Talk:Indian martial arts

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Reviewed version: October 19, 2006
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[edit] look, you're misquoting your sources

vale tudo does not claim to have its origins or is influenced by ancient indian fighting methods. the article just says that this ancient indian art was a vale tudo equivalent. he's just making comparisons not stating that one influenced the other. Vale tudo just means "anything goes" in Brazilian if i am correct.

Also, you can't say that Brazilian jiu jitsu claims its origins in India because that federation that you quote as a website is one of many JU Jitsu federations (they actually spell jujitsu differently) and is a splinter off the major jujitsu federation that is involved in international competitions. Not all practitioners of brazilian jiu jitsu belong to that federation and many belong to the major jujitsu federation that has organizations in japan, which do not make those claims. Hence I used the word many.

Glad you decided to get rid of the whacky alex doss ramblings. Kennethtennyson 22:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

---

Vale tudo just means "anything goes" in Brazilian if i am correct.

No you're not correct. It's Portugese language.

Also, you can't say that Brazilian jiu jitsu claims its origins in India because that federation that you quote as a website is one of many JU Jitsu federations (they actually spell jujitsu differently)

Your ignorance is highlighted by the fact that you don't seem to have an idea of grandmaster Helio Gracie's rewording of Jujutsu.

is a splinter off the major jujitsu federation that is involved in international competitions.

Main BJJ fed ? The Gracie family found the system. Just read the official citations from them. More citations from the Gracie family will be provided on request or provocation, whichever extended first.

Not all practitioners of brazilian jiu jitsu belong to that federation

Not everyone living practitioner of BJJ on earth has the honor of being a part of the legendary Gracie family, I'll give you that. How is it useful again ?

Not all practitioners of brazilian jiu jitsu belong to that federation and many belong to the major jujitsu federation that has organizations in japan, which do not make those claims.

You do understand the difference between BJJ and JJ right, Kenny ? or are you intent on using Wikipedia as a vehicle to advertise your ignorance.

Yet again, Kenny. You talk about things you don't know.

Freedom skies| talk  21:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Brazilians speak a Brazilian variant of Portuguese, which is Brazil's national language. As I stated before, you keep on selectively using websites. Various books written by Renzo Gracie (if you actually read them instead of selectively going to websites) question the Bodhidharma legend as a source. Further, Brazilian jujitsu is derived from japanese jujitsu and judo and the Ministry of Education in Japan along with the japanese organizations do not make these claims. Kennethtennyson 15:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Brazilians speak a Brazilian variant of Portuguese, which is Brazil's national language.

So it would be called Portugese language then ?

Various books written by Renzo Gracie (if you actually read them instead of selectively going to websites) question the Bodhidharma legend as a source.

Are you sure you want me to respond to your argument ? Renzo Gracie has mentioned the Shared Conditions theory and other theories.

Oh, on Page 4 there is also an interesting mention of "purported influence of the Shaolin temple on the Japanese fighting styles."

Something to think about.

Freedom skies| talk  03:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

you really need to read your references more thoroughly. he debunks that theory. regardless, he's not a historian. if i wanted to learn bjj, i'd read his book. if i want to learn history, i'd read a book written by a professor at a university.Kennethtennyson 14:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

you really need to read your references more thoroughly.

I do, Kenny. He's not my source though. You mentioned him.

he debunks that theory.

This is related to martial arts. Are you following any of this? He "debunks" the theory that the Shaolin influenced Japanese arts. Something explicitely implicated in the Disputed Indian origins of East Asian martial artsarticle. Contradicting yourself?

if i wanted to learn bjj, i'd read his book. if i want to learn history, i'd read a book written by a professor at a university.

This is related to martial arts. Are you sure you're at home with this, Kenny?

It was you who said (and I quote) "Various books written by Renzo Gracie (if you actually read them instead of selectively going to websites) question the Bodhidharma legend as a source."

Like I said. More talk page vandalism. Nothing else.

