Talk:Independence Day (United States)

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[edit] Who calls it America Day?

I have never heard of this. 100% of everyone I know (Americans anyway) call it "The Fourth" or "The Fourth of July."


[edit] I've moved this article because:

  • Fourth of July is a nickname, and is not country-specific. (It should remain as a simple redirect until we find another July 4 event worth disambiguating.)
  • The official name of the holiday is Independence Day
  • The parens strictly identify it as the American In. Day
  • It makes Independence Day a standard disambiguation page, which is a Good Thing.

It also gives me warm feelings to think of all those Independence Days lined up in a row. :-)

Somercet 04:48, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)

Disambiguated titles are icky. We use common names whenever possible, and Fourth of July is common. It's clearly different from July 4 since wikipedia date pages are standardized. --Jiang 20:04, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Well, it's now moot, as another Wikipedian has created another sort for the holidays. I think using the full country name rather than the two-letter country code is bulky, but... Somercet 05:57, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] colorful little anecdotes

Should this article really include nathan's hot dog eating contest? It's not really a part of any traditional celebrations of July fourth that I know of. My grandpa used to make us waffles on July Fourth, but that's not encyclopedic either. I propose we delete that colorful little anecdote but I wanted to get some concurrence first. MPS 19:00, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • No, this is a big deal in New York City and all over the media. This is a short article and should have more on different celebrations and events through history. I actually wrote a whole section before on 'July 4 in history' which was unfortunately lost due to computer problems.--Pharos 19:12, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Observed by Danes?

Is this vandalism, or something I'm not getting? There's nothing on Holidays in Denmark... Radagast 17:04, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Paid or Unpaid?

Is July 4th a paid or unpaid holiday? An anon changed it, and I decided to rv it. Which one is it? Thanks, Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 22:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

It is paid if you are a full-time employee. A.S. Williams 17:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Holidays

You may be interested in the WikiProject, WikiProject Holidays, a WikiProject that will focus on standardizing articles about Holidays. It has been around for quite some time, but I'm starting it up again, and would like to see some more members around the help out. Cheers. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:08, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Pardon my ignorance, but is Independence Day always celebrated on 4th July, or is it shifted to give people a long weekend? DJ Clayworth 15:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Both. The fireworks are always July 4, but if it's a weekend, many people get a long weekend anyway. Same for Christmas and New Years, in my American experience. Art LaPella 01:00, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
  • That is not true, and I've lived in the US my entire life. The holiday is always observed on July 4, no matter what day of the week it falls on. I have never seen it shifted. If it falls on Sunday, some people may get off Monday, July 5 in lieu of the holiday, but the holiday itself is not shifted. If it falls on Saturday, some people may get off Friday, July 3 (or possibly, but less commonly, Monday, July 6), but that is not as common as when it falls on a Sunday. If it falls on a Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday, then you don't get a long weekend, unless you use vacation time. If it falls on a Tuesday or Thursday, the closest weekend is still often referred to as 4th of July weekend, even though it includes a work day.

And, you are also wrong about Christmas and New Years. They are treated exactly the same as 4th of July, and are always Dec. 25 and Jan. 1, no matter what day of the week they fall on. And everything else that I said about 4th of July also applies to Christmas and New Years. The only difference is that since Christmas and New Years are a week apart, many people may take off the entire week in between the 2 holidays. And many people may take off at least a half day on Dec. 24 or Dec. 31 if they fall on weekdays, but are more likely to work a full day on July 3 when it falls on a weekday.

Also, some businesses (mostly factories) may close the entire week of 4th of July and the entire week between Christmas and New Years, rather than giving employees vacation time (they may give a small number of personal days in addition to those 2 weeks). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 04:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oldest Celebration?

I have been told the town of Bristol, Rhode Island has been celebrating this continually since 1785.

Sources: The White House, United States, Preserve America http://www.preserveamerica.gov/3-18-04PAcommunity-bristolRI.html

U.S. State Department: http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/holidays/july4/mccabe.htm

This debate has gone on for years and I'm sure we could continue it for years:

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/cgi-bin/page.cgi/es/in/pekin_1

From http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:WBT8FiWotv0J:vh80015.vh8.infi.net/localnews/2004/07/02in/B1-moss07020-8072.html+pekin+indiana+Bristol+Rhode+Island+fourth+of+july:

"If anyone can quell doubt it is MarjiAnn Souder, a local historian and, for that matter, a rider in a 1950 Plymouth in Monday's parade."

