Talk:Imbros

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Copied from Talk:Imbros and Tenedos. Some of the edit history of this article is also at Imbros and Tenedos. 20:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Proposed move: February 2006 2 Proposed move: October 2005 3 March 1 2006 edit 4 Citations on the situation of the Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos: 5 Merged content from The Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos per AfD 6 Edit of 15 March 7 Polytonic 8 Wines? 9 Requested move 19th June 2006 9.1 Discussion 9.2 Result 10 Renunciation of rights 11 Objection to the Result 12 Turkish use of Imbros and Tenedos in english 13 The Greek Population 14 Reversion 15 Ridiculous Edits 16 The "Civil Law" "revoked rights" part 17 Note on cats 18 Changing the names 19 Citations 20 Move 21 "Gökçeada town" 22 Tags 23 Schools 24 Imbros?

[edit] Proposed move: October 2005

[edit] March 1 2006 edit

I've just reorganized the page into roughly chronological order, and while editing for style and grammar I also tried to tone down what seemed like a very pro-Greek/anti-Turkish POV. However, I'm working without much knowledge here, and the page could benefit from someone who can give specifics (with citations!) for the ethnography of the islands during the 20th century, especially the Turkish policies that promoted the Greek exodus from the islands and exactly how they did or did not violate the terms of the Treaty of Lausanne. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 15:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The only way to support the Turkish point of view is if you believe that people can be driven from the land by any means as long as they are not of the right ethnic group to be there. The same view can be taken against Greek actions in Thessalonika, but it is hard to fault the Greeks in Imbros.Johnpacklambert 02:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations on the situation of the Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos:

Human Rights Watch: The Greeks of Turkey (from the “Denying Human Rights and Ethnic Identity” series of Human Rights Watch)

"The Greek community in Turkey is dwindling, elderly and frightened. Its population has declined from about 110,000 at the time of the signing of the Lausanne Treaty in 1923 to about 2,500 today."

" A Helsinki Watch mission visited Turkey in October 1991 and found that the government there continues to violate the human rights of the Greek minority. These acts include harassment by police; restrictions on free expression; discrimination in education involving teachers, books and curriculum; restrictions on religious freedom; limitations on the right to control charitable institutions; and the denial of ethnic identity." -The Situation of the Greeks of Turkey reflects the situaton of the Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos as the Greeks of these two islands make up a considerable part of the few remaining Greeks in Turkey.

Lonely Planet Guidebook:"Although exempted from the 1920's population exchanges, the exclusively Greek inhabitants have been driven out over the last 30 years..."-Referring to Imbros island. Globo 09:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed the citation needed sign and the "some Greeks argue" edit, and changed some of the wording. I think that my citations back up my arguments, although it is very hard to find widely accepted authoritative sources dealing with the subject in detail, but i did my best. It is preferable to use stronger wording rather than "some people claim", "It is thought by some" constructions.Globo 09:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Article 14 of the Treaty of Lausanne referring to Imbros and Tenedos

"ARTICLE 14.

The islands of Imbros and Tenedos, remaining under Turkish sovereignty, shall enjoy a special administrative organisation composed of local elements and furnishing every guarantee for the native non-Moslem population in so far as concerns local administration and the protection of persons and property. The maintenance of order will be assured therein by a police force recruited from amongst the local population by the local administration above provided for and placed under its orders.

The agreements which have been, or may be, concluded between Greece and Turkey relating to the exchange of the Greek and Turkish populations will not be applied to the inhabitants of the islands of Imbros and Tenedos."

-When comparing this article of the treaty to the facts on the ground the situation concerning Turkey abiding by the terms of the Treaty becomes apparent.Globo 09:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That's all I needed to know. Thanks for providing that. I agree that it's best to avoid weasel phrases like "some think", but sometimes it's an acceptable stopgap while waiting for a citation. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 15:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem. Your previous edit helped to put my contribution in order, and maybe it did need to be toned down a bit, for the sake of not having that subject take up most of the article!