Freedom skies| talk  10:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk Page vandalism

Kennethtennyson, for some reason, just goes on and writes "This is disputed and that is." His arguments are severely flawed but his consistent vandalism in Mallayuddha and Foreign influence on Chinese martial arts talk pages will take it's toll. The damage is done when the GA nominations are foiled because "the discussion on this talk page lets think otherwise." His persistent vandalism produces results and his objective of hurting the credibility of the articles is well achieved when people fail to realize that he yet has to actually write something in the article and his actions are just talk page vandalism and mindless revert backup. Freedom skies| talk 

He should stop.--D-Boy 08:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Kenny won't stop. Kenny has yet to write anything in an actual article related to what he talks about. He just likes to vandalize talk pages to injure the credibility though. Freedom skies| talk  14:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

--- That mural that you keep on quoting was painted relatively recently in the last 2 or 3 centuries. If i remember correclty, it fjust shows dark skinned and light skinned monks sparring. The dark skinned monks could be african, indian, dark chinese, southeast asian... etc. quit quoting websites. Kennethtennyson 14:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

We have the word of the founding father of the of the Shorinji Kempo system , for one, that says otherwise.

More citations will be provided when you request for them, Kenny.

Freedom skies| talk  10:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] here's the mural

>[1],[2],[3],[4] [5] Just because one religious group that is centered around martial arts (and if i remember correctly, listed in japan as a religion) has ideas about a CHINESE painting doesn't mean you should spout out their beliefs as truths. If you had done your research, it would occur to you that the painting was done in the late 19th-early 20th century and was done by folk artists in china. If i remember correctly, it depicts a practice by a bunch of monks. The dark skinned monks most likely are dark skinned chinese but can be indian, southeast asian, black, etc. you can't state what a religious japanese organization believes in relationship to a CHINESE painting. Why don't we get the opinions of what Irish Catholics priests feel about what paintings from middle eastern art are about while we are at it? Kennethtennyson 06:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, now that i'm reading your sources more, we should just remove the entire statement. R. Codling (whoever he is) does not state that the murals are of Indian monks sparring at all. He calls the murals "the arahan practice". If you go to the organization's international site, they make no mention of the murals as the founding influence. The only group that makes that statement is the lone website UWE organization in britain, which i believe is something that they wrote on their website.

the international organization doesn't even mention the murals as an important influence in the founding of the organization[6]

Kennethtennyson 06:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Not quite:-

Here:-

Since his first visit to the Shaolin Temple, Doshin So had been impressed with the wall paintings which depicted Indian and Chinese monks training and enjoying themselves together. This method of training together stood in contrast to his own training, and he developed the idea that training should be a collaboration between partner, for the purpose of mutual progress. In Japanese this concept is expressed as "otagai renshu" (training for each other) or "jita kyoraku" (enjoying things with other people). [7]

And did you read Page 157 of "Zen Arts: An Anthropological Study of the Culture of Aesthetics Form in Japan By Rupert A. Cox, Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland" ?

Did'nt think so.

"Karate the Japanese Way By Mark Adrian Groenewold" notes the Indian symbolism in Shorinji Kempo and "Karate-dō kyōhan: the master text By Gichin Funakoshi" has an interesting intro linking Shorinji Kempo to Daruma's tenure. You should have requested for additional references, Kenny; deleting sourced material repeatedly just because you're not familiar with martial arts related topics amounts to vandalism.

Again. This is related to martial arts, Kenny. Are you sure you're at home with this ?

Freedom skies| talk  08:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

--- like i said before, the only website that you have which states it is the UWE website and not the international website which you keep on quoting. the international organization does not even talk about that painting as a major defining moment in their history on their website so quit misquoting people. the citations that you list do not talk about that mural painting stating that those dark skinned monks are indian. Regardless of whatever random sources that you state, neither the Shaolin temple or even the art community labels or even talks about those monks as indian in the painting. The painting is of a bunch of monks demonstrating kung fu and was painted in the late 19th-early 20th century. Kennethtennyson 19:07, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

ike i said before, the only website that you have which states it is the UWE website

Did you see Page 157 of "Zen Arts: An Anthropological Study of the Culture of Aesthetics Form in Japan By Rupert A. Cox, Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland"?

