Talk:Individualist feminism

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[edit] iFeminists

Material from ifeminists.net is used with permission of the author and a link to ifeminists.net has been restored. I've reverted to a previous version due to vandalism.

Permission is not enough, you need to have permission to relicense the content under the GNU FDL which means it may be altered and used in ways the original author won't like or intend. If you cannot get such a relicensing permission, the text can not be copied here. Nixdorf 16:00, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Don't remove facts

Whoever removes things from this page, stop it. Do not distort facts, you only get us angry. Please read the Wikipedia NPOV policy, because you most definately have problems following it. For example:

  • Do not try to disassociate the shortform "ifeminism" with libertarian groups, because such a connection exists and is interesting for the reader
  • Do not try to disassociate left-wing views from individualist feminism, because there are many left-wing individualist feminists
  • Do not try to remove references to other strands of feminism which are indeed an interesting comparison

Trying to make a subject impossible to juxtapose to other subjects is propaganda, not encyclopedic.

Nixdorf 06:04, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)

[edit] Question

How is this distinct from anarcha-feminism?

Individualist feminists do not necessarily confess to anarchism whereas anarcha-feminists by definition does. Inidvidualist put themselves (and other selves) ahead of any ideologies, or -isms. Nixdorf 16:03, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
I just made some changes to avoid confusion with anarcha-feminism. While there is certainly a relationship between individualist feminism and anarcho-capitalism, it is very misleading to bring in the term "anarcha-feminist" here, because this term is MUCH more strongly associated with radical feminism then with individualist. Relatively few individualist feminists actually identify with anarnchism, but I removed the statement "Individualist feminism advocates the equal treatment of men and women as individuals under just law," because that would mean NO individualist feminist is an anarchist (anarchy almost literally means "absence of law").--Brian Z 14:57, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree on the use of the term "anarcha-feminism" on this page. Let's see some sources and cites before we start making comparisons between them. The way anarcha-feminism is treated on this article is very biased, and unsupported by sources. Making weasle-statements such as "there are many anarcha-feminists who are also ifeminists" or somesuch, is simply unacceptable! AnAn 02:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Brian Z, it is incorrect to believe that anarchists inherently oppose law. What all anarchists oppose is statutory law. There's a long tradition in anarchism (Spooner, Rothbard, et cetera) in advocating natural law.
Therefore, I disagree with the presumption that the statement "Individualist feminism advocates the equal treatment of men and women as individuals under just law" would preclude anarchists.
Allixpeeke (talk) 02:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] contributions of 200.69.166.68

User:200.69.166.68 keeps putting "In the rest of the world individualist feminists are anti-capitalists and part of anarcha-feminism" onto the bottom of this article. Not only is this unsourced, but it appears contrary to the assertions in the rest of this article. I've left 2 notes on their talk page, without success. AnAn 03:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I've asked for and received (in Spanish) a website about "women creating". I've heard of them, but am not sure about their exact politics. Anyone speak Spanish? [1] and [2]. If these check out, I was thinking of inserting something like. "Outside the US, there are several individualist feminist groups which are also anti-capitalist", and providing these websites as support. AnAn 03:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Most of anarchists women in México, Spain, Chile and Bolivia (that are the feminist that i known) are radical individualists. They continue the way of thinking of Ezra Heywood and Voltairine de Cleyre (free love, etc)and the radicalism of Emma Goldman or the Mujeres Libres group (Spain). They are filosofical individualists and gender activists. You can see that a lot in anarcha-feminists groups.

For us who live out of U.S is very extrange that individualists feminists in U.S are not anarchists or anti-capitalists!

In Europe and Latin america (and i believe the rest of the world) a radical individualist is an anarchist an obviously an anti-capitalists. The same for individualists women.

For us, an individualist anarchist don´t support any domination (bosses included), and capitalism is the rule of the bosses. So an individualist is anti-capitalist.

--200.69.166.68 02:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

--200.69.166.68 02:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


We know a little about Wendy McElroy but we see her like a liberal (that thing that in U.S is Known as Libertarian). And Libertarians is what in Latinamerica we know as Neoliberalism. All anarchists are oppose to Neoliberalism, so we oppose to Wendy McElroy.

What you name as Individualist feminism we name it Liberal feminist and we don´t related it individualists anarchists, so we don´t related it with Ezra Heywood or Voltairine De Cleyre. Individualists anarchists are anti-capitalists, liberals are capitalists. See : Feminismo liberal (Liberal feminism) or Libertarian (capitalists sense) feminism.

