Talk:Ima Hogg/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Marital status

Was Hogg ever married? The article sort of seems to imply she was always a Miss, but never actually says so. --Gwern (contribs) 19:33 11 December 2006 (GMT)

The Handbook of Texas calls her Miss Hogg throughout the entry, so I'd assume she never married. — Laura Scudder ☎ 17:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Last Name Pronunciation

According to a substitute teacher I had back in high school in Houston, "Hogg" was pronounced "Hoe-g" not "Hog". The substitute was a docent at the Bayou Bend Museum, which was once Hogg's home, so I think that can be considered a reputable source.

As this alters the joke inherent in her name, do you think it should be mentioned? Hopelessshade 01:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The above note about pronunciation is somewhat refuted by another anecdotal source here: [1]:
I greeted her with, "How do you do, Miss Hoag," mispronouncing her name, and she replied, “My name is Hogg."
I prefer not to mention pronunciation until we have a better source. Maralia (talk) 17:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Hughes Rudd, CBS News, and the Hoggs

In the early 1970s, Hughes Rudd was anchoring the CBS Morning News (then with Sally Quinn) when he wrapped up one program by telling a story about Texas governor Jim Hogg and "... his daughters Ima, Ura, and Vera..." Rudd had great difficulty finishing the article with a straight face, and the program ended with both Rudd and Quinn laughing. The next day, Rudd issued a retraction in which which he stated that there was no Ura or Vera Hogg, but Ima Hogg and the governor were very much real. B.Wind 21:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"roots were deeply embedded in the state’s welfare"

This needs to be reworded, it doesn't make sense. Could somebody come up with some suggested rewording? I've wracked my brain. Corvus cornixtalk 18:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Shanda Lear

Bill Lear's daughter (of Lear Jets).[2] [3] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Reliable ?

Not convinced on this one: http://www.houstonhistory.com/ghoustonians/history8ff.htm SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

They list their sources at http://www.houstonhistory.com/credits/hhcredits.html. Corvus cornixtalk 21:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Amazon list

I think the mention of the list of unfortunately named authors described as "published by Amazon" needs to be removed; it's not a list published by Amazon, but rather a user-created list. Maralia (talk) 21:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Maralia; didn't realize that was user created, and was just trying to rough out some of the possibilities so others could turn it into compelling prose (although I see all attempts have now been chopped). I'm not watching closely, so maybe you can keep the cite news formatting on track here, and we still have a HH source, which I'm not sure is reliable. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Saving another aggressive cut here, in case there's a way to work it into an encyclopedic legacy section:

... another famous person who has been the subject of name jokes is Shanda Lear (chandelier), the daughter of Bill Lear of Learjets.[1][2]

She's very well known for her name, as well as her philanthropy; I don't see why legacy can't explore the naming issue, although it does need to be done in encyclopedic tone. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Legacy paragraph

This has evolved into a great article. However, I feel the legacy paragraph is inappropriate and an insult to Miss Hogg. She was known for much more than the stupid names that are listed (all that is needed is the first sentence of the second paragraph). There are other people besides Miss Hogg that can have unusual sounding names, why an entire paragraph here? Take the remainder of the paragraph and create a "people with funny names" article. Postoak (talk) 00:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you cut a bit deep, since she is widely recognized precisely because of her unusual name? Perhaps you can try to write the text in an encyclopedic tone that works, but cutting all of it isn't necessary, is it? Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-03-03/Dispatches SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't remove the text. Anyway, I think the coverage of her "unfortunate" name in the legacy paragraph in the current version is very appropriate. I did add a ref request to the sanatorium visit paragraph...did she have TB or a neurological disorder? Excellent work. Postoak (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Saving pre-improvement version here for future reference. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Miss Hogg's Death

Y Done Everything in this section has been added. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


Associated Press (August 21, 1975), “Texas's Ima Hogg, Philanthropist”, New York Times: pg 38 

"Ima Hogg, a philanthropist who preserved many treasures for Texas, died yesterday in a hospital in London, where she had been vacationing. She was 93 years old. Miss Hogg fell while getting into a taxi several days ago." Note the AP story had a dateline of August 20, 1975
Y Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Cite news, in formatting consistent with rest of article (page number formatting should be consistent, as well as date formattting per WP:MOSDATE) :
"Texas's Ima Hogg, Philanthropist", The New York Times, Associated Press, 1975-08-21, p. 38.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Associated Press (August 23, 1975), “Ima Hogg a Heart Victim”, New York Times: pg 24 

"Ima Hogg, prominent Texas philanthropist, died here Tuesday from natural causes not related to a fall she suffered a week earlier, a United States Embassy spokesman said today. An autopsy report showed that Miss Hogg, who was 93 years old, died of a heart attack due to atheroma, an arterial disease"
Y Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

-- SWTPC6800 (talk) 00:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Cite news, in formatting consistent with rest of article:
"Ima Hogg a Heart Victim", The New York Times, Associated Press, 1975-08-23, p. 24. 
Please take care with citation formatting when adding sources, per WP:WIAFA, crit. 2c and Wikipedia:CITE#Citation_styles. Citation templates should not be mixed with citet templates, and consistent citation is a requirement for featured article status. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


"Texas's Ima Hogg, Philanthropist", The New York Times, 1975-08-21, p. 38. 

This is a 400 word obituary written by the Associated Press. Are they an author or Publisher? Here are two more quotes from the article.

Former Gov. Allen Shrivers of Texas had this to say of Miss Hogg when he gave her a distinguished alumnus award of the University of Texas 1963: "Some persons create history. Some record it. Others restore and conserve it. She has done all three."

Y Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

To this encomium a comment was added by Mrs. John B. Connally when her husband was Governor: "The Governor's wife is usually called the First Lady of the State, but Ima always has been and always will be the First Lady of Texas."

Y Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The cite news template you did above is correct, Swtpc6800 (using the "work" parameter causes the newspaper name to be italicized, per WP:ITALICS; good stuff, do you want to go ahead and incorporate that into the article? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Advisory Committees

New York Times (September 25, 1960), “President Names 13 To Arts Committee”, New York Times: pg 71 

Abstract (Article Summary)
"WASHINGTON, Sept. 24 -- President Elsenhower appointed thirteen persons, including nine New Yorkers, to the Advisory Committee on the Arts for Washington's proposed National Cultural Center today. He also asked eleven cultural organizations to designate representatives who would serve on the committee as ex officio members."
Abstract (Article Summary)
"President Names 13 To Arts Committee", The New York Times, 1960-09-25, p. 71.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done This has already been added. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

New York Times (April 18, 1961), “First Lady Names A Fine Arts Group”, New York Times: pg 42 

Abstract (Article Summary)
WASHINGTON, April 18 -Mrs. John F. Kennedy created today an eighteen-member advisory committee to work with her Fine Arts Committee for the White House in seeking historic furniture for the Executive Mansion.
"First Lady Names A Fine Arts Group", The New York Times, 1961-04-18, p. 42.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done This has already been added. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

-- SWTPC6800 (talk) 01:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


Louchheim, Aline B. "Art in Our Great Southwest", The New York Times, 1953-12-13, p. 14. 

