Talk:Independent Media Center

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How and why one earth has the characterization of Indymedia being focused around an agenda of anti-capitalism made its way into this entry? That is not within Indymedia's core mission or points of unity, and while there are certainly stories with anti-capitalist agendas and frameworks contributed to Indymedia, there are also stories that advocate very different positions and viewpoint.

The central organizing theme of Indymedia is citizen, grassroots, activist journalism. Under that umbrella there's a wide, wide diversity of political and ideological possible and evident in Indymedia work. Attempts at sweeping ideological characterizations is neither accurate nor NPOV acceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.168.232 (talk) 14:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Changes August 2007

The 3 disputes at the top should be moved down to the section marked "Attacks on Indymedia", marco.
I need a rest after this last lot of activity.

  • There's still work to be done on (IMHO) the overall structure, especially around the Org Structure section.
  • There's references still to be chased down and tidied up, should be obvious where.
  • External links should be trimmed
  • the article is still too long. I think the Attacks on Journalists and Server Seizures sections can be spun off into their own articles

Two useful links reflecting on IMC that I haven't had time to incorporate into the "Criticism" section:

Chaikney 19:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup and copyedit needed

This article is not compliant with Wikipedia content policies, as it based mostly on primary sources as well as containing substantial original research (as for example the comparison with Wikinews). Unless secondary sources are forthcoming, this article needs to be paired down to what can be attributed to reliable sources, in addition to the primary sources originating from this website. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I re-read the article, and I am quite concerned about the lack of sources and the lack of compliance. I am replacing the cleanup tags with {{noncompliant}}. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] POV consider themselves to be independent journalists

This has the definate tone of "they call themselves journalists". It is rather POV. Since freedom of the press is an inalienable right and one does not need a license to "practice journalism", that is, report what they see. It seems that some, YES some people want to consider those without a journalism degree as somehow not being qualified to report what they see with their own eyes. This line of thinking makes a degree a de facto license to do journalism. Being also open source, wikipedia should know this. 67.53.78.15 02:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias in the caption for the photo of the greek policeman

Does anyone else think that the caption for the photo of the Greek policeman "attacking" an indymedia protester is just ever so slightly biased?

