Talk:In My Life

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[edit] Tears of a Clown

The article states that the melody of "In My Life" was inspired by The Miracles' song "The Tears of a Clown." Problem is that the latter song was released two years after "In My Life" was released. Unless a source can be cited which can prove to the contrary of what a logical timeline would dicate then that portion of the article should be removed.

In his(and Barry Miles') book, 'Many Years From Now', McCartney says: 'I said, "Well, you haven't got a tune, let me just go and work on it". And I went down to the half-landing, where John had a mellotron, and I sat there and put together a tune based in my mind on Smokey Robinson and the Miracles. Songs like 'You've really got a hold on me' and 'Tears of a clown' had really been a big influence.'

From this you see that McCartney doesn't necessarily say these two songs SPECIFICALLY influenced him to come up with music for 'In My Life'; he just names a couple of The Miracles' songs of the 60s that were of general inspiration to him and the Beatles.

I don't know 'Tears of a clown', but 'You've really got a hold on me', which The Beatles did cover on 'With the Beatles' in 1963, does sound like something that could inspire a chap to come up with 'In My Life'. 84.208.203.173 16:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

McCartney erroneously claims that the two songs had been a big influence up until 1965, but he does NOT say that these two songs were the ones that specifically inspired him to write 'In My Life'. Now I hope I got it quite right... 84.208.203.173 16:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Musical notes

the bridge is listed ending with "IV iv I" - not sure if someone figured the music out or if its' taken from some official source, but the sound doesn't appear to use the IV at this point, just going straight to the minor iv. Also, just a question if anyone knows as to what actual chord V2-of-IV would be for this particular key (a maj). Thanks. TheHYPO 22:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

In the main article there is a claim that this song doesn't have a middle eight, but in the musical notes section a 'bridge' is referred to. Isn't a middle eight and a bridge basically the same? (I know The Beatles used to refer to everything as middle eights, even if it consisted of four, eight, twelwe or sixteen bars) Any ideas? 192.153.194.200 00:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, the bridge-section referred to, is where George Martin plays his piano-solo. Considering this section musically(the chords, I mean) is the same as the verse(without the extended chorus that John erroneously referred to as the middle-eight), I don't think John gave Paul credit for it, as it says in the article. If he did, it would mean that he DID credit Paul with all the music of this song, and we all know(?)that wasn't the case.

What John DID give Paul credit for was the harmony and the music to the 'middle-eight'(extended chorus): "All these places have their moments...(...)...in my life I've loved them all".192.153.194.200 (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Is the analysis even really neccessary here? The song is not notable for having anything interesting harmonically or melodically more than any other beatles song. If somebody wants to provide an external link to a chord sheet or something similar, feel free, but showing the chord structure and providing a musical analysis is not at all necessary nor particularly appropriate for an encyclopedic article. Glassbreaker5791 (talk) 00:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lyric?

The first line of the song - many sites list "There are places I'll remember", but the track sounds like it's just "I remember". Is there an official source on what the actual lyric is (or other recordings to confirm one or the other?) TheHYPO 22:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kurt Cobain's Funeral?

Somebody added that 'In My Life' was played at Kurt Cobain's funeral, which I've cited. I've read a few books about Kurt Cobain and Nirvana that were written posthumously, and I've never come across this information. It may very well be true, but I'd be interested in seeing a source. --Strawberry Pudding Wings

The fact is in Everett True's Nirvana biography, which I've just cited. - Cakewalking 20:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Written with 'input from McCartney'?

I'm not sure about this. I've heard Paul say he wrote most of it, and Lennon helped. Also, Lennon was notorious for trying to steal credit for Paul's writing.

There was significant disagreement between Lennon and McCartney over this song. Lennon says it is his song, with help from McCartney. McCartney says he wrote the music because Lennon had the lyrics but no music. Musicologist Ian MacDonald was of the opinion that the melody was more McCartney's style than Lennon's style. Given the song originated with Lennon, and there was no consensus from the two partipants, I think "written by John Lennon with input from Paul McCartney" is not wrong; McCartney agreed that the song originated with Lennon, and Lennon acknowledged that McCartney helped. The Composition section describes the dispute pretty accurately and thus presents verifiable evidence and allows the reader to draw his own conclusion. Going beyond that, one would have to side with Lennon or McCartney and I don't think that's necessary or appropriate. I suppose the "written by John Lennon" part may seem like it takes Lennon's side, but the immediate qualification dampens that, IMO. John Cardinal 18:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Authorship in first line

I have a problem with the first sentence as edited yesterday to the "with input from Paul McCartney" wording, which This seems to be devolving into an edit war.