There are exceptions… "A conspicuous one is the superb Early American furniture collected by Miss Ima Hogg of Houston (this knowledgeable lady also bought Picasso and Kandinsky watercolors in 1917)."
Y Done Added, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Hill, Gladwin. "Metropolises of State Lay Claim to All the Appurtenances of Older Traditions with Emphasis on Well-Defined Strata", The New York Times, 1957-02-11, p. 31–32. 

Text Word Count: 2787 Abstract (Article Summary)
HOUSTON, Tex.--The legend is that practically all Texans have at least a million dollars and are boors.
The article is part of a series about high society in various states. This installment is on Texas. There are photographs of two individual at the start of the article. The first is Hugh Roy Cullen with an oil income of 1 million dollars a week. (This was in 1957!) The other is Miss Ima Hogg.
"But one social figure celebrated throughout the state and even beyond its border is Miss Ima Hogg. She is now about 80 but still a civic beacon of Houston."
Y Done added, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, swptc, I see where I went wrong here; it says photographs of two, and I read as profile of two, not many. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
There is a paragraph on her father and her name which is from "The Fate of Marvin".
"Miss Ima, as she is universally known, got a fine musical education in the East and in Europe, and dedicated herself to galvanizing musical interest in Texas."
Y Done added, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Curtis, Charlotte. "A Grande Dame Comes Here From Texas to Promote Culture", The New York Times, 1964-03-04, p. 32. 

Text Word Count: 651 Abstract (Article Summary)
Miss Ima Hogg is as real as the Texas oil wells that produced her family's fortune. The 81-year-old grande dame, a blue-eyed strawberry blonde, was in New York last night for the Houston Symphony's debut in Philharmonic Hall.
On their 50th anniversary, the Houston Symphony played in Washington D. C. and New York City. Ima Hogg (81 years old) went with them.
"And when it played in Constitution Hall Saturday night she shared a box with President and Mrs. Johnson."
"She also had a special tour of the White House - in a wheelchair because the distances are so great."
"She was born in New York at the turn of the century, and she can remember when Richard Strauss's music was new and Picasso was an unknown."
"She began to collect works of Picasso, Matisse and Klee in 1928 but gave them to the Museum of Fine Arts when she decided to restore her estate along purely American lines."
About Bayou Bend. "The house contains Copley and Peale paintings, and a Gilbert Stuart portrait of George Washington."

-- SWTPC6800 (talk) 03:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Only partially done, I didn't add all of this, someone else should review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
uh, oh !! Why does the Times say she was born in New York ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
The story was on the entertainment page. The Times entertainment reporter could be wrong. Maybe the New York Times is not a reliable source. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 03:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Who'da 'thunk it? :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Sargent

Can someone please determine if I linked to the correct Sargent here? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The Smithsonian concurs. Maralia (talk) 17:01, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks :-) I stubbed out the uncle, and I asked Mav if he can stub out the Plantation.[4] I also asked Pharos (of George Washington (inventor) to peek in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Signature

The article says that she scrawled her first name throughout her adult life, but this letter form 1958 indicates otherwise - http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/governors/modern/daniel-hogg-3.html. Corvus cornixtalk 22:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

It looks like a scrawl to me :-) We can't go against what a reliable source says, to provide our own interpretation of a sample of her handwriting, because that would be original research. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, it looks legible to me, but I'll defer.  :) Corvus cornixtalk 22:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
That is what the book said, but we don't have to include the information if we think it's likely to be exaggerated. I wouldn't object to taking it out, but I don't object to leaving it in either. Karanacs (talk) 00:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Possible additional material

  • Rice is offering a (barely) for-credit course on Bayou Bend & the Hogg family's philanthropy: [5]
  • "Having fought her own battle with depression, she became a zealous proponent of mental health care." and : [6]
  • "In 1918 - 12 years after Jim Hogg died - oil was found on the property." [7]
  • "Her friend and fellow collector Henry Francis du Pont encouraged Miss Hogg to establish a house museum as he had done at Winterthur in Delaware": [8]
  • " their devoted daughter was devastated. She subsequently began a lifelong battle with depression." and "Her personal experience with mental illness shaped her growing concern for fellow sufferers." : Texas Monthly 27.12 (Dec 1999): p.142 [9]

Maralia (talk) 03:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I guess a corset then was the equivalent of implants now, only a lot less expensive. We need to get them to release images to us !! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:53, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I haven't found a damn thing as far as free images go - nothing at Library of Congress, National Archives, or New York Public Library. Wish we had more time :/ Maralia (talk) 04:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I've been taking notes from the Bernhard book and realized that it would probably save time if I post those here for someone else to incorporate into the article, so I can keep reading and taking more notes. I've posted what I have so far at Talk:Ima Hogg/additional material. If no one else has time to add the info in, then I'll get to that later this weekend or Monday. If you have any questions about the information, just ask. It all makes sense to me, but since I'm really familiar with a lot of this history I can see how there might be gaps for other people. Karanacs (talk) 14:06, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll help, but I might not start working on it until tonight - it's absolutely gorgeous outside here! Maralia (talk) 15:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
As I noted on Sandy's page[10], I've contacted the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston and the Bayou Bend house about the corset photo. If I hear back from them, y'all will be the first to know.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Y'all probably know my prose stinks, so I'd best not try to add content, but I'll watch for all the MoS and other stuff. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The Fate of Marvin

If anybody is interested, there are a few copies of The Fate of Marvin, the poem that Ima was named for, available for sale on the Net. Including a centennial reprint, signed by Miss Ima, at http://www.biblio.com/details.php?dcx=63874184&aid=frg (the other copies are not so pricy). Corvus cornixtalk 17:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Information I took out of the article

I removed the following information from the article. One of the books I have doesn't even mention her mental issues after WWI. The other one does (notes posted on Talk:Ima Hogg/additional material). The one that does mention all of this speculates that her depression was the result of the death of a boyfriend, based on a photo of her with a young German man, but said there is no proof that this occured. I didn't take notes on that part because it didn't seem like it should be included if there's no proof, but I can transcribe the info if we want to present it as a theory in contrast to the theory that she remained unmarried out of fear of tuberculosis. If I can find a citation for the quote, I'll add it back in.