Thanks, Globo 04:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The joys of cooperation. :) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:27, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merged content from The Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos per AfD

I've merged the content from The Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos per this AfD, as a new section titled "Greek population". I've wikified it slightly, but this section is still very POV, so I've tagged it with {{npov}}. Do with this content as you will. The original author has given citations for this content in Talk:The Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos. --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I have done significant copyediting. There were some word choices and phrasings that looked odd to me. Some of these gave an impression of an NPOV-violation: the repetition of phrases such as, "The Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos" where a simple pronoun would have sufficed tends, when done in English, to flag a work as a polemic, if not a screed. This may not be, for all I know, the case in Greek.

In any case, I think that the statements are well-supported by the references, and that all the needed references are in. I have removed the Wikifiy tag and propose to remove the NPOV tag. Comments? Robert A.West (Talk) 17:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I have copyedited further; and removed the tag. The article about the "Istanbul pogrom" should probably be added to the sources; although it is exceedingly PoV. Its statements on the islands are quite specific. Other sources for these actions (which are in themselves unfortunately all too plausible) should be found in the long run.

I have changed the sentence about Turkish intent to a pure conditional; it is after all entirely possible that they "only" wanted to benefit their own ethnicity, and didn't care whether the Greeks left after they were plundered. It may not be necessary at all.

A Turkish account of the islands would assist neutrality. In particular, their administration from 1920-1923 under King Constantine is unlikely to have been spotless. Septentrionalis 17:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit of 15 March

Edit 15 March: Concerning the turkish intent; it was the turkish intent to get the Greeks to leave, as stated by many of the sources[[1]] in particular: ...mais elle a de plus multiplié les efforts pour effacer tout caractère grec des deux îles... It is unlikely that the turkish governement "only" wanted to benifit their own ethnicity, as their own ethnicity hardly inhabitated the islands at all... Or in another sense that might be true, the turkish governement "only" wanted to benifit its own ethnicity on the islands by making room for it on the two islands in the first place- by removing the Greeks. But that does not change the intent.

It is unlikely that the Greek administration was particularly bad on Imbros and Tenedos, because they were nearly exclusively inhabitated by Greeks, thus there was not really a minority that could be mistreated.... In a sense the Greek administration would, in all likelyhood, have been considered a act of liberation by most of the islands inhabitants at the time! Globo 09:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The article says majority on Imbros, bare majority on Tenedos. This is not "nearly exclusively". Septentrionalis 20:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted this edit [2] for two reasons. First, because I cannot verify it. Churchill was in the hospital and out of office for most of the period in question. Second, because even if true, it badly needs rephrasing. Robert A.West (Talk) 01:43, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Polytonic

Ιμβρος should have both an acute accent and a smooth breathing. This combination will not display on many computers, including mine, without the {{polytonic}} template. I don't see any need for italic Greek letters here; they're already distinct, and usually lighter than, Roman lettering. Septentrionalis 14:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. No need to italicize text already not in Latin alphabet. For other scripts it's not even an option to do so. Satyadasa 22:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wines?

User:Aynali added a sentence about the famous wines of Imbros to the ancient section. Is there a source for this statement? Is it still true, or have the wines deteriorated in modern times as Wine Spectator suggests? If still true, the sentence belongs elsewhere in the article. If no longer true, that sounds like an interesting fact. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the sentence used to refer to the period before 1920. Neither Athenaeus nor Pliny mention Imbros; although good wine came from Thrace, and famous, if salty, wine from Lemnos. Athenaeus on Tenedos is worth including; note that the same Greek word can mean marjoram and oregano. Septentrionalis 02:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Renunciation of rights

The following paragraph, now deleted, is not neutrally phrased, and I oppose its restoration. Nevertheless, if the claims made are the Turkish case for their actions, they may be useful.

