Talk:Induced gamma emission: Hafnium controversy

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Contents 1 Conflict resolution 2 Starting discussions 3 Conflict resolution, Again 4 ...and Again

[edit] Conflict resolution

Recent division of the article Ballotechnics produced a new page Induced gamma emission, abbreviated IGE. The remaining ballotechnics page continues to focus upon the concerns of mini-nuclear weapons and is of no concern here. The new IGE article reviews the first (and orderly) 60 years of research into an interdisciplinary field aiming to use various types of photons to accelerate the release of the internal energies stored in nuclear isomers. If this were law instead of physics, we could say that part of IGE was settled case law by 1999. Potential applications were esoteric and comfortably far in the future.

At the turn of the millenium the situation with IGE was inverted with the publication of an experiment reporting IGE from Hf-178m2 that worked much better than "expected". Controversy has raged for 6 years, producing mostly material that does not meet the high standards of Wikipedia. Despite the unsettled state of knowledge about this particular example of IGE, there is the recurring intent to be able to say something about this more consequential focus of IGE. With Hf-178m2, storage times are conveniently long and released energies may be very large.

In order to try to develop some sort of report about this aspect of induced gamma emission everyone is invited to "work it out" on this page, as recommended by WP:SP.

• The intent is to produce a subpage for Induced gamma emission that can be moved after consensus is reached here about the development of IGE after 1999.
• Everyone is invited to contribute, but normal rules of contribution and courtesy will apply. NPOV is the goal here.
• If you do something here, please explain it on the discussion page. If you do not explain it, it will probably be reverted.
• If you want to develop a subpage of the IGE article somewhere else, please do so, but first look at WP:SP.

Forget the idea of "subpages", its not appropriate for main namespace content. Rather than inviting people here, I suggest moving the content of this article to IGE controversy (or other suitable title Hafnium bomb? Hafnium controversy?). The normal rules of courtesy in WP means that most people will be reticent in editing user subpages; basically, you won't get much traffic or interest here. If you want to invite a few specific editors, then please invite them directly by notifying them on their talk page. Otherwise, I'll say it again: this looks good enough to be moved directly to the main namespace. linas 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Linas, thanks ! As always you are able to inject very helpful perspective. In fact it is said at WP:SP that the subpage feature is disabled in the English main namespace. However, Hafnium bomb is a redirect to Induced gamma emission. That would leave two good suggeations, but with "controversy" in the names. I believe that does not promote consensus or even discussed revision. We have seen that the flavor of controversy in the last 6 years of the development in a field of interest distorted the previous 60 years of settled accomplishment. It seems to me that we may have consensus about those first 60 years now that they are separated from the subsequest path of events. So far-so good with Induced gamma emission.

So it seems we are left with the agreement that the developing article needs to go somewhere, but it is not clear where. Maybe it would be more nearly clear after we get a better idea of the contents to which this draft will evolve. A look at Talk:Induced gamma emission does not suggest such overwhelming inhibition caused by feelings of politeness, but rather some strong tendencies to ignore the warning at the top to discuss matters before making draconian revisions. Perhaps, the way out of the dilemma is for everyone to start again with the Wikipedia principle of assume good intentions for this try hosted here. Please try it and see if it works - or try something else. A lot of work went into this first draft and with good will all around it can be much better.

--Drac2000 16:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I'd lean towards Linas' suggestion here. Although IGE appears to be a part of the claims for the Hf-178m2 "bomb" effort, the opposite is not true. That does seem to suggest that the controversial portions should be moved to an article on those claims, simply linking back to IGE. Now, as to the name, well I think "Halfnium bomb" may be ok, but perhaps that focuses too much on the "far out" portions of the claims? Dunno Maury 23:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

So we all seem to agree that the solution is a second article in the main namespace that covers "overflow" from the greater interest and significance that started in 1999 when IGE from Hafnium was reported. Definitely, "bomb" expresses extremism as opposed to science. All of the science can be reconciled and not imply a bomb. I think we want to focus upon the science. That was why I used what is at the top of this page for this first draft title, Induced gamma emission:_Hafnium-178m2. Not too bad, but there can be better. The main point I am asserting is the need for an incubator for development of a consensus page from here. I do not see any need for haste. People will either start interacting here or they will not. Someone else will either start the "bomb" aspect somewhere else or not. Or constructive boredom will set in and progress will be slow but collegial. No hurry, stress is low, things are fine. We could just see what happens during a bit of incubation. Why not? --Drac2000 23:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I really think that Halfnium controversy or something similar is the correct title. The non-controversial stuff can be placed in the IGE article, whereas the whole point of this article is to document that there *is* a controversy (and to document both sides of it) -- it would be wrong to pretend that there isn't, and it would be wrong to use some mundane title. The ideal title would be a phrase which is commonly used by the press when reporting on this; alternately a phrase by which the insiders know it as, or is used in hallway talk at conferences, or lectures, or used in the political landscape, etc.

As to conflict on WP, you should notice that it has evaporated. You will occasionally get the drive-by crank, vandal, etc. but as long as an article is well written and more or less accurate, there's usually no conflict. By contrast, take a look at EmDrive and Emdrive for the latest efforts to keep the cranks at bay. linas 05:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree completely, the timing seems right. As always, thanks for you insights and guidance.

--Drac2000 14:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Starting discussions

The first approximation is installed. --Drac2000 12:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Reference detail and figure being added. --Drac2000 15:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Clean up duplication of refs. --Drac2000 16:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Add description and links to synchrotron information. --Drac2000 16:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict resolution, Again

The introduction of unsubstantiated rumor and assertions by jjk308 violates the principles of WP:AGF and WP:CON. Such drastic and polarizing edits require discussion WP:DR before such changes are made. The article is being reverted until there is discussion. Hey, come on, let's try to talk it out ! --Drac2000 13:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ...and Again

An editor may have improved the tone and balance by adding the phrase "It has been claimed...." under the subsection "Opinions." No discussion was given for the change but it seems fair enough. However, 2 minutes later the same colleague edited his own contribution to "Collins claims....", again without discussion. Since the original opinion was referenced; use of the identity of the writer of the opinion would be better included in the citation rather than the text. For now, I reverted it back to the 2 minutes earlier version. It communicates the message that it is an opinion which we all suspected because it was placed under the subsection "Opinions". --Drac2000 23:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)