Ima Hogg never married. Her fiance was killed during World War I, and, following the war, Hogg was admitted to a sanatorium in Fontainebleau.[citation needed] Late in her life, Hogg depended on the assistance of admirers to get around. She once remarked to a young woman who had come to drive her, "Many people assume," she said, "that if one has plenty of money, one's situation is ideal. They forget that I have no husband, no children and no close relatives in Houston. On Sundays the servants are off and if you had not called, I would have been alone all day in that empty house."[unreliable source?][3]

This info needs to be reincoporated into the article, but I hadn't built a place for it yet. Much more to flesh this out in the notes. As a child, Hogg often accompanied her father on official visits to state institutions.[4] Hogg then returned to Texas, settling in Houston, where she helped found the Houston Symphony Orchestra in 1913. She became the president of the Houston Symphony Society in 1917.[5]

Karanacs (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Status

Here's the list of things I think still need doing:

  • Finish gathering source material. I have half of the Bernhard book left to read, but I've finished the other book. Do we know of any other source material that is available?
  • Incorporate all the notes into the article. I'm adding my notes at Talk:Ima Hogg/additional material
  • Copyedit-I know what I've added definitely needs some prettifying
  • Images.
    • IF the weather decides to be nice again and IF my toddler cooperates I'll try to make it out to Varner-Hogg on Friday to take a picture of that house. There's also a slim possibility that I might also be able to get to Houston to get a picture of Bayou Bend on Saturday.
    • There are a lot of family photos reprinted in the books that I have. Several of them date from the late 1800s or before 1910. The books list who holds the actual pictures now, but I am unsure of the copyright status. Any idea on whether these could be used, either as PD or fair use?

What else? Karanacs (talk) 18:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I went over to Portal:Houston and asked if somebody could take Bayou Bend photos and got a volunteer for this weekend. Corvus cornixtalk 18:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Awesome! Karanacs (talk) 18:36, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Expand the lead at the end, make it snappy, and add something that could be (double meaning?) interpreted as "hoaxish" or "punny" to draw the reader in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Sources, I think we're good with what we've got, don't know of others. Images, Elcobbola (talk · contribs) is best to ask, The Fat Man is also working on them, see my talk page. Copyedit, I say don't even worry yet, just get the text in, surely Tony or Maralia or Yomangani or someone will run through it at the end to smooth it all out, for now, just focus on adding the content. As to adding your sandbox material, I'll help if no one else does it, but my prose isn't optimal, I don't want to create edit conflicts with you, and I wanted to let you set the basic article structure first. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I have an unexpected houseguest (plus the same toddler complication as Karanacs!) so I'm iffy for another day or two. If I can't manage to help incorporate the sandbox info, I'll at least copyedit it when the time comes. Maralia (talk) 18:55, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Mine have gone in to the City for the entire day, so I can work on whatever y'all want, but as you all know, my prose stinks. Just holler if you need me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to say that if you see something I've put in the article that is too trivia-y, please take it out. I sometimes get so excited about fun facts (like the circus in this article) that I forget where the line should be between trivia and real content. The line feels a little more smudgy here anyway given the reason we're collaborating ;) Karanacs (talk) 19:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

My take at this point would be to add it all, others will chop later if needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you all think this can aim for WP:FAC by Monday, March 24 ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll have the rest of the book transcribed by tomorrow afternoon at the latest. If we can get all of the information added in by Thursday, then we can have the weekend to copyedit and be ready by Monday. Karanacs (talk) 19:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Karanacs, I can't access that GaleGroup article above; are you going to work in her own battle with depression? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Bayou Bend

I was thinking about adding a whole section on Bayou Bend in here, but does anybody think that should be in a separate article? Corvus cornixtalk 18:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Needs to stay tightly focused on her; I would say, create the separate article, and then we'll summarize back to here anything needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Should it be a separate article or a large section in the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston article, since it is technically a part of the museum? I've got more information about Bayou Bend in longhand that I need to transcribe. Karanacs (talk) 19:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I would lean toward a separate article as it is listed in NRHP. Perhaps someone could ping WP:NRHP requesting a stub started with NRHP info? I'd do it myself but I'm not their favorite person this week. Maralia (talk) 19:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I say let Corvux ping, I've been striking out on that angle lately as well. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Is it an NHL? I don't see it listed on their website. Corvus cornixtalk 19:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
According to MFAH at [11]:
"Bayou Bend is listed on the National Register of Historic Places and certified as a Texas Historical Landmark."
I found it on the NRHP but not NHL. Maralia (talk) 19:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Infobox?

Shouldn't this article have {{Infobox Person}} or something similar? -MBK004 02:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I hope not, since they're useless and never contain any info not already in the text, but sometimes consensus forces those ugly things upon us. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, we should probably ask someone at WP:WPBIO knowledgeable, since that may come up at FAC. -MBK004 02:32, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
The knowledgeable reviewers at FAC are here :-) If consensus here is that we have an infobox, we'll have it. Objecting at FAC for lack of an infobox is not actionable, and not valid, and the person who closes FACs will ignore it :-) If editors *here* want one, it will happen, but I oppose it as they are useless and ugly clutter. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm just wondering what the policy of the applicable wikiproject is, because at MILHIST, to get to B-Class, an article has to have supporting materials which include an infobox/pictures. -MBK004 02:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
First, why should we take a perfectly delightful antique-ish picture and clutter it with a box full of text that is *all* in the first paragraph, second there is no requirement at WP:WIAFA for an infobox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I realize that there is not a global (wikipedia) requirement for FAC, but I'm thinking along the local (project) level. -MBK004 02:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but, so? Let's see what people here want; if the majority editing here want it, we'll have it. A Project doesn't dictate that, and for FAC, there is absolutely no need, no reason, and any fuss about an infobox at FAC won't matter. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd be pretty amused at anyone who objected solely on lack of an infobox when all the important information is already easy to access, regardless of any project preferences. — Laura Scudder ☎ 02:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
oh, the infobox lovers always come out of the woodwork ... they seem to take comfort in having information repeated under a picture, that detracts from the image :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Playing devil's advocate: if you look at an infobox as being part of the lead, WP:LEAD would actually say it must contain the dreaded redundant information (so that's not really a fair criticism). Infoboxes facilitate accessibility; some folks genuinely only care to glance at a cold, heartless infobox and run without reading our beautiful prose. If the infobox is kept concise and well-organized (they are, after all, somewhat of a house style), is it not unreasonable to attempt to accommodate the aforementioned "runners"? </advocate> I don't think Ima needs one. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 13:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm a member of WPBIO too, and there is no hard-and-fast rule about infoboxes. I think they can be really useful for politicians and authors, but for other people I don't see that the infobox really adds much to the article. I think it's fine to leave it out. Karanacs (talk) 13:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd bet good money that one will eventually be forced upon this article by the infobox lovers; they always are. If it comes to that, it's not worth fighting over. (By the way, MBK, the difference with MilHist is that their infoboxes contain a lot of info that is scattered throughout the article, that summarizes weapons, technical data, other things... that's not the case with bios ... bio infoboxes are nothing but info that is either useless or already found in the lead. I don't object to MilHist infoboxes, or even MEDMOS, as they contain useful standardized info that isn't already in the lead.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm more of data enthusiast, so I'd prefer an infobox + picture. I just think it's nice to have infoboxes for those folks (myself included) who just want basic info about article, without having to read the whole thing. I guess if you have a nice lead, I could live without the infobox. :) Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 17:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

NYT crossword puzzle clue

Hogg's name was well-known, and on August 10, 1975 one of the clues in the New York Times crossword puzzle was "Miss Hogg", with the answer "Ima".