However shortly after the legislation of “Civil Law” on (my mistake- it should be this - Kertenkelebek) 17 February 1926 (Medeni Kanun, which was actually a direct translation from the Swiss civil law that is the most liberal set of laws of its time), minorities in Turkey renounced from their legislative priviliges and declared their will to be subjected to the equally same conditions as all the Turkish citizens. Thereafter in accordance with the law on “Unification of the Education Act” (Tevhid-i Tedrisat Kanunu) which has been previously accepted on 3 March 1924 schools were required to teach in Turkish.

Three questions do arise:

• Is this the legislation of the present Turkish Republic? I presume so.
• In what sense are the islanders supposed to be represented in the Ankara parlisment in December 1920?
• What is the case for national legislation overriding Turkey's obligations under the Treaty of Lausanne, which are not millet rights? Septentrionalis 16:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As the writer of the famous paragraph, let me explain:

First of all Treaty of Lausanne defines no nation or ethnicity as a minority. It only defines non-muslims as a minority and that's because when the treaty was signed there were still legislations in Turkey directly linked to Muslim religion, in other words the country has not been secularized yet. Due to this fact non-muslims required protectory rights not only to live freely according to their religion but also exclusion from to be judged by the non-secular legal system. However after 17 February 1926, legislation of "Civil Law" the legal system is completely secularized and it also brought the most liberal and modern legal system of its time to Turkey. "Civil Law" of 1926 also included additions like "rights to vote and to be voted for women" to the Swiss law which made it far ahead its time. It also guaranteed free-religion as a legal right and brought secular courthouses based on modern law. Therefore there remained no reason for the non-muslim minorities to be protected from "Muslim Law" anymore. Since it's way ahead its time in terms of modernisation, non-muslim minorities ALSO presented their will to be subject to this most modern system of legislation since even their "priviliges" fell behind the modern law. Hope this covers for everyone.  Kertenkel ebek ^(talk) 09:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The legislation specific to Gökçeada and Bozcaada reflecting Turkey's obligations under Lausanne Treaty dates from 1927. It needs a chapter of its own, as well as for the Turkish settlements for which records are available. But, in my opinion, no Turk who respects himself will contribute to this article as long as it is under the present name (this is only a guess). I wouldn't for one, why bother? When people will start sending letters to Tenedos and it will come back to them undelivered, they should sue wikipedia for for the postal expenses. We can have an article titled "Imbros and Tenedos under the Lausanne Treaty" but the two Turkish districts to which they correspond have names. If I wanted to put the templates for the municipalities (as here), I would have to put two templates for two separate districts in one page. And furthermore, there's much information lacking. Once again, why bother adding them? As for Shakespeare, he also used the term (in Othello) "foul and dirty no good black" (as well as others in the same vein), but I don't see a proposal coming for re-naming a wikipedia page according to his terminology. Just try! :) Cretanforever

I believe this threat to go on strike to secure a name contrary to Wikipedia policy and uniform English usage displays an attitude contrary to the putposes and intent of WP. If anyone else thinks so, I will start a request for comment. Septentrionalis 17:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

There was no threat. It is strange to see the word "threat" when I was expressing my opinion and my guess, the choice of the word "strike" is strange as well. I am not trying to secure a name. I put a vote and I expressed an opinion. You can do as you see fit. Cretanforever

What do other editors think? "No Turk who respects himself will edit this article" sounds like a call against blacklegs to me. Septentrionalis 17:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for adding This is only a guess Septentrionalis 19:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

