Talk:Indian martial arts/Archive 2

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Reply to "Still no Proof"

You still haven't given the name of that Taoist monk who was a dissenter of the Shaolinists.

The name of that Taoist monk is Zining Daoren (literally "Zining, the Taoist") and I don't think he had grievances against the Shaolin monks, just that he was following a historically common Chinese practice of attributing one's own work to a famous historical figure in order to give it authority.

Also, where are your sources (quotes from books, at least a web site)?

It's my fault that there's no quote. Kennethtennyson originally put one in, but I removed it because I didn't feel that a lengthy quotation on the Yi Jin Jing belonged on the Indian martial arts page. Here's what I removed:

“ As for the “Yi Jin Jing” (Muscle Change Classic), a spurious text attributed to Bodhidharma and included in the legend of his transmitting martial arts at the temple, it was written in the Ming dynasty, in 1624 CE, by the Daoist priest Zining of Mt. Tiantai, and falsely attributed to Bodhidharma. Forged prefaces, attributed to the Tang general Li Jing and the Southern Song general Niu Gao were written. They say that, after Bodhidharma faced the wall for nine years at Shaolin temple, he left behind an iron chest; when the monks opened this chest they found the two books “Xi Sui Jing” (Marrow Washing Classic) and “Yi Jin Jing” within. The first book was taken by his disciple Huike, and disappeared; as for the second, “the monks selfishly coveted it, practicing the skills therein, falling into heterodox ways, and losing the correct purpose of cultivating the Real. The Shaolin monks have made some fame for themselves through their fighting skill; this is all due to having obtained this manuscript.” Based on this, Bodhidharma was claimed to be the ancestor of Shaolin martial arts. This manuscript is full of errors, absurdities and fantastic claims; it cannot be taken as a legitimate source. (Lin Boyuan. (1996) Zhōngguó wǔshù shǐ. Táiběi: Wǔzhōu chūbǎnshè. p. 183) ”

Other books include Tang Hao's Investigation into Shaolin and Wudang and Matsuda Ryuchi's Historical Outline of Chinese Martial Arts. Stanley Henning has used these as sources for his English language articles. Henning is even more doubtful than Lin and Matsuda about the age of the Bodhidharma legend, which he dates to the 20th century. I quote from his article "Ignorance, Legend and Taijiquan."

“ While Shaolin was the ideal symbol to represent the more numerous, popular styles of boxing, this gave rise to serious misunderstandings and, as a result, later works, beginning with Zhang Kongzhao's boxing manual (1784), attributed the origins of Chinese boxing to Shaolin Monastery, (there is no mention of Bodhidharma until much later - c. 1900).

....
Why does there appear to be such concern to associate Taijiquan with the Zhang Sanfeng legend between 1912 and 1921, over 60 years after the style of boxing practiced in Chenjiagou village had been given the name "Taijiquan" and exposed to the big city? The answer may lie in a combination of events which began with the earliest reference to "The Dharma" or Bodhidharma as the originator of Shaolin boxing in a widely popular novel, The Travels of Lao Ts'an first published in Illustrated Fiction Magazine between 1904-1907.

 ”

On the subject of Daruma Bodhidarma, what makes you think that he was not Tamil? Isn't Kanchipuram in Tamil Nadu? Please tell me that Kanchipuram is not in Tamil Nadu and I will believe you. I could be wrong. Wasn't Kanchipuram the Capital of the Tamil Pallavas?

None of the primary sources about Bodhidharma's life—not the Record of the Buddhist Monasteries of Lo-Yang (547 CE) nor the Two Entrances (c. 600 CE) nor the Continued Biographies of Eminent Monks (645 CE) nor the Anthology of the Patriarchal Hall (952 CE) nor the Jingde Records of the Transmission of the Lamp (1004 CE)—says anything about Kanchipuram or the Pallava dynasty.

Please provide a reliable source which says that Bodhidharma was born in Kanchipuram into the Pallava dynasty.

