended up with more than 30,000 different christian churches) that was not of God's making, i.e. he founded a church to believe in God in his own way and not the way that Jesus had taught us. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Himself and established by His Apostles, which is the only true church of Christ, regardless of whatever shortcomings that may have been created by the leaders of the church, and Jesus promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Mt 16:18-19). God allowed the human leaders of the church to make mistakes that led to dissatisfaction which prompted reforms that were necessary for change with the times but never once, did any of the Popes or Bishops change the constitution of the church, i.e. the dogmas of the church, to justify their wrong-doings and all of them died repentant of their sins.

Therefore, the very entry for "Treasure House of Merit" is wrong by itself (as there is no such thing, other than what was alleged of the catholic church by protestants and anti-catholics) but if you decide to merge it with the entry on "Indulgence", then Wikipedia would run the risk of being biased and be considered irrelevant by both catholics and non-christians seeking the truth of historical facts. Wikipedia should in fact remove the entry "Treasure House of Merit" itself, simply because there is no such thing within the doctrines of the catholic church. You may refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church or the Catholic Encyclopedia to confirm whether such a thing as "Treasure House of Merit" truly exists or not within the catholic church. Thank you. Benitus (talk) 21:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

If Martin Luther felt it important enough to mention in his 95 theses, then it is worthy of mention here, even if he was mistaken. As long as there are verifiable sources and a neutral POV, that is. Perhaps merging with the article on Martin Luther would be more appropriate thoughBeeblbrox (talk) 00:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Then that article should discuss Luther's notion of the "Treasure House of Merit", and not portray it as current or historical Catholic doctrine. I will, as I have time, be rewriting this article considerably. Gimmetrow 02:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality issues

The section on mortal sin versus versus in particular seems to present Catholic theology as fact. It seems to me a POV edit is needed here.Beeblbrox (talk) 23:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Precisely what would that involve? putting "According to Catholic theology" before every sentence? Gimmetrow 20:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
We could add the "In-universe" template. Gigs (talk) 07:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plenary Indulgences

Yes they still exist in RCC. To earn one, the faithful must confess his/her sins and receive the body of Christ within a short period of time after the indulgence is granted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.224.90 (talk) 17:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

need more info —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.130.161 (talk) 23:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The article says: "To gain a plenary indulgence, a person must exclude all attachment to sin of any kind, even venial sin, must perform the work or say the prayer for which the indulgence is granted, and must also fulfil the three conditions of sacramental confession, Eucharistic communion and praying for the intentions of the Pope." It gives several examples of actions for which plenary indulgences are granted (on those conditions). What more do you want? Lima (talk) 04:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)