Talk:Indian mathematics/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Old discussion 2 Nau 3 Pythagorean Theorem 4 Vedic mathematics 5 Article structure 6 Hic Rhodus, hic salta 7 this article is shit

Old discussion

This is a nationalist orgy. A good article could be written on this subject; it might even use the list of boasts in the middle section as a framework - but to ascribe the invention of trigonometry to someone who lived two centuries after Claudius Ptolemy is nonsense. Septentrionalis 19:49, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok so if it is shown that the sheet anchor for Indian history, so that it could be matched with the western one was maliciously moved by 1200 years, would it make the stuff in here more palatable?? http://www.geocities.com/sistlas/history-reconst.htm?200627 Mpan

Many of the claims on this page are patently false. I will do what I can, but this page desperately needs an expert in this field.

Nau

Who is this Nau, that is quoted? I could find anything about him, the quote would be much more of value if there was a link to who this person is. --62.216.23.119 15:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Pythagorean Theorem

I don't think there is anyone who thinks the Pythagorus was the first to state the Pythagorean theorem. Indeed it was likely used well before even 800 BC (look at the article). The fact that the Indians were the first to use a "proof with specific numbers" is nonsense. Using specific numbers is not a proof at all, it merely shows one special case. The first real proof we have is due to Euclid. A "proof with specific numbers" does not imply any deeper understanding of geometry, or an understanding of what constitutes a proof. Thus, the pythagorean theorem was used well before Indian mathematicians, and it was first proved by Greek mathematicians. Grokmoo 16:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Could some one please refer me to the original sources of these proofs by Euclid etc. I have come to know from various sources that the original greek works were lost and survived only in the Arabic translation. Arabs are supposed to have recieved much of their mathematical knowledge from India as well. Considering how even after knowing the source of the mordern numerals ("On the Use of the Indian Numerals" (Ketab fi Isti'mal al-'Adad al-Hindi) 830AD), the Britsh chose to call them Arabic numerals for a long time until they were discovered on some stones in India, it casts suspicions on many of these thing attributed to the early Greek mathematicians.charudutt 06:24, 31 July 2006

First of all, calm down. This discussion - what consitutes real proof and what is just silly amatuers dabbling with numbers and have no deep understanding of geometry is not for this page. After reading through the Pythagorean theorem page, I am understanding that Indians were the first to state the theorum and first to give a numerical proof (one that uses specific numbers but in such a way that it can be generalized - not one case as you mentioned). I will change this page to reflect that. If you disagree with wording or timeline please discuss on the Pythagorean theorem page. If I have understood it incorrectly - Indians first to stating theorum and numerical proof - please discuss on this page. --Pranathi 01:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that there is any consensus that Indians were the first to state the theorem. There is strong evidence that it was used as far back as 2000 BC, by the monolith builders in ancient Britain and elsewhere. Indeed, there is a specific example of a solution of a problem involving the pythagorean theorem on a Bablyonian tablet which I believe is circa 1200 BC. Furthermore, "numerical proof" is nonsensical. "Proving" the pythagorean with specific numbers, but in such a way that you could also use other specific numbers and prove it for them, as well, is no proof at all.

I did not at any point imply that the Indian mathematicians were "silly amatuers" or anything of the like. They certainly had many important contributions to mathematics and science.

I have changed the wording to what I hope is an agreeable compromise. As I do not dispute the accuracy of anything written on the pythagorean theorem page, only on this page, I do believe that this is the appropriate place for this discussion. - Grokmoo

The page says Circa 2500 BCE, Megalithic monuments on the British Isles incorporate right triangles with integer sides. B.L. van der Waerden conjectures that these Pythagorean triples were discovered algebraically. I am reading that not as strong evidence but as conjecture by one person. Pythogorean triples were known by many civilizations but not their algebraic nature. To tell you the truth, I am becoming very weary of modern interpretations of mathematical history. If the same monuments were found anywhere other than Europe, there is not much chance anyone would have cared to attribute more knowledge than is directly visible - knowledge of Pythogorean triples.

In any case, the current wording is agreeable. --Pranathi 16:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

What does it mean by integer sides? What units are those? How is it known that the units correspond to the presents ones? Even in this age when we have SI system of units we need to deal with the fps system in scientific education in the US. Even if it is some how shown that the lengths are integers, what shows the use of Pythagorean triples there? kindly enlighten. raksasha 9:30, 1 August… 2006

It is very interesting to see Westerners not accept the fact that in the ancient world, Eastern civilizations were more advanced than the European civilization. Nobody questions the Eurocentrism in science and technology in the modern times, but it is high time to accept the contribtuions in the ancient world from not just India (which undoubtedly has the maximum contribution to the foundations of mathematics as we know it today), but from other parts of the world, specifically Asian countries, as well, besides Greece and Egypt (which, surprisingly enough, has been given credit despite not being in Europe, perhaps due to its proximity to Europe and the fact that a lot of 'European' ideas were adopted directly from there). While earliest records of trigonometry as a studied discipline exist perhaps from Greece, no doubt exists about the fact that there are much older allusions to geometry and trigonometry in the Vedas and Hindu scriptures dating earlier than 1000 BCE. Moreover, what is found in Greece is only the elements of trigonometry. Trigonometry developed as a well-explored science in India later on, and this is exactly what the text on Indian mathematics implies. Apalaria 19:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)apalaria