"Souder realizes the celebration in Bristol, R.I. — three weeks of events — is older. It first was held in 1785. She contends, however, that Bristol's own documents suggest gaps — years, particularly during wartimes, when parading apparently was put off. She has uncovered no such postponements here at home."

"Souder has scoured newspapers and documents, has talked with old-timers and has concluded her community's boast is believable."

"I'm convinced personally that we've never missed one since at least the 1830s," she said.

From http://www.fettes.com/history/ffcinc/Bristol%20Parade.htm:

"From the year 1785 to the present time, the anniversary of American Independence has, with few exceptions, been duly observed by military parades, orations, and public processions."

"Extensive research of public records yields no information for seven years (1827-1833), of names of Chief Marshals or anything else that would indicate there were official town-organized parades. But documentation reveals that, with only few exceptions since 1834, a parade has been part of the Bristol Fourth. Evidence exists to demonstrate that the several years since 1834 when there were no parades, were years when the country was experiencing hard economic times, or when a lack of funds may have been a reason to cancel the official parade. Another exception to the annual parade was in 1881. The elaborate celebration planned for the day was not held because of the shocking assassination of President Garfield. The resulting feeling of respect due the Chief Executive forced the town to cancel that year's festivities."

"Between 1815 and 1850, the Town Council did not always appoint an official committee for arrangements; sometimes, there were non-official celebrations and parades and at other times there were no celebrations. This may seem a contradiction to the statement about an annual observance since 1785; but, patriotic ceremonies with prayers of thanksgiving have always taken place."

Response
The person who is arguing against Bristol as the town with the oldest continuing Fourth of July celebration seems to be forgetting <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV">NPOV</a>. The link provided by the Indiana advocate:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:WBT8FiWotv0J:vh80015.vh8.infi.net/localnews/2004/07/02in/B1-moss07020-8072.html+pekin+indiana+Bristol+Rhode+Island+fourth+of+july:

The link above is clearly not NPOV. Neither are the quotations that are cited in the above link representing a NPOV. On the other hand, the U.S. State Department and the U.S. White House's Preserve America links can be reasonably accepted as NPOV in this particular matter, and they both recognize Bristol, Rhode Island instead. The person alleging that the U.S. government is mistaken in this matter needs to provide more substantive evidence.

Also, the fettes.com site provided by the advocate of Indiana, links to a small school in Scotland, which sent a band for the Bristol, Rhode Island Fourth of July parade one year in Bristol, Rhode Island's. Fettes is not a recognized authority on the history of the Fourth of July in the United States.

[edit] Modes of celebration

So is that vandalism or what? --Zakharov 01:49, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] United States article on featured candidate nominations list

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States

Cast your vote! The more responses, the more chances the article will improve and maybe pass the nomination. We might just make it pass in time for Fourth of July!--Ryz05 t 17:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why 4th of July

Why is it called the 4th of July, when the custom in the United States is month-day-year; I know it is occasionaly called "July 4th", but this is not the standard. Does anyone know why?

We do say "the [ordinal] of [month]" in American English although less frequently than "[month] [ordinal]". It's not a special usage just for Independence Day.--Kenji Yamada 06:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
True, but "[month], [ordinal]" is more common, except for the 4th of July it seems. - Matthew238 01:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
One would think that the more commonly used and uniquely Americian lingo would be used more commonly for the name America's most Important day and that some perticular reason caused 'the [ordinal] of [month]' to take presidance. 83.71.33.42 18:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
To say "July 4th" or "March 15th" would be appropriate for an ordinary day, where the date itself is not significant on its own. Compare "Fourth of July", or "Ides of March". The date is then sensed as poetic, or to be reflected upon. —RVJ 01:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I would of thought that it would be because at the time it was first use American English wasn't around so it was the same of British English which would be [ordinal] [month] [year]. Joeking16 13:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template colours

Is it just me or do the blue and white colours in the holidayinfo template box on the right really not work - especially the blue with black writing. I know it's all meant to be representative of the US flag but readibility must come first IMHO. I can't think of decent colours myself - anyone feel like attempting? --202.169.217.132 11:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with you. Edit: Just changed them, should be better now. Thursday Postal 15:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] implicit ones of democracy, liberty, freedom, and equality under the law.