Is this necessary? It looks like the trivia that we don't want in Wikipedia articles. Also, the connection between both independent clauses is weak, since it appears as if you are backing up the claim that her name is well-known because she appeared in an NYT crossword puzzle. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 17:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Right now we've just been adding all the information we can find into the article. I'm sure there will be lots of info to trim, and feel free to start trimming or copyediting as you see issues. Karanacs (talk) 17:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Nish, Karanacs is struggling (against the clock) just to get the text added (and she's getting little help); can we hold off on the tweaking/fixing/editing until she gets everything in? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
No problem, guys. I'll chip in as well. I reserved a book on Hogg (Bernhard) at my university library. I should be able to pick it up when I'm back on campus on Sunday. For now, I can use Google Books and NYT archives (I just realized I have full access to the NYT archives, so if you guys need anything, let me know). Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 17:45, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Nish; Karanacs has a whole ton of stuff in sandbox (read up), so I hesitate to dig in without knowing which section she's currently working on. Be sure to review her sandbox info. I don't want her to feel constrained about adding trivia :-) We can chop at the end; she just needs to get in as much as she can for now, against the clock. She's finishing up the Berhhard book today, and has notes on it in her sandbox, Talk:Ima Hogg/additional material. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, Nishkid, we're aiming for copyediting by the weekend, FAC by Monday, so Sunday may be late for text additions, although it will help in the continued tweaking. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to keep adding on here; also, someone else already went through the NYT, and all of those notes are above (on the talk page) and already incorporated, I think. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone else have access to ancestry.com or any other historical newspaper sites? Ancestry had over 250 articles listed that mentioned Ima. I've looked at 10 from the San Antonio Express, and only 1 of those had new content to add (the rest were a lot of "Miss Hogg went to visit her friend...."). I don't think these are critical, but they may have interesting info or might be able to shed light on whether any of thse pictures were published before. I won't have time to make it to Houston to scour the archives of the Houston Post or Houston Chronicle, unfortunately, but I can do some more work in the ancestry.com archives if there are no other genealogists out there. Karanacs (talk) 18:14, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Good news from the MFAH

I've been corresponding with an archivist from the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston regarding permission to use this image. According to her, the museum considers that image to be in the public domain. She also made an offer to assist us in researching the article. I forwarded the email to Sandy and Elcobbola, whom I've asked for advice on how to upload with proper tags. The email also contained the following interesting tidbit, in case it matters:

"Also, I took a quick look at the current article and noticed that the first link to an external image is actually a copyrighted image (Image from the Winedale Center for American History). Although it is credited as "Courtesy of the Hogg Foundation for Mental Health", it is actually a cropped portrait taken in the drawing room at Bayou Bend for Vogue magazine. We have a duplicate print here, but Vogue owns the copyright. I just thought you should be aware since you are providing a link to it."

I hope this helps to some degree.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 22:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Per WP:EL and WP:COPYRIGHT we can't knowingly link to copyvios; do we know which one it is? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I removed this one; I think that's the right one? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:37, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Are we sure it's a "vio"? I guess the fact that they don't credit Vogue makes it a violation??? I am fairly clueless about such things.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 23:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be unwise to link to it, according to Wiki policies and based on what MFAH said about the photo (that Vogue owns the copyright). We can't knowingly link to a violation, and if we know it may be a violation, that's enough for me, particularly for an article aiming for FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Maybe we should not link directly to the picture of Ima in the chair but the University of Texas at Austin web page on "The Winedale Story" deserves a link. [12]
I do a lot of image copyright work here on Wikipedia and museums are notorious for claiming copyrights on public domain stuff and otherwise getting the copyright wrong. We would have no links to museums if one copyright error was enough to ban them.
SandyGeorgia, if you think your prose is bad, I have to really work on my articles to get them up to stub class. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 02:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
So far, the MFAH seems more than reasonable; the archivist readily acknowledged that the portrait we recently uploaded was in the PD. I emailed her again today, to inquire about images of specific pieces donated by Ima that we could use to illustrate this section. Also, the MFAH has extensive archives "relating to [Hogg's] personal affairs." Here's what the archivist wrote to me about the material in Hogg's archive
"Regarding the Ima Hogg Papers in the archives, you are correct in that they are available for research only in person. Not yet online. There is a brief description of the collection on our website (http://www.mfah.org/archives/holdings.asp?par1=9&par2=1&par3=1&par4=1&par5=1&par6=1&par7=), and if you wish, I can send a more thorough description and container list to your colleagues. We also have a vertical file with clippings and articles related to Miss Ima."
Corvus cornix and Karanacs, are the Hogg Papers of interest to you? It's kind of a shame that only a visitor to the museum could peruse these materials, but the archivist may be able to help us out with a summary of their content. Let me know if you'd like me to pursue this further.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 10:47, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The Bernhard book is written primarily from the archives and interviews with people who knew Miss Ima well. I don't think there would be much more information that we would need to see. I have company coming tomorrow, and there's just no way I could get to Houston to look through the archives. Karanacs (talk) 13:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Of course. Naturally, I wasn't expecting anyone to be able to take a trip to the museum to look at her papers. Speaking of books, Karanacs, do you have access to a book called America’s Treasures at Bayou Bend: Celebrating Fifty Years by Michael K. Brown, via a university library or something?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 22:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
No university libraries near here. I've lucked out so far because I live less than 30 miles from Varner-Hogg, so the Ima books have been in the local interest section of my local library. Surprisingly, though, the library doesn't have this book. I could get it through interlibrary loan, but that could take up to a week as the library is closed all weekend for Easter. Karanacs (talk) 23:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Improved image contrast

I took the liberty of improving the contrast of this image. It may be used to replace the existing file if the original uploader approves. Mytwocents (talk) 02:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Mytwocents, can you please ping Elcobbola (talk · contribs) about that; he's on the image issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
By all means, alter away; that photo did look like it had been sitting in the sun. Your version might have too much localized contrast, however (hair and front of the dress). I'd recommend backing it down a bit. You're certainly welcome to replace the image on the commons (I can, too, if you don't have an account). ЭLСОВВОLД talk 22:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I dialed back the contrast, you can replace the image on the commons for me if it looks close enough to what you have in mind. Thanks Mytwocents (talk) 23:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Art donated by Hogg

