Talk:Inclusive Democracy

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[edit] Temp page

I uploaded a modified version of the Inclusive Democracy entry. This has nothing to do with the original one which was based on the corresponding Routledge entry and caused the copy vio. User: Narap43, 10:40 (UTC), 27 December 2005

---SOMEBODY VANDALIZED THE PAGE JUST BEFORE WITH A PORNIGRAPHIC PICTURE. SHOULDN'T SOMEONE SEARCH WHO DID IT?--TheVel 13:23, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Comment We demand that wiki administrators trace the IP so we can find out who vandalized the page with pornography!User:john sargis 8:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Question for the administrators

It is well known that every entry here (or anywhere in Wikipedia for that matter) leaves its trace in the History page. Why the pornographic entry, which stayed here for over an hour, left no trace at all in the history page? But, even if this vandalising entry somehow did not leave any trace in the History page surely it left its trace in your monitors and therefore you know the IP of the vandaliser. OK?

[edit] IS ANY ADMINISTRATOR LISTENING?

I watched the Administrators' behaviour with respect to the Inclusive Democracy (ID) entry and I could only characterise it as a perfect example of authoritarianism mixed with ignorance.

First, you discovered possible copyright violation in the ID entry with respect to the corresponding entry in the Inclusive Democracy.org webpage and the relevant Routledge Encyclopedia entry. Then, the webmaster of the ID webpage wrote to you and explained that there was no such violation as he has the copyrights for all the contents of his webpage. Furthermore, he created a new temp. page on ID which has little relation to the old one and consequently to the one in Routledge. You ignored him. Instead a supposed 'expert' in copyrights violations, under the name karmafist yesterday deleted the temp page WITH NO EXPLANATION AT ALL. When today the webmaster posted the same page, another 'expert' under the name Ulayiti deleted the page again, OFFERING ALSO NO EXPLANATION AT ALL.

Could you stop behaving in such an arbitrary way and explain what is wrong with the temp. page? The fact that it contains parts of the old entry, for anyone with an elementary knowledge of copyrights legislation, is not a violation, particularly if the author of both entries is one and the same: Takis Fotopoulos! Had you checked for instance the entries on Participatory Economics by Michael Albert in his own webpage and elsewhere against the WP entry on Participatory Economics you would have found dozens of cases of similar 'violations'.

Alternatively, if you have no explanation for your arbitrary actions then you have to restore the temp. page as the new ID entry--unless of course, as one may suspect, the reasons for your action have much more to do with the political content of ID which is clearly against the political affiliations of most administrators--particularly those deleting the temp.page-- (rather than with any copyright violations!

The words 'Wikipedia' and 'copyright' are not compatible with each other. In other words, nothing on Wikipedia is copyrighted. If you upload something on Wikipedia, you release it under the GFDL licence, which means that anyone can do pretty much whatever they want with it. If you want to upload content that is currently copyrighted, you must show that you are in fact the copyright holder, and relinquish all rights to the content itself. - ulayiti (talk) 20:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Version

I have prepared a new version of the Inclusive Democracy entry for use exlusively for Wikipedia purposes. Does this resolve any possible copyright problems?? User:Narap43, 15:30, 29 December (UTC)

I've removed the protection from the article, so you're free to put that version up now. - ulayiti (talk) 14:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
The new version also appears to be a copyvio, so I have reverted and reinstated protection. [[Sam Korn]] 16:01, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
The Inclusive Democracy entry was not deleted for vanity reasons as this (rightwinger) Jbamb implies but for a minor copyvio reason, which has by now been corrected and there is a new ID entry. The IJID entry also should not have been deleted and several administrators have now recognised this error as the relevant debate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Democracy_%26_Nature_%282nd_nomination%29 shows. User:john sargis12:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Authoritarianism

Can you be more specific on why the new version also appears to be a copyvio because alternatively you simply abuse your power? A mMember of the International Network for Inclusive Democracy, 16:35, 31 Dec. 2005