This needs a source, and should be scarequoted. Jefferson would balk at the state current of "democracy" in the United States. Intangible 17:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

What kind of source are we talking about here? I thought every schoolkid knows that the US is all about freedom, democracy, and equality/the rule of law. I know that sounds like an appeal to common sense, but I really do want to know what would suffice as a source. A speech by Bush? a speech by other political leaders? a government website that says that July 4 celebrates certain american values on July 4. What say ye? MPS 14:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
PS HEre is a recent editorial that has a bunch of July 4 quotes in it. [1] Maybe we can use some of these to talk about the so-called "American Ideals" MPS 14:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More in "Other notable July 4 events"

Today, for the first time ever, NASA launched a shuttle into orbit on the 4th of July, something that has been all over the news all day. I'm wondering if the section should be ammended to include this, as it is rather notable, seing as how there aren't many launches anymore. Just a thought.--68.6.242.18 00:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

No. Not really a celebration of ID... maybe put it on July 4 MPS 14:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] As discussed before, this title should be changed.

Since Wikipedia is for naming pages what they are commonly referred to, this should be changed to The Fourth of July (U.S. Holiday). It may seem neater to refer to it as Independance Day (United States), but since articles are supposed to be named for their most common usage, the apt title would be: The Fourth of July (U.S. Holiday). Almost no one refers to it as Independance Day.

I propose a vote.

I support.

What are you talking about? The federal holiday on July 4 is designated as Independence Day by the federal government, and calendars say Independence Day.--75.28.163.95 02:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


I think we should call it The Fourth of July (Independence Day - United States). 9 out of 10 Americans that you talk to on the street are going to call it the Fourth of July. When I look up the term Independence Day in English, I am not really looking for Angola's date of independence. A.S. Williams 17:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Officially, it is known as Independence Day. Also, renaming the article the 4th of July would not be taking a global view. Regardless of how it is refered to colloquially in the United States, most people globally would just think of the day of the year on the Gregorian calendar when 4th of July is mentioned. - Tomos ANTIGUA Tomos 19:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I want to know why no one ever calls it 7/4...... --Tom (talk) 00:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Most references invalid

Removed invalid references. More need to be added. Used http://diberri.dyndns.org/wikipedia/templates/?type=isbn to ensure standardized references. Demantos 16:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Addition to BBQ tradition

In New England, salmon is traditional.

[edit] Added Americana

I added the snippet about Americana because i believe it allows a broader range of topics, rather than the fireworks, parades, etc.

[edit] July 4th Public Holiday

Could someone please tell a UK citizen (!) whether this public holiday when it falls on a weekday as now also extends into other days of them same week - into the following day (July 5th) for example? Peter Dixon

No, the official public holiday is only on July 4. July 3 and July 5 are regular work days. However, especially if July 4 falls on a Tuesday or Thursday, many people will take off an extra day to turn it into a 4 day weekend. Also, some people might take off the entire week.

If July 4 falls on a Sunday, then Monday, July 5 becomes a federal holiday. It is also a state holiday in most (but not all) states, and a paid holiday for most (but not all) private sector workers. If July 4 falls on a Saturday, then Friday, July 3 becomes a holiday for federal workers who work a Mon-Fri week. It is a state holiday in some states, and a paid holiday for some private sector workers, but that is not as common as Monday, July 5. Some states or private sector businesses close Monday, July 6 rather than Friday, July 3, but that is even less common.