I've started copying some of my correspondence here.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Ready for next phase

I think I'm done with adding information from the Neely and Bernhard books. I've crossed out the information that has been included; please check Talk:Ima Hogg/additional material and see if I left out anything that should be included. Next steps: COPYEDITING and MOS Fixing!!!! I'll log on as often as I can to help this weekend. Karanacs (talk) 02:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia notes

  • We should be OK on MOS; I've been checking it all along. The dashes in the lead are off, but I'm assuming the lead will be rewritten (and the physical description needs to go somewhere else). I do have one question for Tony.
  • Consisting of 53 oil paintings, 10 watercolors, and one bronze, it is known as the Hogg Brothers Collection, ...
  • I had changed the "one" to a "1" because I thought WP:MOSNUM required consistency in lists.
  • Sorry, I just hate 1 sticking out in the middle of a sentence, unless it's 1 mm etc.. Tony (talk) 01:59, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Also, can we determine and source whether that bronze is in fact a Remington "Bronco Buster"? If so, we have an image in commons.
  • Tony, why did you de-cap the F in fate?
  • Her first name was taken from The fate of Marvin,
  • —Doesn't MOS require titles to be in sentence case, not title case? Hardly anone insits at FAC (Noetica did once, with Paul's nomination.) Tony (talk) 01:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
  • It's uppercase here, so I'll move it back. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • It's uppercase on the actual book - I saw that on my tour today. If that's an MOS rule, it's stupid and should be changed. Karanacs (talk) 02:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Karanacs, we do need to work in something about her never marrying; you had something in the sandbox, do we have more?
  • I added this; needs to be checked. I came across something somewhere that she was playing the piano by the age of four, have we established the concert pianist issue? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:18, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm not certain this wording is spot on, Karanacs, can you check it with the source?
  • She was convinced that if children's emotional and mental problems were treated, they would be less serious than those of adults.
  • Why? Texas law? US law? The will?
  • as a woman she was prevented as acting as executor of the will ...
  • I checked my two biographies again, and neither of them mentioned that she was prevented from being executor. They just said that Mike was the executor and Ima acted as his advisor. Karanacs (talk) 02:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Need to fix these per Tony and K:
  • a well-known lawyer and state's attorney< !--Many readers won't know what this means—they'll think it's Attorney General; should it be district attorney?-- >,
  • In 1898, Hogg accompanied her father to Hawaii, where they met the Queen< !--Victoria presumably-- >
  • maple Spanish foot chair.< !-- Note: I have no idea what a Spanish foot chair is and the books don't explain. -->
Don't know what to do with that, but anyway. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Other collectors soon saw the value in early American pieces, but Hogg remained one of the only collectors not located on the East Coast< !--I don't see the logic of "but" here; two ideas jammed together uncomfortably-->.
  • Hogg moved out of her home,telling the docents< ! --??--> that
  • and Oveta Culp Hobby) invited < ! -- why "invited", did someone not actually join? -->to become a member of the Academy of Texas,
  • In death, < ! -- More about the foundation? -->
  • I'm not sure "even" is the word we want here; I added her age (81) to this statement because she doesn't appear to be strawberry blonde in the younger photos ... not sure about hair coloring later in life???
  • tall and of fair complexion, and—even at the age of 81—as a "blue-eyed strawberry blonde".
I put a cquote at the bottom; we're not supposed to do that, but I don't know how to "prettify" that quote. A blue box ? Anyone ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll add more later. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Responses to Sandy's points above:

  • According to Neely p 75, that was a Remington Bronco Buster
  • That's good news, because we have one in Commons; apparently there were about 20 of them. The Commons image isn't the same one, but it was one of the same lot (or whatever you call it) I believe ... maybe someone else can doublecheck me on that. This Image:BroncoBusterRemingtonSculpture.gif says it was number 17 of a limited edition of 20. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I just added in the info that she had turned down 30 proposals of marriage
  • oops, I added it as well, do we have it twice now? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I took out my insertion, so now it's only there once. Karanacs (talk) 18:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The exact quote from Neely on the reasons behind the Child Guidance Clinic is "miss Ima was convinced that early help for a child's emotional problems could often prevent more serious illness in the adult." (p 70)
  • Yes, I think that sentence could be tweaked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The "Queen" referenced was Liliuokalani, the Hawaiian queen who was overthrown. I fixed this in the text.
  • The docents are the people who lead the tours of Bayou Bend
  • All three of them joined the Academy of Texas as far as I know

I just got back from Varner Hogg and got a few good pictures. Once I find the cable for my camera I'll upload them. Karanacs (talk) 18:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

  • I was uncomfortable with the emphasis on looks, dress etc, in the lead—is it more than half the lead? It could be seen a stereotyping the view of her as a woman ("it's all that matters"). Suggest taking that out, or reducing to a small statement at the end of the lead, and inserting important stuff like her expertise in furnishings and artworks, her charitable work, etc. Tony (talk) 02:04, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
  • See above (mentioned in the first part of my notes); the lead hasn't even been written yet. I put that text there when we didn't have all the article structure in place because I didn't know where else to park it. Now, it needs to go somewhere else, and the lead needs to be written. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:07, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Citation Needed: "one of the most respected Texan women of the 20th century" It is fully covered in the Awards and recognition section. If you need a specific cite use Nellie Connally's quote "always will be the First Lady of Texas". NY Times obituary, 8-21-1975 -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Done, thanks! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Bayou Bend images

Here are the images of Bayou Bend requested by Corvus cornix. One problem might be the high resolution (page load?), perhaps someone can fix this? Anyway, they are yours if you want them. Postoak (talk) 23:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

So exciting! I left a note for Elcobbola (talk · contribs), since he speaks images and has a commons account. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the photos! I'll transfer these to the Commons and we can let folks decide which one(s) to utilize in the article. The only change I'll make will be the orientation of the plaque. Size is just fine (20 mb is the max) and the thumbnail modifier keeps load time in check. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 00:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Here you go (commonscat is in EL section, too). Is an admin following this FA drive who can delete the redundant Wiki versions or should I CSD template them for whomever comes along? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 01:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I can request to have them deleted. Postoak (talk) 01:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think any of us are admins, not sure? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
All those times you could have been nominated, Sandy...Yomanganitalk 01:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Look who's talking :-) Interestingly, quite a nice crowd here, too ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
And I've really taken a liking to Miss Ima. Now the hospitable Texas folk have to invite us all for a gathering at Bayou Bend. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Nice place for a meet up! Postoak (talk) 01:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll even drive down from Huntsville. -MBK004 01:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