Rmkf1982 Talk 14:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

So change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wachholder0 (talk • contribs)
Hi, I am the one who uploaded the picture from athens.indymedia to wikipedia and I also added the photo to the page and wrote the caption. Could you please specify exactly what it is that you find biased? I used the word "attack" as the officer is doing exactly that, holding the baton upside-down. For further information please refer to the image's description page and the athens.indymedia pages linked to from there. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 10:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi
"A Greek riot policeman attacking an Indymedia photographer. The policeman holds his service baton from the reverse end aiming to injure rather than to repel."
That's what I find biased - you're accusing a policeman of attacking someone with the aim to cause harm - that's a pretty serious charge to be making against someone who can't defend himself here. There is nothing to say what the circumstances were - the officer could have been acting to defend himself after being attacked himself, we don't know. The point is, making judgements like that against people is unnecessary - surely a more neutral caption would be better for an encyclopedia article - Wikipedia is not Indymedia after all.
Rmkf1982 Talk 22:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
For more information about the circumstances of the event, as I noted above, please take a look at the athens.indymedia article linked to from the image description page. Sure, it is in Greek, but there are many many photos. Here is a direct link: [1], and some more articles linked to from the main indymedia article: [2], [3].
The photo was taken at of the Courts of Athens, when (for the first time in Greek history) Police fired teargas inside the Courts complex that even reached the courtrooms against the parents and colleagues of circa 50 students that were arrested during a student demonstration on March 8 2007. Their trial started on March 12 (when the photos were taken), and ended two or three weeks ago, with all the students being acquitted. The story is pretty much this: the 50 students were all brought to trial together at a very small courtroom that could carry no more than about 100 people. The courtroom was therefore packed with the defendants and the policemen brought forth as accusing witnesses. The students' parents and colleagues were not allowed entry to the courtroom, to which they reacted trying to force their way in, to which the police reacted violently.
Concerning the specific photo. By Greek law, it is illegal for the police to use their batons upside down (the lower side, the handle is solid metal and can cause serious injury, while the upper side is layered with rubber). As you can see by the photo, and more clearly by a consecutive photo, the policeman is holding the baton upside down. The photos made it to the news of national TV networks, and major journalists made a big fuss about it.
Now, apart from all this, which is the context. I understand that what I originally wrote can be perceived as trying to read the officer's mind. But I cannot really imagine what else he could be trying to do, using the baton upside down. The law is very specific in prohibiting such use of batons for precisely that reason.
Anyway, and for the sake of synthesis, how do you think we could improve the caption?
--Michalis Famelis (talk) 09:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
This photo is quite well known in Greece and has been used in Greek newspapers and TV channels. All of them were reporting exactly what Michalis Famelis says above: the policeman is attacking and -as you can see- he is using his baton upside down (!). --Michkalas 10:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
OK - Well first of all, thank you for being civil about this, responding to my concerns in detail, and seeking compromise. Unfortunately, my experience has been that some people have vested interests in their photos or articles and can become quite agressive.
I must admit to not having followed the links to the other articles you referenced but having read the information you added above, it seems pretty clear that we're not looking at a case of bias at all.
In terms of improving the caption / article, my suggestion would be that what you have said above about Greek law prohibiting the use of the batons in this manner, and the background to the event, should go in the article, or should be referenced in some way - I know this is not an article about the specfic events that took place in Athens so maybe the full detailed account wouldn't be appropriate (crete a new article perhaps?). What you have said above basically answers any questions that I could see anyone having, if like me, they arrived at this article, looked at the caption, and thought "bias". With all the information to hand, it's clear that its not biased but is quite factual. It's perhaps the amount of information that's crammed into the caption that makes it look biased when in fact it may just be trying to do too much in a small space.
How about creating a new section (unless I'm missing one that's already there) dealing with the events in Athens - maybe a paragraph describing what you wrote above, including the information about Greek law - obviously with a reference so that people know it's verifiable. Then put the photo within the new section, with a shorter caption. That way, all the information is contained in the article, clearly described, and people can place the image in the context of the events that took place, and as a result can reach the same conclusion you did i.e. that the officer was at best wantonly breaking Greek law, or at worst, aiming to severely hurt as you say. The new section might be quite topical at the moment as well if the trial has just ended a few weeks ago.
What do you think? Thanks. Rmkf1982 Talk 20:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no need for a new section and the wording wont change. The police man is trying to hit the photographer, as the photograph suggest. You are the one who has to provide proof that the police-man isn't trying to use force. I can't believe that there are arguments raised for it, the guy is clearly ready to use force. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.212.90 (talk) 18:57, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Imclogo.gif

Image:Imclogo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 08:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] addition of links

A user is attempting to add two links. One is to a personal website of an individual who has claimed he was "banned" from DC Indymedia, the other is the ideological website of a political organization. The addition of partisan links of this nature into the entry on the IMC is simply advertising for groups the individual is partisan to. Should all such organizations be added, it would become contentious. In these two particular cases, one is a political group (not "independent") and the other is owner/operated. In either case, they are not relevent and should not be added.In the Stacks 18:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that if there were very many such organisations, the selection of a few would be partisan and contentious, but as far as I am aware there are few organisations of this type notable enough to have Wikipedia articles. Your statement that "one is a political group" and "the other is owner/operated" is entirely irrelevant - the question is whether or not these are related articles. I think they are similar articles - primarily north american, vaguely lefty/anarchist media/publishing outlets. I think that the links provide a definite navigational aid to similar articles per Wikipedia criteria for See Also sections. As such, I am restoring the links until a reasonable argument is made to the contrary. Skomorokh incite 18:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
This is an entry on Indymedia. Not various websites. They are not IMCs, and scores of groups have actively participated with Indymedia Having an entry on Wikipedia is not a measure of "notability", especially when they are maintained by the interested parties. In the Stacks 18:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Neither site is "open-publishing". Also worth a mention.In the Stacks 18:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I don't see anything at all relevant in your comments. I did not claim that having an article on Wikipedia was a measure of notability. My point was that the topic of the article Indymedia and the topics of the articles CrimethInc. and Infoshop are related and thus consistent with the Wikipedia criteria for See Also sections. Skomorokh incite 19:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reversion of recent attempts at wikification

