Talk:Indo-European languages

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Indo-European languages was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: June 15, 2006

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[edit] Holm and Kortlandt

Holm's hypothesis is held by no one but himself, and hasn't even been published yet. Its inclusion here is massive UNDUE weight on a single viewpoint that is not widely held. Kortlandt's paper is a red herring, as Kortlandt (like very many Indo-Europeanists) believes in the Indo-Hittite hypothesis. I didn't mind you removing the info about Indo-Hittite, Rokus01, because it was, as you pointed out, unsourced, but replacing it with the unpublished, untested, and unreviewed "Separation Level Recovery method" is preposterous. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 17:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Please allow me a short answer: The above attacks reveal the absolute unability of this anonymous writer for any scholarly enquiry. At least my homepage would help. Thank you.HJJHolm (talk) 07:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's analyse your stance.

The idea of the Anatolian languages, and all Indo European languages in general for that sake, being part of a (thus fairly recent) Bronze Age phenomenon is not new at all. Mallory hinted at it (to him essentially Bronze Age features were a mystery still to be solved) and Robert Drews is another respected name that published on the subject, even suggesting a Bronze Age arrival of Anatolian languages. Note, a Bronze Age spread is not the same as the formative stage, that might go back a lot further including pre-existing language splits already on the homeland spot. So far, nothing new or "fringy".

The other results of the SLRD method are not surprising, maybe except for the Balto-Slavic position on the geneological tree. This has been anticipated by the work of Kortlandt that already recognized satemization to be inducted on a pre-satem linguisitic substratum in the Balitcs. The linguistic affiliation of Tocharian with Greek has equally been proposed independently as well as earlier. Thus, all of these results are supported by linguistic evidence from different sources and are nothing new or "fringy" either.

I don't agree with your opinion on Holm. His contribution to alpha-informatica exceeds this investigation and is recognized on an international level. He cooperated in similar dialectometric research of other universities. Many accept this/his methodology, and hence would accept the results as reliable. Even though it is very common that different disciplines don't agree with the results of one or the other, still this does not invalidate the scientific level or methodology. In other words, the existence of this discipline is something that can't be denied, Holm is an established name in this discipline and the results of this kind of methodology can't be ignored. This publication has already been approved by the board: the scientific methodology and accuracy of the investigation is beyond any doubt.

I don't think it is POV to put more weight to the most recent research, though I agree with you that older, more "intuitive" subgroupings that are less scientifically quantified and based on overall linguistic features should have a place, especially (or only?) where these investigations significantly diverge from the SLRD results. Here, of course (see above), we talk basically of the Anatolian languages. I won't go as far as to support Holm's claims of having refuted the Indo-Hittite hypothesis already. My wording was: it contradicts earlier research.

Indeed, only time will tell if other disciplines will heed this evidence within their own research. I recognize precaution against representing only one point of view, still POV was not my intention in moving some linguistic desciptions to somewhere else. I am sure we could come up with some sourced arguments in favor of an early split of Anatolian languages, in a way that I reckon would be a lot more to the point. If this is what you require with your POV alert, I completely agree and I'll promise you to come back later with relevant details on earlier Anatonian geneologic research. Rokus01 (talk) 21:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You did add the word "refute" in parentheses, though, leading the reader to draw that conclusion. And it is non-NPOV to put more weight on the most recent research, because the most recent research is the least likely to be what is the established and widely held view. As for Holm, I don't doubt he's the leading name in SLRD, since he's the only person who's ever written about it. And although the paper has been accepted for publication, it is significant that the volume where it is to be published is not a volume on Indo-European linguistics, so the peer reviewers were almost certainly not Indo-Europeanists. I don't even know what "alpha-informatics" is (presuming your "alpha-informatica" is a typo for that), but it's so unknown as a discipline that Wikipedia's article on it got deleted for being a neologism. Basically neither of these approaches has any weight of scholarly consensus behind it, at least not in regard to Indo-European linguistics, which is all that matters on this page. The only two hypotheses on the position of Anatolian that do have weighty scholarly opinion behind them are (1) the traditional view that Anatolian broke off either at the same time as the other branches, or at least only a century or two before them, so that the non-Anatolian branches did not have time to evolve together before splitting up, and (2) the Indo-Hittite view that Anatolian broke off many centuries or even a millennium or so before the non-Anatolian branches broke up, so that non-Anatolian did have time to evolve independently of Anatolian. Those are really the only two views widely held enough to be worth mentioning on a page as general in its scope as this one. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 23:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Try "Alfa Informatica" or "Alpha-Informatica". This is a faculty in at least the universities of Amsterdam, Groningen and Freiburg. Indeed, the study is not confined to Indo European studies (I found a general description in German: [1]), though the methods are scientific and verifiable. We can have a discussion on this topic if you want, though I figure beforehand that Alfa Informatica don't compare with what I would consider fringe. To me such a denomination has too many connotations with the Velikovsky and Daniker kind, and can not and should not be applied to cutting edge university research.