Since the festivities are at night, in my personal opinion, Friday is the best day of the week for 4th of July to fall on. Saturday and Sunday are good (even better than Friday, in my opinion) if your job closes on Friday, July 3 or Monday, July 5, but are the worst days for it to fall on if your business does not close. Monday gets you a 3 day weekend, but then the day after is a work day. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday (especially Wednesday) are lousy since you do not get a long weekend, unless you have vacation time and are able to use it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 04:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Some private-sector businesses give their employees the long weekend as paid holiday time if Independence Day itself falls on a Tuesday or Thursday. Gov't employees usually don't get any extra holiday time, though. Schoop (talk) 15:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I have honestly never seen any private sector employer close on Monday, July 3 or Friday, July 5 if Independence Day falls on Tuesday or Thursday. At least where I live, you are lucky to get off even a single day for a holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 03:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, my private sector employer does. I work for a major insurance company, and all of our offices are closed on July 3 or July 5 if the 4th is on a Tuesday or Thursday, respectively. Wednesdays stink, though. Schoop (talk) 20:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I know several people who work for insurance companies, and NONE of them have off Monday, July 3 or Friday, July 5, and not even Friday, July 3 or Monday, July 5. Are you sure that it's actually a paid holiday? Maybe nearly everybody just takes the day off in those years. At least in my state, it is illegal for a business to give more holidays in one year than another (it's considered a form of discrimination), which would make it impossible to close on Monday, July 3 or Friday, July 5, unleess another holiday is sacrificed, or a moveable "floating" holiday is given. However, where I live, very few private employers close for the "minor" holidays, so most employers don't have a holiday that they can sacrifice in favor of Monday, July 3 or Friday, July 5. Also, certain groups might be offended if "their" holiday is the one that was sacrificed (for example, blacks might be offended if MLK Day is the holiday that is sacrificed that year). Another option is to require employees to use a vacation day on Monday, July 3 or Friday, July 5, but some might see that as being unfair if they're forced to use a vacation day on a day that they would have been willing to work, but are then unable to take a day off on a day that they actually need or want to take off. So the easiest solution is to just stay open on Monday, July 3 and Friday, July 5, treat them as regular work days, but let anyone willing to use a vacation day take the day off, perhaps relaxing usual rules about vacation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 00:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Insurance companies may be a special case. The service industry has extra incentive to stay open on days when people might need their services. Other private employers very often give two days for Independence Day if the timing works out. For example, my former employer provided nine paid holidays: New Year's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, the day after Thanksgiving, and Christmas Day, plus two more depending on where the "floating" days ended up -- usually one in July and one in December. Powers T 23:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Trust me, I get the day off as paid holiday time. The office is closed. There are some employees "on call" if necessary. We get a minimum of 8 holidays per year: New Years, Good Friday, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, the day after Thanksgiving, and Christmas. We get Friday or Monday off if Jan 1, July 4, or Dec 25 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, respectively. If any of those three days falls on a Tuesday or Thursday, we get the Monday or Friday off to create a 4-day weekend. Schoop (talk) 15:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe you get those days off, but I've honestly never seen anyone in any field get them off, so you should not say that they are common. At the very least, you should try to find a nationwide survey, and unless at least 51% of businesses close those days, you can't say that they are common. Another idea: maybe those days off are more common in certain geographic areas. Where I live, nobody has them off, but maybe they are commonly days off in areas that have a lower cost of living or are less lawsuit prone. The fact that you mention having Good Friday as a paid day off strongly suggests that you don't live in the same part of the US as me.
May I ask what state you are in? I'm in Michigan. That my company gives Good Friday as a holiday is somewhat uncommon. We don't get MLK day off, though. A lot of companies switched from recognizing Good Friday as a paid holiday to recognizing MLK day instead in the late 1980s. Mine did not. Getting the days around Independence Day is relatively common here for white-collar office jobs. Your comment about it being illegal for a business to give more holidays in one year than another in your state seems incredibly strange to me - If I'm a business, as long as I have a reasonably consistent policy, why shouldn't I be allowed to give my employees as much paid time off as I want? Schoop (talk) 17:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm in New York. Nobody has off for Good Friday here, except for the stock market and schools. MLK Day is somewhat common, but not as common as the "major" holidays. I've honestly never seen any businesses in my area, in any field, close on any day adjacent to July 4, other than July 4 itself. About it being illegal to give more days off in some years than others: while I do agree with you, the reality is that, unfortunately, if you have, for example, a black employee who starts working during a year that 4th of July falls on, for example, Friday, he will sue for discrimination, saying that a white employee who worked the previous year, where 4th of July fell on Thursday, got an extra holiday that he didn't get off, and will say that he was discriminated against for being black. I agree that it's ridiculous, and it will be a completely frivolous lawsuit, but it is something that companies must protect themselves again. A somewhat double standard is that companies are allowed to "cheat" their employees out of a holiday when July 4 (or another holiday) falls on Saturday or Sunday. The argument there is that they'll say that they aren't requiring you to work on July 4, and that you are "professionals" and are not entitled to paid holidays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.64.197 (talk) 04:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "In that streetlamp era" / Fireworks

Not "that pre-streetlamp era"? 86.143.48.55 (talk) 13:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Really Useful: The Origins of Everyday Things By Joel Levy mentions fireworks in Colonial America. Not a primary source, but useful. Also see Fireworks in Elizabethan times. A discussion of the history of fireworks in America proper belongs on some other page, and certainly, fireworks were more expensive then, and candles cheaper, but fireworks were definitely used in Colonial and Revolutionary America. Somercet (talk) 14:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)