And it's just "Bodhidharma," not "Daruma Bodhidharma". "Daruma" is short for "Bodhidharma" in Japanese ("Bodaidaruma") so when you say "Daruma Bodhidharma" it's like calling someone named "Johnathan" "John Johnathan".

Why do you discredit Tamil martial arts or culture in general.

Why do you try to take the credit for the martial arts of China and Southeast Asia?

Is it the fact that the Tamils believe in Lemuria?

According to the theory of plate tectonics, which—and I say this with the utmost confidence—is universally accepted among credible geologists, Lemuria is a physical impossibility.

Is it offensive to state that Bodhidarma was a Tamil?

No, but if you want to say so in a Wikipedia article, you need to cite a reliable source.

Is it because Tamils resemble that of African decent and are not of a somewhat purer race as you might imagine, lets say the "Persians" or "Central Asians".

No, it's because the oldest of the primary sources on Bodhidharma, Yang Xuanzhi's eyewitness account in the Record of the Buddhist Monasteries of Lo-yang, describes him as "a Persian Central Asian".

“ The intriguing line, of course is po-szu kuo hu-jen ("a Persian Central Asian"). According to Berthold Laufer, Sino-Iranica (1919; reprint, Taipei: Ch'eng Wen Publishing Company, 1978), 194-95, the term hu relates to Central Asia and particularly to peoples of Iranian extraction. What we seem to have is an Iranian speaker who hailed from somewhere in Central Asia.

....
There is, however, nothing implausible about an early sixth-century Iranian Buddhist master who made his way to North China via the fabled Silk Road. This scenario is, in fact, more likely than a South Indian master who made his way by the sea route. [Broughton, Jeffrey L. (1999). The Bodhidharma Anthology: The Earliest Records of Zen. Berkeley: University of California Press.]

 ”

None of the primary sources says that Bodhidharma was Tamil. "South Indian," yes, but not specifically Tamil. What's to say that he wasn't Telugu? And, again, none of the primary sources says anything about Kanchipuram or the Pallavas. JFD 15:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Enough is enough

  • I've cited the official versions of both the Gracie and Shaolin websites. If you have any problems with the official versions then do take it up with Shaolin and the Gracies, the fact that you'll have to live with though, is these are official versions and will be put down as such.
  • The idea of "god kings" and other slurs that you incorporate in your arguments is a watse of time. Mallayuddha is a form of wrestling described in the Mahabharat and is also described in Doss's works as Mal-Yutham, it existed, Live with it.
  • The Kshatriya systems will be mentioned, and their importance will not be downplayed because they were the warrior caste, like the samurai of japan had their own system of martial combat, which even till now in some areas is accesible only to the Kshatriyas of India.
  • The article which the other guy wrote was disgusting, please refrain from letting the articles go down the drain as such.
  • Dhalsim uses Yoga as his fighting style, Live with it. As much as it and other facts frustrate you, They're true.
  • Doss's works will be cited, if you want to strip him of his posts and accomplishments, do so in court.

Wikipedia is not a playground for those with a frustrated sense of what they believe in, hopelessly screaming "horrible horrible" and having mock panic attacks was entertaining for awhile but enough is enough. I've been working my ass off citing official versions and historical viewpoints from professors alongwith an assortment of websites which pertain to the same view ........ and what do I get ?? People telling me that the websites are made by idiots, the prof's a fraud, they know the history of the Shaolin better than the Shaolin itself and no matter how credible the sources are they're too frustrated to accept it.

And about the tone, I did tell you it will be turned more enclyclopedic, more official citations will be mentioned and more credibility ensured. However frustrating you might feel, it'll happen and will be done credibly, Try living with it and not messing the article all up like you seem to be doing. Freedom skies 06:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been working my ass off citing official versions and historical viewpoints from professors alongwith an assortment of websites which pertain to the same view
What professors have you cited? JFD 15:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

About the controversy

There is no controversy, none at all about the fighting style of Dhalsim, about the official statements regrading the Tsumi Hozan Jujutsu, Goju Ryu Karate, Shaolin martial arts and Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

The official versions have stated what they want, no matter how frustrating it might sound to people who want it to be otherwise and are willing to try and attempt strange stunts for that purpose.