"In My Life" is a song written by John Lennon with input from Paul McCartney (credited to Lennon/McCartney) ...
— new version

"In My Life" is a song written by John Lennon and Paul McCartney ...
— old version as I restored it

This change to the new version, seemed unnecessary to me. It deemphasizes McCarney's role in the writing without adding specific information. While the specific contributions are disputed, Paul at least wrote the bridge, so the word "input" is dismissing actual writing.

I reverted this change to it's former wording. My changes was reverted (and deemed vandalism) back to the new version. The reversion quotes these two sources that are not used in the article:

• http://www.iamthebeatles.com/article1007.html
• http://perso.wanadoo.es/sissu/maingear.htm

I haven't checked articles for other Lennon/McCartney songs to see if "with input from" is the convention. I think in this case it dismisses Paul's contribution excessively, and unnecesarily since specifics are detailed later in the article. "Input" can mean practically nothing. / edg ☺ ★ 18:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey there! Firstly, I didn't mean to dismiss your page as vandalism...I guess it's a force of habit? I dunno, I'm sorry about that. Anyway, back to the original discussion. Most sources close to the Beatles or Beatles-based all seem to agree that Lennon was the primary writer of the song. The only pro-Macca source I can find is Macca himself--and I hardly consider that reliable. Lennon and McCartney occasionally seemed to try to siphon credit from the other--McCartney claiming that "I'm Only Sleeping" and "Girl" were co-written (both were definitive Lennon compositions) and Lennon's famous assertion that he wrote "a good 70% of the lyrics" for Eleanor Rigby. Overall though, they did seem to be in agreement on most things, In My Life being an exception.

Usually whoever the main vocalist is is a good indicator of who primarily wrote the song--and witness that the song has been performed at Lennon tributes, and that Macca has never had it in a setlist (and surely he would if he were responsible for the melody).

That being said, it's agreed upon that it was Lennon's idea and Lennon's words, and most sources close to the Beatles say he was most responsible for the melody. It's also a song where Lennon's recollection has been extremely consistent--in both the 1970 Rolling Stone and 1980 Playboy (among others) he says he was the main writer and Macca helped with the middle. Thus, I'd say "John Lennon with input from Paul McCartney" is fair. After all, it was Lennon's song but McCartney contributed to it. I'd say the reverse would go for a song like "We Can Work it Out"--Paul's song, but John wrote the middle-eight--thus "Paul McCartney with input from John Lennon." To say "John Lennon and Paul McCartney" would make it sound like John co-wrote the main melody/lyrics--and he didn't. I'd say the same goes for here, and it doesn't diminish Macca's contributions--it just makes it clear that Lennon was the one primarily responsible.

CinnamonCinder 22:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

This is problematic, as it creates a new precedent for identifying in the lead if it's a "John song" or a Lennon/McCartney collaboration. I think this should only be done for undisputed single composer situations, but I'm not the person that needs to be convinced.

Precedent

As currently written, I don't see many opening paragraphs describing collaborated songs as "This is mostly John's/Paul's song" (not that I've looked for many examples). We Can Work It Out (example from parent comment) isn't listed this way. What is being proposed here would be the beginning of changes to many articles, so it should probably achieve some WP:CONSENSUS at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject The Beatles before it gets rolled out.

Language

My specific problem with the "with input from" language is that it is too vague. If I had to guess what it meant, I'd say Pete Shotton's role in "Eleanor Rigby" would count as "with input from"; in fact, so might John's role in that same song, which may have been nothing more than making several suggestions, all of which were eventually ignored.

Finding the right words to do this may difficult as it entails prioritizing different parts of the songwriting process — in this case, dismissing "the middle eight" and "very few lines" as not truly co-writing. I think it's better to use the established language and put the details in the article body, not the opening sentence.