Did you request for additional sources?

Do your actions amount to anything other than talk page vandalism?

--

the international organization does not even talk about that painting as a major defining moment in their history on their website so quit misquoting people.

The international organization states:-

Kaiso used the historical Buddha's teaching of building the self and Boddhidharma's (the founder of Zen's) teaching of indestructible and indomitable spirit to make the foundation of Kongo Zen, and he located Shorinji Kempo within Kongo Zen as its primary discipline.

[8]

--

the citations that you list do not talk about that mural painting stating that those dark skinned monks are indian.

Yes they do. You're simply attempting to lie here.

Again, this is related to martial arts Kenny, something you don't know all that much about.

Freedom skies| talk  03:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

-- ummm... you just quoted the international organization as stating that buddhism was an important part of this religious organization. What does that have to do with your statement about the painting? As i stated before, the only quote that you have is from the website in britain of an organization that follows the religion. One of your sources, R. Codling (whoever he is) does not state that the murals are of Indian monks sparring at all. He calls the murals "the arahan practice". Regardless of whether the religious organizations believe that the murals are of indian monks, the murals are not labeled as such by anyone else, especially not by the people who own the mural. Kennethtennyson 04:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

ummm... you just quoted the international organization as stating that buddhism was an important part of this religious organization.

Religious organization? Your knowledge about martial arts can be gauged by this, Kenny. Shorinji Kempo is a martial art, not a religious organization.

Let me refresh your memory a bit. The official website that credits Daruma is only mentioned in the talk page not the article. This was originally mentioned by you, not me. I merely demonstrated the official stand on the influence of Daruma, something you have attempted to vandalize incessantly.

What does that have to do with your statement about the painting?

Read the cited sources and come talk to me, Kenny.

See Page 157 of "Zen Arts: An Anthropological Study of the Culture of Aesthetics Form in Japan By Rupert A. Cox, Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland"

You know my policy on getting more citations on request, Kenny.

As i stated before, the only quote that you have is from the website in britain of an organization that follows the religion.

Revert mindlessly once more and I'll have you reported, Kenny. You like to vandalize this article and yet you blurt about Shorinji Kempo as a religion.

I provided additional ones ("Karate the Japanese Way By Mark Adrian Groenewold" notes the Indian symbolism in Shorinji Kempo and "Karate-dō kyōhan: the master text By Gichin Funakoshi" has an interesting intro linking Shorinji Kempo to Daruma's tenure) before you mindlessly blurted "As i stated before, the only quote that you have is from the website in britain of an organization that follows the religion."

One of your sources, R. Codling (whoever he is) does not state that the murals are of Indian monks sparring at all. He calls the murals "the arahan practice".

You're incorrect as usual Kenny. Read page 157 of the book. It highlights your incompetence.

Freedom skies| talk  04:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] need to reach a compromise or else eventual arbitration

I placed the prior talk page back here as we have not finished discussing this... look we need to reach a compromise here or else we will end up having this arbitrated, which will take forever. The issue is that you are misquoting various sources or giving a onesided view of sources. 1) The source does not state that Dhanur veda is the origin of indian martial arts. It just states that some practitioners in kalaripayattu believe that it is. I've amended it to state that the earliest reference is Dhanur veda. 2) I'll let you keep your statement on Doshin So even though only one source states that - the source from the UWE website. But you need to make a concession stating that it is their belief and that this is not listed anywhere else at the Shaolin temple.Kennethtennyson 22:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


look we need to reach a compromise here or else we will end up having this arbitrated, which will take forever.

The evidence of your alleged knowledge about martial arts related topics is well covered for the arbitration, Kenny.

The issue is that you are misquoting various sources or giving a onesided view of sources.

Again, not quite.

The one line reads "Doshin So mentions the Shaolin murals of Indian and Chinese monks sparring together for spirtual edification as his main inspiration for the creation of Shorinji Kempo" and is well supported. Doshin So's inspiration and Indian symbolism in Shorinji Kempo (an art that you called a religion based on tasteless ignorance) is well cited.