This topic is not controversial at all, the official citations (cry yourselves hoarse all you want about their credibilty too, and act as if you know more about their history then they do) stand and will be stated. Live with it. Freedom skies 06:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

are you insane? dhalsim is a video game character!!!!!!... they (capcom) did not mold dhalsim after any indian martial arts at all. I don't think that there is any indian martial arts out there that allows you to stretch your arms to impossible lengths, float in mid air and breathe fire along with teleportation as a superpower. if you would read more about the stuff that kenneth tennsyon and JFD are talking about and quit inserting yhour own ideas then we wouldn't have this issue.Steelhead 14:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, yes, since i happened to just venture into this discussion, i checked up on alex doss. He is a president of one branch of this college organization. In america, the only way you can be a president of a college organization is if you actually go to college. thus, doss is probably only 18-21 years old and most likely he has yet to graduate from college. Why in the world are you using a website from the ramblings of a teenager in college? ARe you Alex Doss!!!??? Further, there are tons and tons of Shaolin websites out there headed by tons and tons of Shaolin monks... why in the world do you decide to cite only one Shaolin website? and why in the world do you keep on citing this Graycie character? Kenneth tennyson is right, why don't you just cite Jet Li's website while you are at it. Steelhead 14:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Argumentative but entertaining as always. I suggested Dhalsim in the Indian martial arts in pop culture section and someone changed his fighting style as one that incorporated other martial arts and Yoga instead of "Yoga" alone, that's why I especially mentioned that Dhalsim's style was Yoga, not anything else. I never said you could strech your limbs infinitely, you just dreamed it up and replied to yourself like (and seems you felt pretty good too, seeing that you went all "are you insane ??" and "Oh, yes, since i happened to just venture into this discussion", do keep at the attempts of sarcasm though, they're entertaining).

About the dozens of Shaolin sites, this one is official, try living with that, and it credits India not matter how much that frustrates you. Intrestingly enough you did not even stop to think why Tsumi Hozan and Goju ryu mention the same fact, INDIA, maybe it's true after all huh ?? or as your alternative insinuates, they've all gone crazy or do you have more knowledge about martial arts then their official versions ???

As for Doss, discredit him in court. Your idea of going "Oh, yes, since i happened to just venture into this discussion" and trying to discredit people does'nt cut it. Freedom skies 15:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


this is similar to the discussion i had 2 years ago on some other indian martial arts

these are almost the same arguments i had 1-2 years ago when i dealt with some prior indian martial arts. Every 4 months i have these discussions online. anyways, if you are going to use random websites, why don't you use this chinese Museum's article (and this is a museum)... Regardless, i saw a few websites that stated that all Indian Martial arts came from Greece after the Greek empire invaded india... I also saw a few other websites that said all Indian martial arts came from the Middle East and then I saw a few religious websites that said that all martial arts came from Aliens from outerspace... should I believe those random websites too??


Here is the article from the Ving Tsun museum....

"At Linshan Village of Xitianwei Township in Putian at the ruins of the Southern Shaolin Temple, there is a stone trough. It is engraved with Chinese calligraphy proclaiming that two Monk soldiers, Yongqi and Jinqi, of Linquanyuan Temple, the original name of the Southern Shaolin Temple, made this trough in September of the Year Jiayou of the Song Dynasty.

The mere existence of this archeological evidence gives rise to three key questions: 1. What is a Monk Soldier? 2. Did “Monk Soldiers” exist throughout Shaolin history? 3. How and why did monk soldiers come to Linshan in Fujian Province?

I. What is a Monk Soldier?

In answering the first question, we must begin by noting that the term ‘Monk’ refers specifically to a Shaolin Buddhist monk. There were Shaolin fighting monks who were treated as soldiers. Students often note the paradox between a monastic advocacy of standing aloof from worldly affairs and refusing to kill any life and a monastic development of a soldier that would take life without batting an eyelid. They wonder how the two can stand side by side.