Please will someone else debate this

I have a whole lot of "don't care" about this issue, and don't wish to be drawn further in. Personally, I prefer Throbbing Gristle. Today I found out Ringo contributed a line to "Eleanor Rigby"; please don't make me learn any more about the Beatles. / edg ☺ ★ 23:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If there is a dispute about the writing of a song (and specifically from the writers themselves) it should be credited as read on the label/publishing contract: Lennon/McCartney. If Lennon and McCartney disagree, then who are we to argue and push a POV? Bite the bullet, and leave it as is. --andreasegde 13:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Clearly, the official credit belongs in the infobox and anywhere else the official credit is expected. In the lead sentence/paragraph, I don't think we have to use the official credit; I think a better solution is to create a concise statement that reflects the evidence. I don't think the various revisions here have done that (including mine), but I think it's possible to do so. We just need to discuss it and reach a consensus.

From what I have seen, here is the evidence:

• Lennon said he wrote it but credits McCartney for the middle 8 (I forget the exact Lennon quote)
• McCartney says he wrote the melody
• Ian MacDonald, a credible source, says the melody sounds like McCartney

Given MacDonald's support, I don't think McCartney's claim can be dismissed out-of-hand. That doesn't mean it's the truth, whatever that is. It just means there is credible evidence. Despite claiming the melody, McCartney treats it as a Lennon song; he just makes a large claim about how he helped compared to what Lennon said.

If we can't reach consensus, then we can bite the bullet as described above by andreasegde. John Cardinal 01:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Just to make things clear, in the Playboy interview John talks about this song twice. The first time he mentions it, he attributes the whole middle eight(the one that probably doesn't even exist) to Paul -- musically, I mean. The second time, he says Paul 'helped' with the middle eight, which is of course more of an indicator that they wrote it together. It's the latter statement that is the most quoted.

Personally I find it to be a big myth that this song supposedly should be the one over which they disagree the most. Paul claims to have contributed largely to both 'Help', 'Ticket to Ride', 'Dr. Robert' and 'I'm Only Sleeping'-- songs where John basically takes all credit.

So, when John actually GIVES Paul credit for the writing of 'In My Life', as he does in 1980, I find it VERY likely that Paul's contribution is considerable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.153.194.200 (talk) 13:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

"Help" was solely Lennon's, so was "I'm Only Sleeping"; everyone considers "Help!" to be classic early Lennon. When has Macca ever made these ridiculous claims? And what's more important, what crack are you smoking?

216.165.23.27 06:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

"Everyone considers..." -- Who is everyone? When have they told you this? ""Help" was solely Lennon's...." -- Based on what evidence? Isn't it basically just a personal opinion you're presenting? John was the lead singer on all of these songs. But he was the lead singer on "Every Little Thing" also, which Paul wrote, so that doesn't work as evidence either. Paul has never suggested that John DIDN'T write these songs, only that he was there with him working on them. However, when Paul made his press statement during the 2002 McCartney/Lennon controversy(storm in a teacup), he did use 'Strawberry Fields...' and 'Help' as examples of songs which John was (more or less) entirely responsible for, which slightly contradicts his 'Many Years From Now' comments on the song. That COULD be used as evidence. --192.153.194.200 (talk) 17:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

McCartney makes these claims in the book 'Many Years From Now', written by Miles. It's been around for about ten years. For instance, he talks about having written the whole counter-melody to 'Help'. That could of course be considered as being more of an arranger's job than a writer's. McCartney goes through all of their songs. Sometimes he gives credit to Lennon for contributions to his own songs, sometimes he takes credit. Perhaps he takes more than he gives, which wouldn't really be that odd, as Lennon suggested in 1980: -Remembering his own contributions to Paul's songs was much easier for him than to remember Paul's contributions to his.

McCartney is now the only person in the world who knows the details of the Lennon/McCartney songwriting partnership, so whether or not he has an agenda -- as some suggest, his testimony should be taken seriously.

Lennon(1980): "Now Paul helped write the middle eight melody. The whole lyrics were already written before Paul had even heard it. In 'In My Life', his contribution melodically was the harmony and the middle eight itself." 84.208.227.164 16:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Note: "THE MIDDLE EIGHT ITSELF"!! 50% of the music. --192.153.194.200 (talk) 17:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

This article does not include claims made in the lead, which should have references:

It was ranked 23rd on the Rolling Stone article "The 500 Greatest Songs of All Time", and was placed second on CBC's 50 Tracks. Mojo magazine named it the best song of all time in 2000. These are not in the article. --andreasegde 14:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to John Cardinal

I agree. I think any of the following would be appropriate

I think "written by John with input from Paul" is the most effective. But I also think there are alternatives. We could take the possibility of not listing a primary author at all, and saying something to the effect of "the song originated with John Lennon, but to what extent the song was a collaborative effort with Paul McCartney is debated (see below)."