My vote: I prefer BayouBendHome and BayouBendPlaque. The fountain and the porch have people showing, and the other garden is just ... garden ... but if we want just garden, I like it, too. I vote to avoid the two with lots of people. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm an admin; just pester me when you're ready to delete something. -MBK004 01:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, MBK; we need those images above deleted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Yep, they're all on the Commons now, so they can be deleted per CSD#I8. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 01:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Will do, won't take but a minute or two. -MBK004 01:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Done, those links now link to their locations on commons. -MBK004 01:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Very much obliged, MBK. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 01:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree with Sandy; we should try to avoid the images with people. I suppose I can always Photoshop them out, if there's a pressing needed to utilize them. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 01:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Odd bits

The article has certainly come on leaps and bounds, but there are still some odd bits here and there which jump out at me:

  • The "Depression" section is a mess: it starts with her love of travelling and her travelling to Europe; then war breaks out; then we have a small paragraph on her depression 4 years later in a different country, which goes from being probable to a year of treatment under a specialist; then we have her abandoning her dream of being a concert pianist (a dream which the reader may have inferred, but has not been stated explicitly); and finally we hear she never married, though no connection to her depression is made. I'd suggest that the travelling get rolled into the "Early Years" section and her depression into the philanthropy section (where it ties up nicely with the mental health foundation).
  • "Awards and recognition" and "Legacy" essentially cover the same topics pre- and post-mortem, why not roll them together after "Death"? there's really no need to keep a strict chronological order for these as far as I can see.
  • "Description and disposition" gives us a few snippets of description and what seem to be bits of trivia about her character that don't fit in anywhere else. The examples of her disposition seem to be non-NPOV here: why have these episodes been chosen? I'd think this whole section would be better amalgamated into other sections.
  • In the brief bit of reading I did on her, it came across reasonably strongly that she initially had difficulties administering her money because of her legal status as an unmarried woman. Perhaps something of that could be mentioned. For example she could not vote or be appointed executor of her brother's will, and think I read she could not buy or sell land without her brothers' permission or sit on a board of directors.
  • The final sentence is missing a direct object: Former Governor of Texas Allan Shivers awarded Miss Ima as a distinguished alumnus of the University of Texas in 1963... She must be awarded something; in this sentence she is being awarded to somebody. Also, why is she "Miss Ima" here, rather than "Hogg"? It might be nice to finish with a friendly "Miss Ima" but it should be quoted so the reader is aware we know what we are doing. Yomanganitalk 01:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Would you mind doing the honors on all of this? Karanacs was just trying to get all the text in, and she's pretty busy with toddlers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Varner-Hogg images

I've uploaded three photos from Varner-Hogg. For ease of viewing, they are all on the Varner-Hogg Plantation article. I put one in the restoration section, but I'm not sure that's the best place for it, so feel free to move it around or replace it with another one. I also have a photo of the house that Miss Ima lived in on the Varner-Hogg site after she gave the place to the state. I can upload it if we think it's necessary, but it will take some fiddling on my part b/c I didn't hold the camera straight when I took the picture (d'oh!). Karanacs (talk) 03:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Timing and status update

No lead yet (Niskhid64 said he would give it a go, but haven't seen it yet), the Odd Bits mentioned by Yomangani need to be finished up, we still need some funny, punny but factual accurate content in the lead, and some images still have to be added. Perhaps Wednesday is a more reasonable FAC goal than Monday? Like Yomangani, I wish we could nail down this business that she couldn't do certain things (executor) for some reason ... because she wasn't married? Because she's a woman? Can anyone figure that issue out and source it? Maybe TFMWNCB can ask the archivist? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the museum might have taken Good Friday off. I'll check in with her again on Monday (still waiting to hear back from her re: the dead fiancé).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Found this here; work to be done:

... facts and articles that are true, but either unusual or manipulated in a way as to sound unbelievable. While readers may sometimes come to Wikipedia expecting some joke article for April Fool's, the proposal is to make the Main Page so unusual or unbelievable that the reader will conclude that the Main Page is presenting jokes as fact, but the joke is actually on the reader: everything on the Main Page is as close to 100% factual as we may make it.

See last year's mainpage. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I've written the lead now. Unfortunately, I couldn't really come up with any funny stuff or puns. :( Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 21:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Something I'm not clear on; is the manipulated to sound unbelievable only worked into the mainpage blurb, or the article lead as well? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
TFA blurb only. The lead from April 1, 2007 looked pretty straightforward. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 21:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
So the article is probably OK, the gift is in the blurb ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Here are few ideas that could be used in a main page blurb

  • As a child, the young Hogg had a menagerie of barnyard animals.
  • Her brothers had normal names. She gave away their prized collections.
  • She overcame mental illness but lived the rest of her life as the First Lady of the state.

-- SWTPC6800 (talk) 22:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added in a few more images and done another small copyedit. Unfortunately, copyediting is not my forte. I don't like the placement of the description section, but I can't think of a better way to place any of that information. I think we're probably ready to nominate for FA and see what the reviewers have to say (are there any reviewers, though, who haven't worked on the article already?). Karanacs (talk) 14:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I can try to look through it today, too. Quick question from the lead: why does the article say Jim was a DA? His article asserts he was an AG (from an apparently reliable source). There is a difference and both exist at state (as opposed to only federal) levels (DA is local - i.e. district - and AG is state-wide). Bad phrasing on my part; the issue is consistency. I'll "fix" it. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 14:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
(ec)He was a DA when Ima was born and became an AG a few years later. Karanacs (talk) 14:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ideas for April Fool's lead

I'm not sure if we're supposed to write the April's Fool's lead or if Raul writes it, but I thought we might want to jot down ideas here just in case. Here are my ideas, please add more or cross off these.

Ima Hogg was an ostrich jockey and circus emcee who later brought culture and class to Houston, Texas. As a child and young woman she was quite unlucky; one ship she was scheduled to board sank with no survivors, a second one docked in Germany the day after England declared war on that country. She nursed three family members, none of whom lived very long.
After suffering from a mental breakdown, Hogg established several institutions to study mental health. A compulsive hoarder, Hogg eventually gave large collections of artworks to various museums and donated several homes to the state of Texas.
Contrary to popular belief, Ima did not have a sister named "Ura".