What is hard to understand about naming articles in the natural way for the language in which they appear? If I spoke French well enough, I would happily edit the article on Etats-unis and consider it no smirch against my honor or self respect. I would hardly expect the French to name the article anything else. If someone wants to start a Lenne-Lenapi Wikipedia and use the appropriate Algonquian name (which I forget) for Pennsylvania, let them. As for the mail point, neither our readers nor, I suspect, the Turkish postal service are that clueless. The official name is given in the lead, and international mail is routinely delivered when addressed comprehensibly in the writer's language. Robert A.West (Talk) 21:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• There are two islands. From what I could check, this is the only article which presents two Aegean islands of some significance together. I add that there is some distance between them.
• Each island corresponds to a district. Each district and its center town bear the same name as the island as far as the designations in Turkish are concerned. I am assuming that the understanding would be identical for the names Imbros and Tenedos. Therefore, the article's name does not only relate to the names of Turkish islands, but also substitute to those of Turkish districts. And at the present state, they differ from the actual name, the official name used both in administrative and in practical levels. This makes another unique case (as besides their having been presented together). All other districts are under their official names.
• These two islands/districts/center-towns are not administratively bound to each other in any direct manner. They are both part of the Çanakkale Province and they share parallel administrative elements set up in the frame of the Lausanne Treaty. The Treaty unites them but the provisions set up by the Treaty are implemented in a distinct manner for each island/district/center-town.
• They have not had first-rate importance in antiquity or under the Byzantine Empire (unlike, for example, Samos), which would have provided a reason for an attachment to a certain name

in the heading. I don't think that many people in (for example) the U.S. rise early in the morning and ask themselves "What's up in Imbros and Tenedos today?"

• For English-speakers, in Shakespeare's day, and indeed till very recently, Taiwan was called the island of Formosa, and Sri Lanka was the island of Ceylon. I agree that both are also sovereign states. But the island of Kos was formerly called Stanchio in English.

Cretanforever

Shakespeare is merely the most famous (and one of the oldest) of English writers to speak of Tenedos; to name the most obvious: Byron, Kinglake, Brooke. There are hundreds if not thousands of others. As far as I know, all call it Tenedos - and those I have named are writing of the island in their present, under Turkish rule. Septentrionalis 02:45, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we should start by splitting the articles on these islands. One article for each. Cretanforever

Of course they should eventually be divided into Imbros and Tenedos; although doing so while so much of the material is common, including the legislation of the Turkish Republic, seems pointless. I should add that it makes no difference to the question of location: Imbros is also established English usage, even if it lacks Homeric glory. Splits under non-English names are deleteable as POV forks. Septentrionalis 15:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I did not believe that i would ever agree with Pmanderson, but in this case i do! the article has to be split, so that each islands would have its own article, even if most of the material will be common. but, there is no chance for them been renamed in the english wikipedia. --Hectorian 11:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It's very interesting to hear that Byron and Brooke were mentioned as reference. Byron went to Greece's aid in its war against Ottoman Empire and Brooke fought in WWI against Ottoman Empire. NPOV? Brooke? Byron? Hmm... --Volkan 21:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

And Kinglake was a friend of the Turks and a historian of the Crimean War, in which Great Britain was allied with Turkey. So? This has nothing to do with English usage. Septentrionalis 23:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand how you can claim that Kinglake was a friend of Turks. However others' bias is obvious. They were involved in the fight, literally. Their choice of names is a reflection of their political views. Would you expect Byron to use a proper Turkish name when he goes there to save the cradle of western civilization from barbarians? Following the same argument may be we should rename Istanbul as Constantinople, the name used in Lausanne Treaty! I am still not convinced that using Greek names for these territories agree with NPOV.--Volkan 00:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I've always tried to stay cool and explained myself to the furthest extent. But trying to change a district's name because it was once called something else can't be more than a joke! Please accept my apologies for my inappropriate phrase. DeliDumrul 06:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Objection to the Result