I suggest you to change the name or the article to Liberal or Libertarian feminism (or ifeminism) and use Individualist feminist for the anticapitalist individualist feminists of the rest of the world. (That is most bigger and with more people than U.S.)--200.69.166.68 02:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

--200.69.166.68 02:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reponse to Previous Post by 200.69.166.68

You do not have a copyright (pardon the expression) on the title "individualist feminism." You do not seem to know the history of individualist feminism in the US or you would not try to usurp the title for yourself. The US has a long history of individualist feminism just as it has a long history of philosophical individualism. See Joan Kennedy Taylor's book Reclaiming the Mainstream: Individualist Feminism Rediscovered. You apparently know little about the philosophy of individualism if you do not understand why it is compatible with free enterprise (what you call "capitalism"). You have no right to ask that North American individualist feminists like Wendy McElroy and myself not use this term just because you don't like our views. We would not do this to you. Speaking for myself, I do not think such intolerance serves feminism very well.

SPresley 08:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)Sharon Presley

[edit] libertarian feminist

is what this article should be called. Libertarians are pro-capitalism, not anarchists.


A response to the above anonymous comment:

You are wrong, whoever you are. I have been an anarchist for almost 40 years and I am also a libertarian. Just because you don't like our brand of anarchism doesn't mean you get to redefine the terms. Opposition to the coercive rule of a monopoly state is what defines anarchism, not the economic system. You may believe that free enterprise is coercive but we do not agree. Please note that NO libertarian or individualist anarchist advocates the kind of state corporate capitalism that we have today. THAT is NOT free enterprise.

Perhaps you should try reading the great anarchist feminist Voltairine de Cleyre, who said: "There is nothing un-Anarchistic about [Individualism, Communism, Socialism, or Mutualism] until the element of compulsion enters and obliges unwilling people to remain in a community whose economic arrangements they do not agree to."

If you tried to force me to be in the economic system you like or prevented me from peacefully living in the system I prefer, than you would not be an anarchist.

Voltairine also said: "Anarchism means freedom to the soul as well as the body--in every aspiration, every growth...Each choose that method which expresses your selfhood best, and condemn no man because he expresses his Self otherwise."

I choose free enterprise and private property but I would never force that choice on anyone else. I would hope you would extend me the same courtesy.

Sharon Presley [not afraid to be nonanonymous]—Preceding unsigned comment added by SPresley (talk • contribs) 08:55, 29 July 2006

[edit] This article needs a lot of work

  • First, I thought the cite in main article said needs more references, not that there are not any
  • But it does needs a lot more research and references soon or about 80% of the article should be deleted soon as mere personal opinions.
  • a lot of clumbsy writing
  • not clear what the differences are between ALF and other individual feminists mentioned
  • anarcha feminism article also pretty bad and not clear if it is relevant here at all, despite some abstruse reference that doesn't sound very definitive; more research needed
  • abortion section pretty bad

So many crappy libertarian articles, so little time to clean them up!! Carol Moore 05:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc

[edit] The Anarchism Template

Is it appropriate to include the anarchism template here? I would personally argue that it's not, that libertarian feminism is not inherently anarchistic, nor inherently statist; that it, like libertarianism in general, bridges the gap between minarchism and anarchism. In the same way the anarchism template wouldn't be included on the libertarianism page, neither too would I argue it should be included here.

Sincerely,
Alex Peak
Allixpeeke (talk) 03:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Nice meeting you here also! As you can see above, this has been debated. If there was a Limited Government category then both could be inserted making it balanced. Someone probably should start that category. I think the bigger problem is lack of references for various claims. I especially don't know/can't remember what differences there might between ALF and other contemporary individuals feminists so unless someone references that soon I'm going to just put them all together. See my post directly above.

Carol Moore 19:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
Not really sure whether the template is appropriate or not. But I do know that Wendy McElroy calls herself an "individualist anarchist" so confusion about the difference between individualist anarchism, individualist feminism and Anarcha-feminism might be the reason for its addition here. I think Carol's point about limited govt. as a category is a good idea--Cailil talk 21:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit warring

RE: this edit and the several reverts/restorations before it. Edit warring is bad juju! Mikkalai's point is sound: the problem with the text is that the part in parentheses is not supported by the reference attached to it (which simply discusses anarcho-feminism is; here's a direct link to the ref on Google books if anyone wants to read it). If you want to make a claim about the relative popularity of I-F vs. A-F in different places then that needs to be supported. The link given does not do that. -- Hux (talk) 01:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree the assertions as to popularity seemed unsupported and I've tried a less sweeping wording. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Mikkalai I'm ok with your edit here, which is not revert warring, but helpful clarification (never mind your combative edit summary, which is not that big of a deal to me). Gwen Gale (talk) 01:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)