Talk:Incest in popular culture

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This article was nominated for deletion on 26 July 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Contents 1 Restructuring 2 List... 3 Proposed merge 4 Additional Novel, Robots of Dawn 5 Another book...

[edit] Restructuring

I think the article needs to be restructured. Aside from the very long lead paragraph, the division into sub-headers seems un-intuitive. I was looking for a place to add an entry for brother-sister incest in a novel (mentioned in Page by Tamora Pierce) and couldn't find anywhere in the current division where it wouldn't be out of place. I'd have started restructuring immediately, but I'm not sure what the best organization would be: by types of incest (consensual/rape, adult/child etc.), by family relationships or by format (music, television, books etc.), and in what order. So, I'm bringing it up for discussion. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 17:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe that "by format" is the best form of division but you do raise an interesting point. What does everyone else think? Perhaps, even, the page could discuss incest in popular culture and then briefly discuss the impact and use of incest in each format, then perhaps link to individual pages, such as Incest in Film, Incest in Literature, Incest in Theatrical works etc. WookMuff 22:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's enough material to split the article into forks by format. The problem is, "incest" is a very loaded word that can mean a lot of different things. Should incest between step-family be separated from incest between blood relations because the incest taboo is primarily related to inbreeding? Should it be separated by issues of consent, because in some contexts "incest" has become synonimous with sexual abuse/molestation? Molestation in fiction is very different from consensual incest in fiction, the latter of which is arguably more controversial. Also, what about whether or not there's knowledge of the family relationships, as in the House episode Fools for Love?

How do we address all these different issues? Maybe the list should be recreated as a table, where each issue is addressed on a case-by-case basis, without making the article seem messy and cluttered. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 09:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

This article was cut and pasted from the incest article so, yes, it's not well structured. Happy for anyone to volunteer. "My bits" are the stuff related to literature/films. Tony 23:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)Tony

[edit] List...

Ok, I know wikipedia is not a list or collection of lists, but this article is incredibly random, bouncing around like a superball. I think that just changing it to a list of examples of incest in each category would improve the article terribly. WookMuff 21:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

See WP:LISTS for Wikipedia's policy of lists. I think a midway format between list and paragraph would be best, since the subject needs so much explanation. Also, the division into sub-headers here needs to be overhauled. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 10:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge

I proposed adding Incest between twins to this, it seems to be a similar list and probably doesn't deserve its own page. The way, the truth, and the light 01:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not think a merge is appropriate, for the reasons laid out below:

1. The article Incest between twins is about a subclass of sibling incest, whereas this article is about incest in pop culture generally.
2. The article Incest between twins includes information that does not fit into "pop culture". For instance, Balinese culture (real culture, not pop culture), pornography, and also folk culture (I would dispute the classification of The Ring of the Nibelung as a part of popular culture).
3. Incest between twins is a viable topic that is the subject of multiple academic sources (although I admit it could use expansion).
4. The article Incest between twins survived an AfD debate, whereas this article may become subject to deletion as an "in popular culture" list. -- Black Falcon ^(Talk) 01:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose per Black Falcon. Although the lists appear similar now, incest between twins is a sufficiently distinct topic that has the potential to be expanded, and it already contains information not suitable here. –Pomte 06:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Let me respond. The article Incest between twins consists mostly of a list that's calles 'Examples in popular culture' and references this article. The statement about Balinese culture, as well as any other scientific information that might be added, belong in the article Incest. There is no separate article 'Sibling incest', either. The way, the truth, and the light 15:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

That the "Examples in popular culture" section currently dominates the Incest between twins article is a sign that the article needs to be expanded with more sourced analsysis. Also, though I dislike the title "Examples in popular culture", I have a hard time thinking of a better one ... I'd go with "in fiction", but that doesn't cover all of the examples noted or relevant. Moreover, a dual merge (to here and to incest) still does not address my 3rd and 4th points. "Incest between twins" is a distinct topic with the (as yet unrealised) capacity for expansion, as evidenced by the inclusion of numerous secondary scholarly sources, which this article (though it's a valid topic) currently lacks. I have listed below other academic sources that are either fully dedicated to or discuss the subject:

1. Bixler (1983), "Homosexual Twin Incest Avoidance", Journal of Sex Research
2. Cohen (2005), "I la Galigo", Asian Theatre Jounral
3. Devereux (1941), "Mohave Beliefs concerning Twins", American Anthropologist
4. Finney (1983), "Self-Reflexive Siblings: Incest as Narcissism in Tieck, Wagner, and Thomas Mann", The German Quarterly
5. Glenn (1966), "Opposite-Sex Twins", Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association
6. Johnson (1986), "The Labyrinth of Incest in Nabokov's Ada", Comparative Literature
7. Myers (1982), "Homosexuality, sexual dysfunction, and incest in male identical twins", Canadian Journal of Psychiatry
8. Shorr (1965), "Meetings of the New York Psychoanalytic Society", Psychoanalytic Quarterly

I am currently tied up with various real-life obligations, but I will use these and other sources which I haven't listed to expand the article when I can. -- Black Falcon ^(Talk) 18:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I will take the lack of response four several days as consent to remove the merge tags. There is sufficient scholarly interest on the subject from an anthropological, biological, cultural, and sociological perspective to merit a separate article and, as I wrote above, I will expand the article with scholarly sources soon. -- Black Falcon ^(Talk) 23:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additional Novel, Robots of Dawn

I read this book more than 15 years ago, and my memory is a little hazy. I'll leave it someone who knows the book better to fill in the details on the main article. In Isaac Asimov's The Robots of Dawn, it is revealed that Humans living on Aurora have eliminated all genetic conditions and risks including the ones associated with incest. They routinely engage in father-daughter sexual relationships. It is expected to happen and Aurorans considered it normal and healthy. If I recall, it is traditional for the daughter initiate such relationships. One of the main Auroran characters, Han Fastolfe, is a bit odd in many ways and denied his daughter's advances; possibly as a physiological experiment out of pure curiosity. This is one of his many oddities that cause his daughter to be bitter. --75.109.248.53 03:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another book...

Flowers in the Attic and indeed the entire Dollanganger Virginia Andrews series depicts incest (the mother and father of the children were half brother and sister, the brother and sister Cathy and chris also develop an incestous relationship and in the prequel Garden of Shadows, Malcolm Foxworth is obsessed with the memory of his dead mother Corinne even saying her name during the rape of his own wife and the rape of his step mother) perhaps someone with more experience editing pages can add this in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.212.98 (talk) 21:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)