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Here are some examples on how today's English speaking world refers to the islands: Britannica Gokceada entry (there are no entries for Imbros), The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Bozcaada entry (search result on Imbros), The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Imroz entry (see how it has a redirect, and there is again no entry on Imbros), Bozcaada and Gokceada entries on MSN Encarta, small map from worldatlas.com showing the islands, weather reports on Gokceada on weatherreports.com and weather underground, World Gazzetteer entry on Bozcaada. I'd find this adequate to illustrate the common English names of the islands. As for official names, I don't think anybody disagrees. DeliDumrul 06:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, users who cast votes here should take a look at Wikipedia:Voting is evil. DeliDumrul 18:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Since in the light of the last proofs provided by DeliDumrul above, all objections against the move request have been made obsolete. Now it's expected that opposers who don't lack in logic and good faith to remove their oppositions based on Imbros and Tenedos being English referrals to the islands and accept that they're nothing but the ancient greek names to the islands. Besides this article is about districts of Turkey more than about 2 islands. This is not the place to re-name districts of a sovereign country by votation, the facts are clear, Gökçeada and Bozcaada are used as official and English names to the districts as well for the islands. No one opposed that the English names should be used in Wikipedia and above is the proof that Gökçeada and Bozcaada are English names to the islands. Therefore the consensus is upon using English names to the islands which are proven to be Gökçeada and Bozcaada. If you wish, check the references one-by-one yourself, however anyone objecting the move from this point forward is either:

(a) lacking some intellectual skills required for interpretation,

(b) too lazy to have information before having an idea,

(c) does not know anything about the naming convention on Wikipedia,

(d) just politically (anti-Turkish) motivated users without an atom of good faith within.

This discussion ands here and the article should be moved whether there's a consensus or not (though there's a clear conensus that English names should be used rather than greek names), because it's mainly the last group (d) of users distracting the consensus on what's logical and correct by flooding the page without even bothering to argue their POV. As stated before; you can't change facts by votation! Besides it has been just one week since the votation started which does not allow enough time for the discussions and again not enough time for the neutral (non-greek) users to have an opinion on the subject topic. It's not even a fair survey for this reason! Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 08:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Like many other people, I believe that google counts are misleading. Even if they were meaningful, it is explicitly stated that Wikipedia is not a democracy—the saying that "what is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right" applies. (from Voting is evil)

Having said that, I double-checked the google search results for Imbros Tenedos and read through the summaries of the first 40 results. All of the hits, except for a couple of sites, were either pages about history or Greek web sites. DeliDumrul 22:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish use of Imbros and Tenedos in english

Evidently, even some Turkish sources not trying to propagate their POV use the terms "Imbros and Tenedos" in english, such as this Turkish Government website [[5]] And, for the record, I will forever revert any edits which state anything as ridiculous as the greeks "renouncing their rights"!! I wonder if they were asked or if someone renounced it for them??!! The Turkish government had obligations under the Treaty of Lausanne, and that obligation was ultimately not fulfilled. There was, and is, no way out of that agreement. The greek "native non-moslems" don't lose their rights because Turkey becomes "secular". Guaranteed. Globo 12:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. So, what you are implying is; all Turkish sources try to propagate their point of view except for a few, and one article written by a zoologist published on a zoology journal reveals the fact. Let's don't forget, because this article was uploaded to a user's personal page on a government web site, it is the Turkish Government website who uses the terms Imbros and Tenedos. This is Evidently an evidence. Please.. DeliDumrul 14:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Greek Population

This section needs a lot of clean up. Thanks to those who cleaned up some of the mess. Bur more needs to be done. Below does not necessarily mean that I disagree with every bit of the section as it is now. However we can not keep it this way. It has been like this for a long time now and as this is an article, not a sandbox, we can not offer readers unsourced information. We are NOT authors but merely editors who volunteered to find widely accepted sources and compile articles out of them.

• First paragraph: the islands were inhabited primarily by ethnic Greeks from ancient times through to around the middle of the twentieth century. This needs citation.

Because precise census records are a recent phenomenon, the detailed historic ethnic makeup of the islands must remain a matter of conjecture

This sentence is ambiguous and it represents the authors perception.

• Later: census taken shortly before the islands were granted to Turkey

Citation neeeded. Don't write down (CITATION NEEDED) but tag it! it's kinda concealing that it needs citaion.

• Next paragraph after the treaty: In fact, the local Greek population was marginalized in multiple ways,.

Is this a fact? Citation?

• Next paragraph: Greeks had owned 95 percent of Gökçeada's (Imbros') agricultural land prior to these expropriations, today they own almost none. Citation needed.