Karanacs (talk) 14:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Pharos wrote the TFA blurb that appeared on the Main Page last year. It did attract some controversy (see the page history), though. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 16:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll catch up later today (haven't gotten through my watchlist and haven't looked at the article yet today), but let's be careful not to count our chickens before they hatch :-) Or, cross that bridge if we come to it :-) If the images are in, the Yomangani Odd Bits are resolved, I think we're ready for FAC (Yomangani's list was what I was most concerned about, although I still don't know how most bios handle the "physical description" part). Karanacs, it's your nom, so you decide the timing; whenever you're ready. I guess you will have to mention everyone who was involved as that does decrease the reviewer pool ... but each person's involvement was limited, so you can say for example, thanks to Elcobbola and fat man and ... for image help ... thanks to Maralia and Tony for copyediting ... Nishkid for the lead ... and so on. Significant contributors can still support, but just need to declare they are contributors. Good luck ! Since I did MoS cleanup (resulting in a gazillion edits, making it look I actually did something when I did almost nothing), this decision will be left to Raul. Probably best to leave mention of 4/1 out of the nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

FA nom

Thank you everyone for your help!! I've now nominated for FA status. I'd appreciate any help responding to comments on the FA nomination page. Karanacs (talk) 16:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Trips to Europe

I just took another glance at the article, and noticed this material: "In June 1914 she sailed to Germany. While she was en route, Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria was assassinated. The day before she arrived, England declared war on Germany. The United States was still neutral, however, so Hogg continued her tour of Europe, not leaving until October 1914." You might want to consider moving this to the end of the next section. It seems a little odd to discuss her 1914 trip to Europe, and then later discuss her earlier trip to Europe.Ferrylodge (talk) 17:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That section or the next section might need rewording slightly, but moving the details of her trip into a section on her musical interests seems odder still. Yomanganitalk 18:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Ferry, can we possibly go back to the starting place, before that edit, and work through this on talk, so the FAC isn't affected? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure, we can go back, but I don't see how a trip at age 32 is part of "early life."Ferrylodge (talk) 19:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
It's an odd paragraph; perhaps Karanacs can go back to the sources and find a way to relate that text to another section, so it can be moved to a more logical place. But let's figure it out first, so we don't run into issues on the FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
The source for that trip says she sailed on SS Chemnitz on 11 June 1914 from Galveston to Bremen, and, further, that she arrived in London on 5 August. (Typical runs for that ship were about three weeks from Galveston to Bremen, which means there's about 5 weeks between her approximate arrival date in Bremen – if she in fact went there – and her cited arrival in London.) — Bellhalla (talk) 23:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps we could find a better place in the article for that text if we had more context for its importance/significance, and could better relate it to other text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the book used this for 2 purposes: a) to show that Miss Ima was an unusually brave woman and b) as a potential meeting place for the rumored fiance who died in WWI. I don't have any objections to removing it as it doesn't appear to fit very well into the article right now. Karanacs (talk) 01:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
If you can add to the text something cited that demonstrates the qualities (unusually brave), it could be added under disposition (I see we got an infobox, shoulda known someone would unilaterally add one). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
In fact, it probably works as written alongside the burglar story, just showing her character ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, being somewhere in Europe for a few months during World War I does not necessarily seem particularly brave to me. In those days, there were some very placid parts of Europe even during the war. If she visited the front lines, or performed for the troops, then that would be something else. I'm sure she was plenty brave, but this episode doesn't seem to show it.Ferrylodge (talk) 02:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
The quote in Bernhard was "independent and self possessed". I've added this in before the burglar story (which was also in Bernhard) and then mentioned the WWI travel as well as another example. Does this sound better or should we just take it out? Karanacs (talk) 22:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I think it's fine; would that our pop culture article prose got a fraction of this scrutiny. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
It's fine. We're doing Ima justice here.  :-)Ferrylodge (talk) 23:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

We talked about them (in archives, I hate them, and they're not required), but since it will probably come up again, should we have a new discussion about consensus on the infobox, as here? If other opinions predominate, I'll cave :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think one is necessary for this article (and I think it looks especially bad with the only picture we have), but I won't complain overly much if consensus says we need one. Karanacs (talk) 01:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
As I noted on my talk, I have no strong opinion about these fickle boxes. They can get extraordinarily large (as here), and with a concise lead, at least in this particular instance, an infobox seems superfluous. --Kakofonous (talk) 01:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Seems like no one is willing to fight over it ... but it sure adds a lot of clutter to our one image :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree that an infobox is not needed here. Nor is an image needed of what her name suggests (unless someone comes up with a really good one!).Ferrylodge (talk) 01:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

MFAH update

The director of archives of the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston could find no evidence that Miss Ima was ever engaged. Were there any remaining mysteries that I should ask them to investigate? I'm also in the midst of seeing if they'll release a couple museum images to us... will keep you posted.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

See the FAC for a strange inconsistency about her father's terms (two or four years); maybe they'll know what that's about? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm on it.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

News flash

We may be close to getting the museum to release a few more images (although some of you may be satisfied with the art and Bayou Bend photos we already have). I could use some image-acquiring help from an experienced editor. The relevant correspondence can be found here.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 23:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Minor, minor, minor point

Is 'Texas' (as in 'one of the most respected Texas women of the 20th Century') really an adjective? I'd always thought 'Texan' was the appropriate usage. I will of course defer to anyone from, say, Texas, or at a pinch any of the other 49 states. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 08:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The use of a place name as an adjective is more news-y than encyclopedic (e.g., "Texas man bites dog"). I also vote for "Texan" or even "most respected woman in Texas."--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 10:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Speaking as a someone from Texas, it is common usage here to use Texan as a noun, but Texas as an adjective ("a Texan" vs. "a Texas man"). However, "most respected woman in Texas", certainly works as a compromise for me. — Bellhalla (talk) 11:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy with 'most respected woman in Texas' too. Thanks for responses. 4u1e (talk) 11:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Fixed. Karanacs (talk) 14:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Y Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Images

These need to be forced. Considering her attachment to visual arts; they look very small to me, and I have no preferances set, AFAIK. Resize:larger? Ceoil (talk) 02:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right; meets the MoS criteria for forcing. Do it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Why would we be forcing these instead of changing individual preferences? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 02:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
When it's about the art? WP:MOS#Images: Apart from the lead, other cases where a specific image width is appropriate include (but are not limited to) images with extreme aspect ratios, detailed maps, diagrams or charts, and images in which a small region is relevant, but cropping to that region would reduce the coherence of the image.
But I defer; you're the expert. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
(That's refering to panoramic images, etc. that need to be forced to something other than standard thumbnail sized). ЭLСОВВОLД talk 02:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Only editors can set preferences. I have none set, ans they, to a man, look puny. Forced, now. Ceoil (talk) 02:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
You appear to be an editor? I object to this; change your personal settings to 250 or 280 if you want to see them that size. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 02:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh for god sake. Go pick a fight somewhere else. I want a fine article, you want an issue. Please. Ceoil (talk) 02:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
This is also a fine article. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 02:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Guys (two of my favorites), tonight is critical on timing. Elcobbola, Ceoil has written a number of art featured articles; what he means is that non-registered users don't have the benefit of user prefs. They only see what we set. Let's work this out amicably; timing is critical tonight, and we need and appreciate both of you greatly. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Willing to shake with elcobbola on principal-it was very trivial. Best? Ceoil (talk) 02:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That comment was entirely out of line. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 02:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Which straw? You What? You eh? An argument is always better than mud. Ceoil (talk) 02:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
<hands over ears>La la la la la, I can't hear you</hands over ears> Both of you have good points but there appear to be misunderstandings of tone or something here. What say we all take a break and come back nice, refreshed, and happy in the morning? Karanacs (talk) 03:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
And I take full responsibility for encouraging a change before we had all discussed. My fault. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Not at all you fault, just a misunderstanding. Strange what people get worked up about; my apologies to elcobbola if I seemed out of line. Ceoil (talk) 12:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Revisit image size

Time to revisit now? First, my apologies for encouraging Ceoil to to ahead without waiting for more discussion first with other involved editors. This has been a delightful collaboration, but it is mainly Karanacs' work, and I was out of line to say "do it" without waiting for more feedback. I don't care which way this goes, but do care that we respect each other and that we not create an issue at FAC.