Concerning your other comment, indeed the Anatolian results are the only clear deviation from sure and confirmed knowledge. However, in Britannica we can read there are THREE opinions on the Anatolian question, not two (the third one holding anatolina to be an even more recent split than Greek or Armenian). It says the Indo-Hittite hypothesis is neither definitely proved nor disproved (22:582). Actually, the encyclopedia makes a case against the hypothesis at page 494 and attibute a split of the same order as Celtic or Italic corresponding to your second view (like the SLRD results).

I will propose another edit. Rokus01 (talk) 16:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree with Angr. Holm's hypothesis has no place in the main Indo-European languages article. A clear case of WP:UNDUE recentism if ever there was one. Try to be reasonable. dab (𒁳) 18:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "Holm's hypothesis". The only thing he does is to take a digital version of the most modern and acknowledged Indo-European dictionary, the "Lexikon der indogermanischen Verben" (Rix et al. 2002, second edition) that he calls "LIV-2" and to make his calculations, that are verifiable and repeatable. He does this on a fully scientifically endorsed level. The resulting picture mainly confirms generally accepted hypotheses on groupings, except for the case of the Anatolian group for the one and simple reason that here no generally accepted hypotheses exist to start with. His calculations give a clear picture of the impact of current knowledge on reconstructed verbs. If this would be undue "unacceptable recentism" you'd better turn off your computer right now. Rokus01 (talk) 23:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

you obviously do not want to listen. Holm's calculations are intersting and quotable, but their significance is nowhere even near what would warrant their mention in this article. I don't see why I should "turn off my computer" because you obviously have no grasp of the matters you are dabbling in. I have done similar calculations for fun, and they were laughed out of court by one of the authors of LIV. That's what this is: fun with dictionaries. Interesting if you are into these things, but of no consequence whatsoever to the question of Indo-European prehistory: you basically end up recovering the assumptions that went into the writing of the dictionary. The calculation is fair because it generally replicates communis opinio, not the other way round. Even if you decide you want to take this at face value, if you think the outcome for Anatolian or Tocharian has any significance, you clearly have no understanding of the underlying mathematics. dab (𒁳) 09:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Obviously I didn't mean to interrupt your funplay by switching off your computer so rudely, don't worry. You have to recognize though, computers are acceptable recentisms, and so is the technology to make computers work and yield results - especially when the input is right. Indeed, there must be some circular reasoning behind using certified input in relation to retrieving "acceptable" output. More important, however, is a scientific repeatable and verifiable method that yields coherent output related to the input. No thanks, I am not going into mathematics, I'll do with a basic acquaintance with the necessary assumptions and rely on the alpha-informatica specialists. I bet the Indo-European linguists will do the same. Rokus01 (talk) 15:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Britannica