If you can, you should try to get a copy of some of Ptolemy's work. If you read the Almagest, you will find a quite complete and comprehensive development of trigonometry. It is certain that many of these ideas were well known to the Greeks well before Ptolemy, but his work is sufficient to place the development of trigonometry at least as early as about 150 CE. Vague references in scripture are not development of mathematics. If you know of even a relatively complete treatment that was written before this time, I would love to see it, but I do not think any such treatise exists. Unless you can prove otherwise, the statement that the Indians developed trigonometry is patently false. Grokmoo 15:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed the reference to trigonometry. However, I do think this Aryabhata should probably be mentioned on this page, but I am not sure where and how, so I'll let someone else decide. Grokmoo 15:06, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that most (a lot, rather) of the works of Indian mathematicians/astronomers/etc. were destroyed in the course of the several invasions that happened. Hence, today there is not enough paper (or whatever) evidence of the original works simply because they no longer exist. It is indeed unfortunate that the works have been destroyed. As for westerners, a very few of them actually even know that science and mathematics ever existed in ancient India. And telling them so usually evokes skepticism. Rohitbd 14:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

If the evidence is destroyed, why are you sure the groundbreaking works ever existed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.199.22.40 (talk • contribs) 02:53, July 2, 2006

On the remains of Nalanda University it is mentioned how a robber named Ikhtiyaruddin from Afganistan came with his small band of 600 dacoits and burnt the university, killed thousands of scholars. The huge collection of precious books kept in the library were destroyed and those treasures of mankind remained burning continuously for six months.[[User:mpan|mp}} 21:31, July 31, 2006

Burned for six continuous months???

Vedic mathematics

Main article: Vedic mathematics

Propose a name change for the article from Vedic mathematics - to something like Vedic mathematics system by Shri Bharati Krishna Tirtha or Mental calculation system of Vedic mathematics.

- OR -

Change the section title of this article to "Mathematics of/from Vedas" or something like that. --ΜιĿːtalk 08:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I've written a note in the Vedic Mathematics section of this article to inform the reader that the article Vedic mathematics is based on a system developed by Shri Bharati Krishna Tirtha. - Jagged 85, 18/01/2006

Thanks Jagged. Though I think it doesn't help much in absence of some stronger disambig or unless the other article is renamed more descriptively. Because, a user querying for Vedic + Mathematics would always land up on that page - where there are 3 disambig notices already! --ΜιĿːtalk 11:41, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Article structure

Shouldn't this article talk about Indian Mathematics rather than Indian Mathematicians? There should be a List of Indian Mathematicians article covering this material, and Indian mathematics should be about Indian mathematics in general. In short, there are probably too much lists. There's a lot of great material in here that should be written in prose. Borisblue 13:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

You are right. The article is more of a list of mathematicians in its present state. Needs to be significantly improved. -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}04:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Hic Rhodus, hic salta

Anybody claiming Indian priority in inventing calculus please quote the ancient sources. Don't tell me the dog ate them or the invading Turks burnt them. I want to see your proof!

You want to see the proof? Go to Oxford or Cambridge.Your comment seems to be ridiculing the indian science and tradition. Almost all the original high value indian mathematics books were stolen from India and made available at Oxford and Cambridge around 18th centuary. Even before this Indian science and reached Europe. Sanskrit and many other Indian languages were taught in these universities, simply to stole ideas from the Indian books. It is a fact that Indian mathematics and science except Ayurveda, were never formulated as a solid systematic study like what the Europeans did. It was never co-ordinated. Instead the foolish Indian kings promoted poetry and arts. Even the science were explained through some ridiculous stories. Indians were even well aware of the theory of the origin of the universe (the Big Bang Singularity). Their concept also suggested the 'Singularity' in form of "Omkara". Also the 'Theory of Evolution' was first evident in the 'Garuda Purana' as Lord Vishnu's 'Dasavataras'. The idea is exactly similar what Darwin said some 3000years later! But the only problem lies in the addition of some irrelevant stories into this great scientific theory. Westerners cleary differentiated Science and Arts, but the Indians didn't. Here lies the problem. And it doesn't mean that Indian Science is underdeveloped. Surely, the Indian technology was underdeveloped, but not Indian science. The Indians calculated with precision, the 'Time Periods' and Inter-stellar distances of astronomical bodies and stars even 500AD. Does it mean that Newton and Kepler travelled to India in 500AD to teach Indian mathematicians how to calculate this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.192.94.150 (talk) 03:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

Thank you for an excellent comment. Good introduction to Hindutva reasoning for unenlightened Westerners :) 212.199.22.107 23:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

PS When I say sources I do not mean Hindutva booklets. Surely if some Indian mathematician 'long before Newton' used the notions of say derivative and integral in his work, he can be quoted directly. 212.199.22.126 00:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

A lot of work and ideas by Indian scientists were disregarded due to Eurocentric views of Western scientists. Yuktibhasa is the ancient text by Jyeshtadeva of Kerala School describing Calculus. -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}03:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

So quote him. You seem to be genuinely convinced that Jyeshtadeva is the author of the first calculus text in the world. You surely have read this book. So please just quote some meaningful calculus passage from his book. 212.199.22.219 22:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Disscussion continues on Talk:Calculus-- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}05:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

this article is shit

how was the quintic solved? or does my angloeuroamerciocentric racism stop me from being able to see it?

my dear Indian friends, please PLEASE PLEASE speak competently AND correctly about the contributions Indian mathematics have made and continue to make. where's Ramanujan or AKS? stop with this crap about squaring the circle and circling the square. --69.243.218.234 02:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)