To explain the existence of Monk Soldiers, we need to go back to the earliest inhabitants of the Shaolin Temple. The official position of the Temple and Chinese Government historians today is that the original monks were retired military men and robber barons looking to live out the remainder of their lives in a tolerant setting with others of their kind. In other words, the original Shaolin Temple possessed martial arts experience from its inception. Shortly after the Temple’s creation, history pushed the Temple into the military limelight, as seen in the story of thirteen cudgel fighting monks saving the early Tang Dynasty Emperor’s life. During the transition from the Sui Dynasty to the Tang Dynasty (619 A.D.), Wang Shicong (a general from the previous dynasty who possessed Imperial aspirations of his own) occupied Luoyang City as a stronghold for its defile. In September of that year, Emperor Li Shimin deployed a large army to besiege Luoyang City. At this key point, Zhicao and Tangzong, two Shaolin monks, started an uprising against Wang Shicong. They captured Wang Renze, the nephew of the rogue general. Zhicao and Tangzong, along with other monks, joined Emperor Li Shimin’s army and helped convince Wang Renze to provide assistance key to overcoming Wang Shicong. Following subsequent victory, Li Shimin went on to unify China. He so appreciated the help from the Shaolin Monks that he granted them an imperial jade seal authorizing the Shaolin Temple to organize Monk Soldiers. Wherein other temples have monks that practice martial arts, this is the first, and only official government sanction in Chinese history for monastic creation of monk soldiers.

From this historical anecdote, we know that Tang Emperor Li Shimin chartered the Shaolin Temple to organize a monk army, most likely because Shaolin monks had helped him to establish his power and might be needed for similar action in the future. It laid the groundwork for Shaolin monk soldiers to become China’s ‘special forces’ for meeting specific military needs. This explains the difference between the Shaolin Temples and other temples in China: Shaolin legally trained armed Monks who were proficient with Kung Fu, and only Shaolin could legally maintain an army of Monk Soldiers. Other Buddhist temples did not have this same privilege...."Kennethtennyson 15:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

you still have not answered any of our questions... you are using random websites... anyone can make a website and state that they are shaolin monks... there are tons of websites out there that state that they are the one and true shaolin monk website... further, you still haven't explained why you keep on using Alex Doss.. he is not a history professor... if he were he would have a Ph.D behind his name. I can find no listing at all of his name at that California University that you mention under any history professor title. If you don't want to read books and want to use websites, why don't you use the website by the chinese governement and japanese governements that state that Chinese Wushu occured during the 7th century b.c. or so and that Japanese Jiujutsu is native to Japan and not brought from outside. Further, while you are at it, the problem with your Dhalsim statement is that if you ever played Street Fighter (a VIDEO game), most of his fighting techniques are made up.... His fighting techniques revolve around stretching his limbs, floating in the air and breathing fire along with teleportation. There is no martial arts out there that allows you to do that... hence, his character can not represent any martial arts. Capcom (the company that made the VIDEO game) just put him in there because they thought it was interesting at the time to get a selection of warriors from around the world. Kennethtennyson 15:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Look, you need to stop reverting... and if you do revert, don't state that this is not a disputed article or that the facts are not in dispute as they obviously are... we dispute almost everything that you are stating on the article. I've seen some of the other articles that you have written and almost everyone who has gone over your articles has disputed them... so open up your mind and quit being so biased. Kennethtennyson 15:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


First the aliens invented martial arts thing and now this, what you've seen is the recent works, two topics to be specific. I've done a lot of good work which withstood everything in wikipedia, if you went deeper and did not take a simple, superficial look like I think you always do if your MA history is anything to go by then you'd understand.

Plus trying to discredit guys like Doss and me and dissing institues like the Shaolin is really not going to help all that much, y'know that right ??