I have access to the online Britannica, and there is no article entitled "Indo-Hittite hypothesis". There is a very brief article on "Indo-Hittite languages", restricting itself to the bare definition of the term and saying there is no consensus, without any of the details we attribute to Britannica.[2] It would be useful to cite the lemma in Britannica, and the lemma's authors, not just page numbers. Britannica has a good "Anatolian languages" article, signed by Philo H.J. Houwink ten Cate, H. Craig Melchert and Theo P.J. van den Hout, but I fail to find anything about "very Indo-European agricultural terminology" in Anatolian, as our article references to Britannica. dab (𒁳) 09:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed we are talking about the same lemma: "Anatolian languages", signed Ph.H.J.H.t.C. in the paper version (according to my knowledge paper and online versions of the 15th edition are virtually the same, except for some very necessary corrections and some extra secondary information, like full author names?). The last subsection has the "Indo-Hittite hypothesis" subheader written at the left side margin (maybe the same as your link, though I discover more details than you made out of it). However, your query refers to the first section "Historical background of Ancient Anatolia". My version reads: On the basis of the agricultural terminology used in Hittite, it has been suggested that the entry into Anatolia was not a warlike invasion of predominantly male groups. If such would be the case, the influence of substratum languages would have been likely, but, on the contrary, the word stems used are definitely Indo-European. In other words, Indo-European was used or preserved for words related to agriculture, even though (or because?) they roamed lands that were agricultural by tradition. The words are IE, even though not universal IE. Rokus01 (talk) 14:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, in the online version, the final section is entitled "Relationship with the other subgroups"

There have been two major responses to this dilemma. One approach has sought to show that Anatolian inherited but lost all the categories named above (perhaps preserving a few crucial remnants). A radically opposing viewpoint, widely known as the “Indo-Hittite” hypothesis, holds that Anatolian and Proto-Indo-European, the reconstructed source of all other Indo-European languages, are collateral (same-generation) descendants of a still earlier linguistic stage, Indo-Hittite, that lacked these characteristics. ... This issue is far from settled, but it is unlikely that either of the models just described is valid in their extreme form. ... no single viewpoint can be said to represent a consensus of scholars in the field.

The "Historical background of Ancient Anatolia" does mention agricultural terminology, but rather to the opposite effect of what you quote:

Although the Hattian and Hurrian peoples did influence Hittite culture, their contributions to the Hittite language were mostly limited to terms for local flora, fauna, and a few other categories. Comparisons of Hittite agricultural terms and those of other Indo-European subgroups indicate that the “Anatolians” seceded from the parent group before the creation of a common agricultural nomenclature

Interestingly, the text you quote is dumped verbatim on a giant page here. The bit on "definitely Indo-European word-stems" was apparently edited out. If it's in the 15th edition, we can still refer to it of course, but seeing that the authors "retracted" the claim, it would be worthwhile to cite some actual scholarly literature on this. But this goes too deep for the "Indo-European languages" and should be moved to Anatolian languages. dab (𒁳) 15:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The "dumped verbatim" still mentions the "definitely Indo-European word stems", so I guess your online version doesn't. I can't confirm this would be due to summarizing or that it would have been actively retracted or refuted in any other way. All I can say, though, is my edit does not oppose your second quote at all. My quote: Points proffered in favour of the Indo-Hittite hypothesis are the (non-universal) Indo-European agricultural terminology in Anatolia and the preservation of laryngeals. Or did you wrongfully anticipate on any personal interpretation that would have something to do with migrations of Dutch Beakers? :) Even though the Britannica mention 2000 BC, I conform to the lack of explicit support to such a connection. Implicit support I could find in publications of Heyd, though this would be SYNC. Please remember I am a conscientious editor, this would be the wrong diff for making your point. Rokus01 (talk) 17:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

look, the agricultural thing does not support the Indo-Hittite hypothesis either way. The "old" Britannica quote brings it up in the context of the question of Anatolian "invasion" vs. "peaceful migration". This is very very weak in any case and has no place here. If someone has indeed "proffered" this agricultural terminology argument in favour of Indo-Hittite, you will need to state who that was. And you'll need to state it over at Indo-Hittite, not here. It is more than sufficient for the purpose of this article here to quote the Britannica to the effect that there is no consensus either way, and that neither "extreme" take on Indo-Hittite is likely to be correct. dab (𒁳) 18:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