• Next paragraph: the situation of the Greeks of the two islands continually deteriorated. [...] in some accasions resulted in harm both to islanders' property and, in some cases, to the islanders themselves.

This includes both comments and observations any of which can not be done by a WP editor. Source?

• Last paragraph: These policies and events led to an exodus of Greeks from both islands.

When you say these policies it is a point of view wether NPOV or not. In any case needs proper citaion. All points of view of notable entities can be represented only by addressing their respective owners and with references. If this is a notable POV, then it should be referenced. If not, it's personal POV and can NOT represented in an encyclopedia.

If you say events led to an exodus it would be a conclusion deducted from the rest of the section which is neither sourced nor referenced.

I also want to remind you of this basic, simple yet very important rule guideline about information put down just faute de mieux:

Anyways, the section was in a terrible mess before. It's much better now, however it's either properly sourced and referenced or it is gone. DeliDumrul 14:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Many of these are sourced; the source is not perfect. The solution is to bring more sources; not to delete the existing ones. Septentrionalis 16:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

For God's sake! You reverted Porfyrios's edits, too. My edits were not on the names. If you want to change the names, just do what you want to do. That's a whole another story. About the source, if I dump information from a nobody source would you keep them?? DeliDumrul 03:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Please calm down and start from here. I tried undoing all Kertenkebelek's vandalism by hand; and the result was not only tedious, but gave less acknowledgement to the Turkish names than the reversion.

• The bit about the Treaty of Sevres not being ratified seems largely irrelevant, and I recall it otherwise; but I will add the obvious, that the Turkish Republid was not signatory to it.
• The remaining collateral damage is things about which we disagree: If you feel you must include a nothing source, that would seem only fair; but a better source from the Greek PoV would be much preferable. Septentrionalis 15:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
  • And a better source from any point of view would not only improve the article; there is a possibility that it might provoke a better source to replace this one. One can but hope. Septentrionalis 18:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reversion

If this sort of nonsense on the names does not stop, I will request page protection; and there are other measures which can apply to patently disruptive editors.

Asd for the modifications from pure reversion:

• Fine, Kertenkelebek can have his completely unsourced paragraph; the Greeks have several barely sourced ones. I may revise its tone.
• Turkish War of Independence is the name of the article. If you must, go fight there. Septentrionalis 16:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

You are reverting both my and Porfyrios' changes not Kertenkelebek's. I really don't understand one thing; why do we have to keep unsourced (a couple of parts poorly sourced to POV webpage) information until somebody finds better sources?? If that person who dumped it in the article can not cite it then why are we trying to find sources for his version. Even if we all agree with him, it still can not sit in the article without source. It's destiny is to be deleted (period). The best option you could have in this case is to carry unsourced information to the talk page and wait for it to be sourced. I don't see any rationale in tendentious is better than nothing. In fact, it's the other way around: nothing is better than potentially false or misleading information. DeliDumrul 06:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ridiculous Edits

Some of the edits happening are simply ridiculous. You can't just write Gokceada (Imbros) and Bozcaada (Tenedos) in the quote from from the Treaty of Lausanne!!! Its a quote!!! For Gods sake people, the name should be used interchangeably in the article, whatever suits best, and not ALWAYS with a bracket next to it. And a lot of the information that is thought to be unsourced above is actually sourced, from many sources, including facts like that 95 percent of the Greek arable land was expropriated (look in the french one). You can't put a link behind every sentence, it would be really annoying to read. And a pain to do. Some things are obvious, such as the fact that the Greeks left because of Turkish "actions". Look in some of the sources I gave at the start of this discussion page and most of the sources in the references. And to constantly question and delete simple, unbiased conclusions drawn, reflecting sourced material, and summaries made of sourced material, to me is ridiculous POV pushing and vandalism Globo 06:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Which most of the sources in the references?? There is no references section. There are no sources. The French page you call a source is no more a source than something I'd myself write and put on my university's web server. I also don't see how Guide to Lonely Planet can be a source about history. That section is about history and international politics. It's not about the cafeteria around the corner from your house, you can't use everything you find on the web as a source.