I will, even despite your mindless reverting and tasteless contradictions on this talk page, provide you with more references on request.

The arbitrators would like to know why you did not ask for additional sources?

Was it because you feared that additional sources would harm your agenda and strengthen the article?

Was it because you have yet to read even the cited sources before you reverted, came in here and started the repeated "even though only one source states that - the source from the UWE website" lie?

I've amended it to state that the earliest reference is Dhanur veda.

Trying to make the Indian arts look recent are we?

The Rigveda is mentioned and yet you persist to this vandalism, Kenny.

The arbitrators would like to know why you date this to the Dhanurveda when the Rigveda existed?

Vandalism? Lack of knowledge? Malicious intent?

I'll let you keep your statement on Doshin So even though only one source states that

Lies.

Do you read the cited sources? NO

Will the arbitrators take your lying and not reading sources into account? The answer is an emphatic Yes.

But you need to make a concession stating that it is their belief and that this is not listed anywhere else at the Shaolin

Are you willing to bet Wikipedia access if it's "their"(Shorinji Kempo community's) belief alone ? The loser leaves wikipedia forever.

If the belief is shared by many others outside of the Shorinji Kempo community then would you stop reverting to it?

Did'nt think so.

The arbitrators would like to know why do you want to place content in the article that you're not willing back up yourself?

Freedom skies| talk  06:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Guys - I don't care whose right or wrong but both of your are eating up the talk pages like the world revolves around your quibble. Can you perhaps take it private and come up with a compromise. Most people take private discussions to their own respective talk pages.Peter Rehse 06:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no discussion. Kenny reverts due to reasons which are demonstrably incorrect and despite the continued demonstration of his lack of knowledge he refuses to stop. He does not even want additional sources and does not verify existing ones. He just wants the cited information, however well supported, to be reverted. Like I said earlier, talk page vandalism, nothing else. Freedom skies| talk  07:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To Anon user

I have removed your statement, In fact, it was widely believed that India was the first country to invent all martial arts before they were brought to China, Japan, Korea, and all other Far Eastern countries. That is strongly POV and historically incorrect[1]. Firstly, there were several countries in what we call India today in place during the time Indian martial arts started influencing combat styles in East and Southeast Asia[2]. Secondly, the martial arts in Southern India were influenced by martial arts from African[3], while the styles in Northern India were indlfluenced from Persia[4]. Thirdly, the martial arts were introduced by the Pallava and Chola[5] kingdoms of Southern India through trade routes going through Southeast Asia[6], Japan, and then to China[7]. Lastly, you must quote your sources before making big statements.

  1. ^ Benedict, Anderson (2003). Imagined Communites: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism. New York: Verso. 
  2. ^ Iyengar, P.T. Iyengar (2001). History of the Tamils. New Delhi: Asian Educational Services. 
  3. ^ Powe, Edward L. (2006). Hanuman's Warriors in Tamil Nadu & Southern Kerala. Madison: WIBMA. 
  4. ^ Nekoogar, Farzad (1996). Traditional Iranian Martial Arts (Varzesh-e Pahlavani). pahlvani.com: Menlo Park. Accessed: 2007-02-08
  5. ^ Sastri, K.A. Nilakanta [1937] (2000). The Cholas. Chennai: University of Madras. 
  6. ^ Sastri, K.A. Nilakanta (1932). A Tamil Merchant-guild in Sumatra. Chennai: University of Madras. 
  7. ^ Sankarnarayan, Dr. Kalpakam; Dr. Motohiro Yoritomi, Dr. Ichijo Ogaw (1998). Traditional Cultural Link between India and Japan )During A.D. 8th and 9th centuries. New Delhi: Somaiya Publications Pvt. Ltd.. 

Wiki Raja 01:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indian influence

Does there really need to be a part on the influence that Indian martial arts had on other styles? That should be put in the articles on those styles themselves.Morinae 09:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)