You really lost me here. My paper version concludes: The differences in the terminology used in other Indo-European subgroups indicate that the "Anatolians" seceded from the parent group at an early date, before the common agricultural nomenclature came into being. Your online version produces: Comparisons of Hittite agricultural terms and those of other Indo-European subgroups indicate that the “Anatolians” seceded from the parent group before the creation of a common agricultural nomenclature. Knowing that parent group refers to the PIE branch yielding all other IE languages according to the Indo-Hittite hypothesis: then, what make you think this agriculture terminology argument is not presented here in favour of the Indo-Hittite hypothesis? By the way, proffered was a relict of your rephrasing. And though I don't know exactly what person or persons would or could or should have proffered such a thing (The ones that proffered the hypothesis? Or maybe this Indo-Hittite hypothesis was proffered in favour of Renfrew's Anatolian hypothesis and then proffered vice versa?), I proffer (basing myself on NPOV policy) the entry in Britannica would prove the argument is serious enough to mention. Rokus01 (talk) 19:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Rokus, the statement that the agricultural terminology in Hittite is *not* related to that in other IE languages is hardly equivalent to the statement that the agricultural terminology in Anatolian is "very Indo-European". Can we please have this discussion at Talk:Anatolian languages, and restrict ourselves to merely reporting what the authors are saying without jumping to conclusions? dab (𒁳) 23:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the problem might be in some anachronism introduced by quoting Britannica, that was published before Renfrew revived the Indo-Hittite hypothesis within the context of agriculture. Compare Robinson, The Search for the Hittites (2006):

In a recent presentation, Charles Burney (2003) discussed how this hypothesis, first proposed in just a sketchy outline by Emil Forrer in 1921 and later expanded by Sturtevant in 1938 (see E. H. Sturtevant 1962, a posthumous publication of Sturtevant’s 1938 lecture on the Indo-Hittite hypothesis at the Linguistic Institute at Ann Arbor, Michigan), was largely dismissed until resurrected in the late 1980s in a number of publications espousing theories of Indo-European origin (most notably Renfrew 1987), and, gaining steady support, became the subject of a colloquium at the University of Richmond, Virginia in March of 2000. Burney states that the unavoidable conclusion of the hypothesis, strongly promoted by Colin Renfrew, is that some speakers of Proto-Indo-European migrated out of Anatolia, where speakers of Proto-Anatolian remained and began to diverge and form the Nesite, Luwian, and Palaic languages. Such a scenario has been reasoned to imply that the earliest Proto-Indo-European nucleus, evolving from Proto-Indo-Hittite, developed in the Konya Plain around 7000 BC.

The supposed autochthony of Hittites, the Indo-Hittite hypothesis and migration of agricultural "Indo-European" societies were intrinsically linked together to a separate version of the Indo-Hittite hypothesis, at least explicitly, by Renfrew. (Renfrew, C 2001a The Anatolian origins of Proto-Indo-European and the autochthony of the Hittites. In R. Drews ed., Greater Anatolia and the Indo-Hittite language. family: 36-63. Washington, DC: Institute for the Study of Man).