CinnamonCinder 06:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Other editors have already objected to the "with input from Paul McCartney" version and so we don't have consensus there. I like the "originated" phrasing because that is not in dispute. I also like the idea of saying they collaborated but the extent of the collaboration is in dispute. I am not fond of your specific wording (sorry!) so here's my suggestion, in context:

"In My Life is a song by The Beatles written by John Lennon and Paul McCartney. The song originated with Lennon, and while McCartney contributed to the final version, the extent of his contribution is in dispute." — John Cardinal 20:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I've only seen one particularly persistent editor with qualms about "with input for Paul McCartney." But I like your version the best. Btw My wording wasn't intended to be what was in the final version actually, it was merely to get across the essence of what an ideal intro would say. Something like what you said is obviously more clearly worded and encylopedic. Anyway, good job with your contributions and keep up the good work!

CinnamonCinder 06:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] If I Fell

The chords of 'In My Life' may be similar to those of 'If I Fell', but as that song, according to McCartney, is also a co-composition(Lennon probably did the intro alone, though); bringing up the chords of 'If I Fell' in this article doesn't support either one of their cases, as to who contributed what to 'In My Life', I mean. --84.208.227.164 16:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

McCartney makes his claim concerning the writing of 'If I Fell' in the book 'Many Years From Now'. That is the source. In the main article it says: 'Citation needed', after McCartney's claim. I don't know how to supply a citation, and I'm also too lazy to find out, so if anyone could do that work for me, I'd appreciate it.--84.208.224.234 (talk) 18:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recording

When John Lennon used the words 'play it like Bach', he used it as an example of what The Beatles would sometimes ask of George Martin. I don't see any reason to interpret those words as what he told George Martin in this precise case. It seems like wishful thinking to me. George Martin seems to remember that John didn't know what to fill those eight bars with, and that the whole solo was made on his own while The Beatles had a tea-break.. --84.208.224.234 (talk) 18:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Credits for the Lennon/McCartney songs

In pop music (since the Middle Age) very often, one song is not the product of just one person, but several. When we read credits like Lennon/McCartney/Starkey, who did what? I´ve always prefered the details, and in recorded pop music, the most important is, first, the lyrics and the melody; then, the arrangment and production; in some cases, the recording and the mixing process; and the orchestra and conductor (when aplies). Let´s see:

"In my life".

• Lyrics by John Lennon.
• Music by John Lennon and Paul McCartney.
• Arranged and performed by The Beatles and George Martin.
• Produced by George Martin.
• Engineered by Norman Smith
• Mixed by Geroge Martin and Norman Smith.

• Ringo: drums.
• George: lead guitar.
• Paul: harmony vocals and bass.
• John: double tracked lead vocals and tambourine.
• George Martin: piano.

So, 75% for John and 25% for Paul, but just for the lyrics and the music, how about given credtis to those who worked in the recording process?

Examples:

"Eleanor Rigby"

• Lyrics by Paul MCartney with John Lennon.
• Music by Paul Mccartney.
• Strings orchestrated and conducted by George Martin.
• Prodcued by Geroge Martin.
• Engineered by Geoff Emerick.
• Mixed by George Martin and Geoff Emerick.

• Paul: lead and background vocals.
• John and George: background vocals.
• String octet.

In the article "list song by singer", they used the formula Lennon and McCartney, for songs written by both; Lennon with McCartney (or viceversa) for songs written primarly by one of them. The order means who is the main composer (and usually is the main singer), and the "with" means "input", a significative one, not a single line or idea. A complete enciclopedya must list all the details of the song. And The Beatles and their fans deserved it too.

And finally, don´t believe Ian Mcadonald, I think he was the firts to list Paul as playing "flutes" on "Strawberry fields".

[edit] Referencing

In the "Recording" section, there is a quote by George Martin: "Play it like Bach". This has to be cited immediately after the sentence. I'm not sure which source, 9 or 10, refers to that quote (if either do at all). Could someone please find a source for that quote and cite it. Thanks! Kodster (Willis) (Look what I can do) 22:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)