The new version WAS NOT a copyvio. Sam Corn's protection is unacceptable. --TheVel 17:02, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
1. Don't write in bold, it's impolite. 2. It is not unacceptable to remove a page that is a) unsuitable for an encyclopedia and b) (far more importantly) an apparent violation of copyright. A Google search for random pieces of text still throws up results at inclusivedemocracy.com, and, to my knowledge, there has been no formal release of the text under the GFDL, which is mandatory for text on Wikipedia. [[Sam Korn]] 17:36, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
The fact that the new version of ID contains approximately the same sections as the old one is not a proof of copyvio (otherwise most entries on various scientific or theoretical topics would be copyvios!). To prove a copyvio you have to show that the entry as a whole, or at least entire sections of it, are copyvios from another copyright-protected page. In fact our webmaster explicitly stated that this is a version which is different from the one published in Routledge Encyclopedia (the cause of the previous copyvio) and he specifically adopted for the new version the terms of GNU Free Documentation License. User:john sargis 12:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Fine. OK. My text is We may distinguish various forms of political power-sharing in History, which, schematically, may be classified as either democratic or oligarchic. In the former, political power is shared equally among all those with full citizen rights (typical example the Athenian ecclesia), whereas in the latter political power is concentrated, in various degrees, at the hands of miscellaneous elites. Now see [1] and [2] To prove a copyvio (from WP's POV) you need some reasonable idea that the text uses a copyrighted source. Until there is some official release from the owners of the copyright, this article remains a copyright violation. If and when that comes, I shall immediately list on AfD as this article is completely unverified and biased. Happy new year. [[Sam Korn]] 18:00, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


The version I uploaded is a summary page of the main aspects of Inclusive Democracy. As such, it is reasonable that some phrases will be a repetition of main phrases from our website. The specific you mention, as well as some other parts of the text, are from the onine book "The Multidimensional Crisis & Inclusive Democracy", for which the rights are reserved by the International Journal of Inclusive Democracy (please refer to [3]). As the webmaster of this Journal, I have released the specific parts used in the Inclusive Democracy entry for Wikipedia purposes. To prove this, I wrote some days ago a relevant e-mail to the Wikimedia foundation from the Journal's address. In conclusion, please indicate a way to proceed with this since a GFDL on the whole book is, as you understand, not an option. User: Narap43, 18:57, 31 December 2005, (UTC)

[edit] ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE EDITORIAL BOARD OF D&N AND IJID

1. We, the members of the Editorial Board of Democracy & Nature (D&N) and its present successor The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy (IJID) have, over the last few days, witnessed a concerted attack against the journal by an alliance of sockpuppets (who have been created by a disgruntled ex-member of the journal with a vendetta against us) and some administrators who are either apolitical (not in the sense of party politics but in the sense of a fundamental lack of understanding of politics in the broader sense) or who do not hide their hostility towards the Inclusive Democracy political agenda. This ‘unholy’ alliance has attempted to delete all Inclusive Democracy entries in Wikipedia and in some cases it has already succeeded in doing this.

2. The reasons for which Wikipedia have attempted to substantiate their AfDs range from silly WP copyright violations (from our own webpages!-- which, if applied to all WP entries, would lead to most of them being eclipsed) to arbitrary ‘assessments’ of the notability and significance of our entries. Such ‘assessments’ are given either by administrators who do not have any expertise on the topics they are assessing, or by others following their own political agenda which is at the opposite end of the political spectrum to the Inclusive Democracy project.

3. We find it humiliating, to say the least, to be subjected to this pseudo-democratic process which defames not only our journals, which have been honoured to have had as contributors and members of their Editorial Boards well-known writers such as Steven Best, Murray Bookchin, Pierre Bourdieu, Cornelius Castoriadis, Noam Chomsky, Takis Fotopoulos, Andre Gunder Frank, Serge Latouche, Harold Pinter-- and many other equally important writers who do not have similar WP entries—but also our subscribers who have, in the past, included such notable institutions as Michigan State University, University of Maryland, University of Wisconsin, London School of Economics, University of Massachusetts, Stanford University, Simon Fraser University, Hamburg Library, University of New South Wales, University of Canterbury, Kent; Universidade de Coimbra, Portugal; Harvard College Library,Iinternational Institute of Social History, Amsterdam; Formazione ii Biblioteca, Palermo; Bath University and many others. Furthermore, we find this process equally humiliating to the authors of hundreds of references and citations to D&N and IJID in books, journals, magazines, and electronic media.