I just tried to integrate all the raw links into the references section, correct spellings, remove redundant categories and wikify section headings. User:In The Stacks has (possibly inadvertently) reverted my edits and I cannot restore them without violating 3RR. I'd appreciate if someone else would. Thanks, Skomorokh incite 19:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

That's my bad. I didn't mean to do that. On the same topic, the "Indymedia Journalist Homocide" title is ridiculous. Some guy used open-publishing to (allegedly) post some confession to an unrelated crime. That's like putting a section on an entry about telephones regarding a "Telephone Killer" because he told someone he'd done whatever. Is the 3RR thing done by robots? In the Stacks 19:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
No worries, not to sure how the 3RR thing works but I think you've reverted my See Also edits 3 times now so you could be in breach. I didn't make the "Indymedia journalist homicide" thing a section, it was already there - but according to WaPo it's legit. P.S. Could some third party please change the article back? Thanks Skomorokh incite 19:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ref tags

This article doesn't use reference footnotes correctly (or at all). There's a references section, but no reference tags are used! Thus, the reference section is empty. Timneu22 12:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

I am removing what I assume to be vandalism (though not in bad fiath) of the article, it is at least badly writen, in the wrong place, an opinion and unsubstantiated as far as I see. Although it might be intresting for people who are actually intrested in Indymedia, I am really just seeing what it is at the moment, the vandalism is here: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.184.221 (talk) 10:42, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dec 2007 cuts

Info preserved here so that it can be reliably sourced and re-integrated:

Subsequently, a townhall meeting was held at the University of Houston in response to the alleged police abuse where HPD Assistant Chief Martha Montalvo was present, alongside a police sergeant from Special Operations. Mayor Bill White and members of the Houston City Council were invited, but a staff member from the Office of Houston City Controller Annise Parker showed up since a member of HPD's Citizens Review Committee was present. One photographer who photographed the HPD Mounted Patrol jumping their horses on the sidewalk had two of his pictures used in the Houston Press (the anonymous photographer would photograph the anti-KKK rally in Tomball, TX on 6.11.05 that prompted his retirement from photojournalism). It is alleged that Scott Parkin was rowdy when he shoved police barricades (as seen by a photographer) right before relocating to Australia and later deported in September 2005.[citation needed]
On June 20, 2005, Ernesto Torres, a journalist with Indymedia Rosario and Free Air Community Radio, was assaulted [4] by members of the pro-government group Movimiento Barrios de Pie, while covering a march in opposition to the regime of the Argentinian president Néstor Kirchner.

Skomorokh incite 20:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The image caption

It's really not clear from the image itself who is being threatened. It appears to me that the cameraman could be some distance away: it's not radically wide-angle, and it contains his whole body. From the other pictures, the riot police were behind a wall and towered above the crowd. It's quite possible that the policeman was threatening someone closer to the wall below him. We really can't draw conclusions about where the baton was "aimed." I agree with Jossi's version. We should stick to verifiable claims. Cool Hand Luke 22:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bad sentence

"While some[attribution needed] criticize Indymedia for adopting a position hostile to the interests of capital, others believe that this is the purpose of the media."

This doesn't make any sense to me. What is meant by "media"? Indymedia? If so the sentence should read

"While some[attribution needed] criticize Indymedia for adopting a position hostile to the interests of capital, others believe that this is Indymedia's rightful purpose."

Also, can someone tell me where it was decreed that Wikipedia can't use Indymedia as a source? Is anyone else here a bit angry about that, or is my frustration just naive? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.105.197.53 (talk) 16:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)