Actually you can put a link after every sentence (are you familiar with journal articles?). However those citatian needed tags are not to be replaced by references one by one. Those tags show that you are presenting facts and those facts should be based on references. If one reference covers the facts in a paragraph, you can put the reference after the paragraph (not in every case though, things like census results need to be cited immediately after)

and don't call my edits ridiculous POV pushing and vandalism I wouldn't keep informing people that I reverted their edits if I were a vandal. DeliDumrul 13:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The "Civil Law" "revoked rights" part

I do not agree with the "subjected to equal conditions as other Turkish citizens" wording. The "civil law" and "unification of education" law clearly denied minorities in Turkey to exercise their culture and language in Turkey, naturally the Turks were still allowed to exercise their culture and language in Turkey, thus the the beforementioned laws actually subjected non Turks to special discriminatory conditions, in breach of the Lausanne Treaty.

[edit] Note on cats

I notice that several, specifically Turkish, cats, have been moved from Gökçeada and Bozcaada, which redirects here. I really don't care, but some editors seemed happier with having Category:Districts of Çanakkale show Gökçeada and Bozcaada. If anyone, now or in future, wants to move them back, I won't object to that either; the effect is much the same. (If they are moved, they should be commented out here, not removed entirely.) Septentrionalis 17:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You made some good points, but I think the categories should be in the actual article, not a redirect—in order to prevent confusion. However, as you said, I wouldn't object if they were added back either. —Khoikhoi 23:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I think it is time that these articles be split... —Khoikhoi 23:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree; I've always found it strange they were treated in a single article, when it seemed clear to me that each should have his specific article.--Aldux 23:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

My only reason for not splitting into Imbros and Tenedos was that so much of the content was common. Where should Imbros and Tenedos and Gökçeada and Bozcaada redirect to after the split? Imbros, I suppose. Septentrionalis 15:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

No, it could be a dab page. I know the content is common, but one must not forget that these are different islands. —Khoikhoi 17:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Fine, let's split. I've done a mechanical division, cutting out most of the references to each island. Septentrionalis 02:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changing the names

Please keep the names as it is. This article is not correct place to discuss the adjective "Ecumenic". I you can see I try to put all place names and history as possible as neutrally. Please discuss "Ecumenic" name in the relevant pages as before.Please See Also link which is used here. Regards _{Mustafa Akalp}^{(T) (C)} 08:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You object to "Ecumenical Patriarch"? Why? Septentrionalis 16:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The title is 'Ecumenical Patriarch". This is the title he uses, the title he is known worldwide and the title under which he is accepted by nations, states, organisations and leaders, etc etc... If someone disputes the usage of this title, he should comment in the respective article's talk page. Thus, i am reverting... Hectorian 18:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

How we can add citations for "Madam Cafe" and "Barba". They are live and I know them, what kind of citations needed? please help. _{Mustafa Akalp}^{(T) (C)} 08:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

If they're not mentioned anywhere else, then they're not verifiable in Wikipedia's sense of the word, and we should not include them. This is partly because, while WP is not paper, we cannot include even one sentence on everybody on the planet; if no one has found them notable, we have no reason to. See the list of things Wikipedia is not; in addition, Wikipedia is not a neighborhood directory. Septentrionalis 16:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move

Hectorian, Till to today, official name was Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople and you change the name and why you move the linked articles. Please contribute with some words/sentences/photos here instead of revert and move. Regards. Mustafa Akalp^TC 18:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

There are the articles Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople and Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. what i did today was updating Bartholomew's articles to be in accordance with the articles of his patriarchate and his title. I know why u dispute the usage of this title, but it is not something that can be pushed here... Upon next revert, i will present sources by the Patriarchate itself, the Vatican, Greece, EU, BBC, Reuters, Britannica, Columbia, USA, etc etc etc... So, please do not revert. Regards Hectorian 18:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Hectorian. Two hours ago you moved Patriarch of Constantinople to Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. No need nationalism. Did you ever know ,where Barthelomeo was born two days ago. I am trying to be neutral. I contribute many things as well as the Barthelomeo's birth place,and I asked your oppinion(with khoikhoi and Tekleni) not any Turkish user. Please be reasonable.