Now that I'm through selling the idea that I'm not such a bad guy after all, here's why the controversy exists not in the article but in a few frustrated minds.

see ??? I'm writing the fighting style of this CAPCOM game charecter and suddenly it sends you into a tizzy, the game charecter's fighting style is fradulently changed, what I'm doing is well, just mentioning the fighting style of a pixeled game charecter, and doing so while being encyclopedic and you just don't want it there, no way, don't mention the IMA in pop culture because it offends your confused monk in LA style.

The thing is, you're trying to upset the official versions becase you'd like them to be otherwise, the official versions of Jujutsu, Karate and arts from Shaolin credit India and for some reason it's really hard for you to digest. In time you'll come to live with the fact that official versions end controversy and after the official versions are cited the controversy tag exists in your head and not in wikipedia.

See ?? I'll revert the articles to the from where it had official citation and verifiable content (styles of game charecters and all, which you fradulently altered to false information). I'll add more official citations in time and will the article even more verifiable, it'll happen and unless you go to court against the official versions you'll just have to live with it.Freedom skies 16:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

the official versions of Jujutsu, Karate and arts from Shaolin credit India and for some reason it's really hard for you to digest.
From the "official" version of Karate which you cite:[1]
“ Based on mans' instinct of self-defense, different fighting arts were developed in most cultures, especially in central Asia, Egypt and Turkey. The principles of the Asian martial arts are believed to have spread from Turkey to India, where they were further developed to sophisticated arts ("kalaripayt"). ”
JFD 17:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
“ The history of Karate as we know it today can be taken back to India, perhaps two thousand years before the Christian Era. ”

Freedom skies 22:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

over the top

ok freedom skies, you are going over the top here. I've read a lot of the articles that you have been a part of, and as far as i can tell most people are totally against the vast majority of the things that you write. you seem to be quite biased also as you seem to be proposing a pro-hindu, pro-tamil view of the world. And then when most people disagree you then state "tough luck... live with it". Look you really need to open your mind. the world has a lot of views and when a bunch of people disagree with you and then start quoting books, encyclopedias, and such telling you that your view of world history might be incorrect, you should really consider that what they are stating might have smidgeon of truth... and you should really stop reading random websites... and that website that you quoted does state that the martial arts of India came from the middle east so i guess that all Tamil martial arts came from the middle east then, eh? and by the way, have you ever played STREET FIGHTER? I don't know of any YOGA practices that allows anyone to float, stretch their limbs, teleport, or breathe fire because this is what DHalsm does as his martial arts moves in the Street Fighter video games. Kennethtennyson 20:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm neither proposing a pro hindu nor proposing the pro Tamil point of views, the thing you're going to have to live with is that the official versions mention India and it'll be stated with no downplaing of official information no matter how many tantrums you or anybody else goes into. Plus, many websites on martial arts strengthen the fact, I'll compile a database of a lot of these websites and will mention it here to point that the fact the view is endorsed by a substantial amout of martial arts authorities (very respectable ones included).
About trying your hand at discrediting me, I'll work and show my credibility and not go all "I'm a practicing Chow Yun Fat wannabe from LA", thank you. The world does have a lot of views, The Tsumi Hozan (Japan), Goju Ryu (Japan) and the Shaolin (China) seem to tell you that people in Japan and China are not as insecure about exchanges with ancient civilizations as some people in LA. Live with it.
And about Dhalsim, so, it's impossible to exactly duplicate a game charecter , who said you had to roam the streets of LA to find the answer ?? He's just a game charecter, quit losing your sleep over him, get it ?? Screaming "Over the Top" and all, I've played Street Fighter (though, I always liked Mortal Kombat better) and his fighting style is mentioned as Yoga, It's common sense that he's fictional and should not prance in your nightmares as such.
I'll agree with the idea that you don't know your yoga though, you seem to think of it as a simple one dimensional art. Lemme enlighten you a bit, there are many kinds of Yoga and many types mentioned in wikipedia itself if you cared, apparently you don't.
Does the word "Prahar" ring a bell ?? Did'nt think it would.
Look, I don't exactly care if the truth is outside of your comfort zone on this, it happened according to many official statements and will be noted as such.
Live with it.
Freedom skies 22:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)