4. Finally, we find appaling the fact that, through Wikipedia’s so-called assessment process, self-anointed administrators, with no guarantee at all of any expertise in the fields they assess, use their wide-ranging powers to decide which pieces of knowledge and information are appropriate enough to be included in Wikipedia. These powers include discounting the votes of registered users who are not long-established--even if their expertise is much more relevant to the topics assessed than that of the administrators, as the irrelevant comments of these administrators frequently show. These built-in fatal errors in assessment—only some of which have been mentioned--could go a long way in explaining the growing literature in the world press on the low standard of knowledge and information provided by Wikipedia.

5. When we created the WP Inclusive Democracy entries, we were functioning as bona fide new users thinking that we were helping the development of a free and supposedly democratic encyclopaedia that could function as an alternative source of information to the established encyclopaedias. We were utterly disappointed when we discovered the irresponsible and completely unreliable way in which knowledge on important matters is supposedly created by this supposedly alternative encyclopaedia, which clearly will never reach the standards of the established encyclopaedias because of the fatal structural flaws mentioned. Therefore, the sooner it is disqualified as an authoritative source of knowledge, the better.

6. In light of the above we have decided the following:

a) to withdraw with immediate effect ALL the Inclusive Democracy entries from Wikipedia, including those that have been challenged only on account of trivial Wikipedia copyright violations, as well as those like the entry on the founder of Inclusive Democracy, Takis Fotopoulos, which has not been challenged by anyone during this whole process. b) to demand the banning of any new entry on the following topics: Inclusive Democracy, Democracy & Nature, The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy, The International Network for Inclusive Democracy and Takis Fotopoulos. We reserve all our legal rights in case any future entries on these topics are created in Wikipedia without our explicit and written permission.

The Editorial Committee of The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy Narap43, 17:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] ADDENDUM

Since yesterday’s announcement some of the main points we made in it have already been confirmed! Thanks to the technical work of some administrators who showed that they function without any political agendas against us but instead attempted to find out the truth, Paul Cardan (the disgruntled ex-member of the journal with a vendetta against us who was the main cause of the first AfD against Democracy & Nature through his repeated vandalising attacks against it) and User:DisposableAccount (who proposed the deletion of the successor journal to D&N and with the support of two (2) administrators managed to have it deleted), Llbb and Bbll (who persuaded other administrators to keep the page deleted) are all the same editor! [4]

Meanwhile, other administrators still doubt whether the present announcement is a genuine Editorial Board announcement. Here is the proof:

http://www.inclusivedemocracy.org/journal/newsletter/Wikipedia.htm

The Editorial Committee of The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy

11:19 (UTC) January 2, 2006 User:Narap43

[edit] GFDL, copvio and withdrawing content

Either the disputed content was or was not released under the GFDL. If it was, then it cannot be taken back. If not, then the above announcement is false when it claims the copyvio objection was groundless. Either way, the above announcement lacks credibility. --- Charles Stewart 18:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Considering nomination for deletion.

I am considering nominating this page for deletion under Articles for Deletion in accordance with Wikipedia:Notability:

...a topic is notable if it has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, reliable published works, whose sources are independent of the subject itself. (emphasis added)

Please bolster the article's case for notability, if possible.

In the alternative, please develop the article with more content. Right now it is obviously just a submarine advertisement for a political philosophy, with only enough text so that it can call itself an article and get the reader to use the external links. I have to warn you that without a solid case for notability, the article will continue to be in danger of deletion. However, as a matter of personal choice, I will not personally initiate the deletion process as long as someone puts some actual content in.

Drake Dun 10:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Adding new material.

I added a lot of new material, first, to give more info on the aspects of the Inclusive Democracy project and, second, to establish the notability of the article. Also, many links to online and printed resources are given.

User:narap43 9:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)