Much regards. Mustafa Akalp^TC 18:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Gökçeada town"

According to this map, there is a town on the island called Gökçeada. Is this the same as Çınarlı/Panaghia Balomeni? I noticed that it appears to be in the middle of the island on the map.

Also, has anyone ever read the book "Imbros" by Murat Yaykın? I found an interesting article while searching Google. —Khoikhoi 02:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Had the article been in english, i would be able to read it...:) Hectorian 02:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but I think the people in the image are Greeks. Note here and here you will find instances of the words "Rum", "Rumlara", and "Rumların". :-) —Khoikhoi 02:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, i know... I can understand some scattered turkish words, but not the meaning... (so, i dare not come in conclussions...:)...) Hectorian 02:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes this book sounds interesting as it is a obviously Turkish source, but seems to also talk about the Greek inhabitants of the island and also the ethnography (etnografik! oh man I can speak Turkish!). Note that it is also titled Imbros, and Imroz is used in the article, with Gokceada being in brackets. It would be nice if a Turk could translate some of the blurb... Globo 07:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tags

It would be nice if people who want to tag this article would look at our WP tags first and see what they say and mean, rather than leaving the article a mess. I have consolidated, I think, the meaningful complaints; but whoever did this should read WP:PEACOCK before using that tag again.

Some of these complaints seem simply groundless; the source, for example, of the text of the Treaty of Lausanne is the Treaty of Lausanne, which is widely published.

Many of the other statements complained of are sourced in the references listed, usually in the obvious one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schools

The pamphlet I have been following asserts that the Greek schools of Imbros were closed in 1927, and the buildings diverted to other uses; the Greeks were permitted to build new ones in 1952-3, and they were confiscated again in 1964. The following sentence was unsourced and disputed, and it looks like an incomplete account of the same events; but I put it here in case anybody can source it.

The teaching in the Greek language in schools was forbidden in 1927 by law 1151 on the “Unification of Education” (Tevhid-i Tedrisat Kanunu).

To move sentence at the bottom and left the sentence above in the article, is created a bilateral-miscorrect info in the article.Must^TC 20:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please be clearer; explain more fully what the present text asserts that is false. I don't see from your post. I just want to get this right, not push the Greek PoV; but the Greek pamphlets are the only accessible sources on the 20th century history. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

However, in the town and in the five villages there were schools which were financed by Greece and constructed by the local inhabitants{{cn}}, and Greek teachers who had Greek nationality worked in these schools together with Turkish Teachers until 1965.{{cn}}

Is my eyewitness enough for above sentence?(For the graffiti on the wall of Primary school of Dereköy; I am the writer/painter.Must^TC 20:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

What is missing here is the assertion that Greek teachers were excluded from the schools before 1952. I took this out largely as redundant, not false; we are dealing with two different accounts of the same events. The pamphlet suggests that they were supported by the islanders, not the Greek government; do you know that of your own knowledge? Better yet, do you have a source? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I have not itemized the extensive complaints of deprivation of Greek schooling and curtailment of language rights, because not peculiar to Imbros. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Imbros?

Shouldn't the title of the article be 'Imvros' since thats the way it is said? Vita does not make a 'b' sound. Grk1011 (talk) 23:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Imbros is the established form in English, just like Lesbos, Euboea, etc. Policy is to USEENGLISH. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Well that's weird, how would how pronounce 'Euboea'? Youboya?!?!, that is not even close to 'Evia'. Grk1011 (talk) 23:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, "Youboya" is probably it. These are just the traditional pronunciations in English, obviously based on the traditional Latin transcriptions of the names. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)