Though you have a point in the sourcing, this could be improved, I can't see any problem with the veracity of my edit.Rokus01 (talk) 08:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll say again that discussion of the Indo-Hittite question belongs on the Indo-Hittite article. Burney may think it is "unavoidable" that Indo-Hittie implies an Anatolian homeland, but that's nonsense. I'll happily embrace moderate scenarios of IH, but I am very far indeed from concluding the IH homeland (let alone the IE homeland). Say you conclude PIH dates to 6000 BC and "PIE proper" to 4000 BC. It is still anyone's guess whether the Proto-Anatolians moved from the steppe to Anatolia, or whether the pre-PIEans moved from Anatolia to the steppe, and the PIE homeland will still be in the steppe no matter where you put the PIH one. That's really just a big non sequitur that doesn't even belong on this article. dab (𒁳) 12:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Why you are so eager on imposing your single point of view by cutting out all references to other points of view? All this article should pretend to do is to inform the reader of multiple points of view. Even then, this article does not favour the Indo-Hittite hypothesis at all - if this is what you're afraid of. Rokus01 (talk) 01:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

my personal point of view has nothing to do with it. My personal point of view, if you'd like to know, is rather sympathetic towards moderate Indo-Hittite scenarios. There is nothing wrong with the IH hypothesis. It has its own article. All I am doing is preventing you from touting your thinly veiled ideological fringe theories. Really, there is no need to rehash the discussion, I think all has been said. dab (𒁳) 09:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No more reference to mainstream please

Even though utterly undue to this linguistic article, actually I have something to add to my efforts to stop continuous Kurgan POV pushing and the erroneous representation of the Kurgan theory as "mainstream". In the Oxford Companion to Archeology, Mallory (p.348) names three main homeland hypotheses.

• the "broad homeland" hypothesis he categorizes as "one widely accepted theory"
• the different Anatolian variations (grouped together) are mentioned without reference to popularity
• the Kurgan theory is referred to as a theory that "enjoys widespread support".

I am very curious in knowing how a good faith editor would be able to interpret one theory (out of three) that happen to enjoy "widespread support" as "mainstream" above another "widely accepted theory". This book is from 1996, and ever since the Kurgan theory has not been further evidenced in any new research I know of and actually there is a tendency among archeologists to move away from this theory towards the broader concept (my observation). This discussion will lead to nowhere and for the sake or OR we can't allow to push views on our own terms, not at any place. Within this context, we'd better adhere to Mallories concept that the homeland issue remains "one of the most contested issues in prehistoric research" and avoid the hairraising use of "mainstream" altogether. Thanks. Rokus01 (talk) 10:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

"broad homeland" as "Kurgan plus": the steppe plus Northeastern Europe. In the Kurgan hypothesis proper corresponding to the early "Kurganized" cultures of the Corded Ware horizon, 3000 BC. (Yes! the Netherlands appear in orange - rejoice!)

lol, Mallory is one major Kurgan proponent. He is just being polite. I am happy with mentioning the three approaches you mention as those that enjoy notable support. Just as long as you don't attempt your WP:SYN stunts. The "broad homeland" theory is "widely accepted" because it is all-inclusive. It isn't necessarily in contradiction to the Kurgan one, it's just a more agnostic variant of the general Kurgan scenario. dab (𒁳) 20:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you are exaggerating the support of Mallory, since he is honest enough to address its weaknesses and that apart from southeastern Europe, it "cannot demonstrate archeologically the progressive movement of Indo-Europeans into the rest of Europe". And besides, what would "support" need more than some crazed hooligans, or wouldn't it be better to let the issue to the acceptance of specialists on the subject? Rokus01 (talk) 19:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

by "support", I obviously mean "acceptance by specialists on the subject". dab (𒁳) 07:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Change on World Map

Shouldn't China be coloured in light green as Portuguese and English are co-official languages in Macau and Hong Kong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Afigueiro (talk • contribs) 23:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it would confuse people if all of China were colored light green for that reason. It would definitely confuse me. Maybe someone could add light green dots over Macau and Hong Kong. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 05:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Split to new page Language Families

I would be in favor of creating a new page, Language Families, as suggested in the dispute tag. The current Grouping subheading is not specifically a question of the Indo-European family, but of diachronics/typology more generally. Similar controversies over areal features, for example, exist among scholars specializing in other families (e.g. Austronesian).Cnilep (talk) 19:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)