On a practical note, very few FAs comply with MoS on forced image sizes (specifically, art and architecture articles, where the exception to the criterion applies), so if we don't, we won't be way out of line in terms of what gets by FAC all the time. Also, Elcobbola, I don't read the guideline as strictly as you do; I believe it allows us to use larger, forced images whenever we have to display a certain aspect of an image, artwork, graph, chart (in this case, for example, a photo of the house, where we're discussing the entrance, but can't crop effectively to show only the entrance).

In the grand scheme of things, if/when it goes to the mainpage (and we still don't know that it will), someone will change the image sizes a gazillion times anyway. So, can we get a read on where everyone else stands on this?

Keep the current (forced) image sizes, or revert to unforced, user default size. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, mine isn’t a strict reading. I understand that the MoS does nothing more than make a recommendation in regards to image size.
The idea that visitors without accounts will want larger than default images is speculative; they could just as well want them to be the smaller default; we shouldn’t make decisions based on speculation. There is, however, a deliberate system installed to allow established users to see images at their preferred size. To circumvent user preferences and ignore a MoS recommendation seems entirely ill-advised. If folks want to see larger images, they can change their settings or click on the images. Further, information in the article should speak for itself. Forcing larger (and non-uniform, at that) size has quasi-OR implications; visual arts were but one of her interests, which makes the appropriateness of intentional and arbitrary extra emphasis questionable. Visitors should be free to apply their own judgement in evaluating the importance of both individual images and images as a group without our "coaching". ЭLСОВВОLД talk 18:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment

It reads like an obituary. I realise she was a great lady, but the article needs to town down in areas. Thoughts? Ceoil (talk) 12:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Any particular places that you noticed an issue? I'm too close to the article to notice those things right now but I'll be happy to try to fix it. Karanacs (talk) 13:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Karanacs, did Miss Ima have any critics or detractors that you're aware of?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
There wasn't anything mentioned in either of the books I read. However, one of them didn't even mention her bouts with depression, so that doesn't mean the criticism didn't exist. She's pretty much deified in Houston, and even when I was in school, she was always talked about with the same kind of tone people get for royalty. The only story I remember hearing that might be appropriate was that she really disliked one of the Texas governors (James E. Ferguson, I think). She often used little put-downs ("all of the Texas governors were great except one"), but nothing overt. If we think this is relevant to the article I'll see if I can track down the details. Karanacs (talk) 13:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Superlatives and a knowing tone sink it for me. No judgement on Hogg; who seems like a Lovely girl Ceoil (talk) 14:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually, forget it. This showed nothing in paticuar, maybe she was one of thoes annoying, but great, peoples who have no bad points. Drat. Ceoil (talk) 14:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
"In the 1920s, Hogg's brothers began to develop a new elite neighborhood, which they called River Oaks, on the outskirts of Houston". Hmm. Social context needs to be added for statements like this. Ceoil (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

If you want some dirt to spice up the article, she and Arthur Rubinstein apparently despised each other.[13]Ferrylodge (talk) 14:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Y Done I am dismal with Google books; for some reason, I can't make it go. Can someone add something about this? Perhaps under her character and disposition? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Pinging Nishkid64, who has the Bernhard book. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know how I should phrase this, so I will just paste the text from the book:

"Afterward there was a party with Rubinstein, who was then nearly ninety himself, as Ima Hogg's dinner partner. They smiley, they chatted, they posed for dozens of photographs. Privately, however, neither was much impressed by the other. Before the gala evening began, the irrepressible Rubinstein had confided to an associate: 'I had to sit next to Ima Hogg last year at an awards ceremony at Southwestern University. She's a tiresome old woman, isn't she?' Said Ima Hogg about Arthur Rubinstein, some while after the dinner party, 'What a pompous old man!' In 1975, when Vladimir Horowitz played at an Easter Sunday concert in Houston, Miss Ima appeared backstage afterwards with a small package. It was, she said, 'a little present for Mr. Horowitz. Such a nice man. Not at all like that Mr. Rubinstein.'" (Bernhard, pp. 5–6) Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 17:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Nishkid; I'll try to work something in now, but others will need to fix it when I'm done, since my prose stinks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
This would (arguably) be a nice addition to the Description and disposition section. I'm going to work on a proposed wording and will submit it for the committee's approval (unless someone gets to it first).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 17:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Oops, there was an edit conflict and I didn't see that SG was already working on adding this detail. I'll wait until you're done adding.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 17:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm done, pls fix without indignities LOL :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest the following wording (slightly tighter, with pithier quotation):
Though Bernard describes Hogg as a woman of "unfailing politeness",[13] the biographer suggests the philanthropist was not without adversaries. For instance, after attending a dinner party with Hogg in the 1970s, the elderly pianist Arthur Rubenstein characterized her as a “tiresome old woman.” Hogg, in turn, regarded the musician as “a pompous old man.” By contrast, Hogg said of Vladimir Horowitz, whom she met backstage at a 1975 concert in Houston, “Such a nice man. Not at all like that Mr. Rubinstein.'"[97]
In truth, it doesn't sound that much better than what you produced... Let me know what you think.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I think it's much better than what I wrote, as mine over relies on the direct quotes and gives TMI, leading to undue weight to that one issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:45, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I changed it. Further improvements are welcome (though I suppose that goes without saying on Wikipedia).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Y Done Beautiful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Ceoil, I'm wondering why you took out the bit about discovering her father dead in bed?[14] To me, that helps understand her a bit ... a woman who was burdened with a weird name by her father, watched her mother slowly die of TB over a number of years, discovered her father dead in bed ... ended up with depression and a commitment to mental health issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Sandy; I thought that was very relevant in explaining her later breakdown. Karanacs (talk) 16:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I missed the connection. When I cut it seemed like trival detail. Sorry about that. Karanacs, I think you have the guts of a fine article here, thats why im nit picking. Ceoil (talk) 21:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done I restored that bit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

"Misleading" statement?

My archivist contact just raised the following issue, which seems valid to me:

I’m uncomfortable with this sentence in the introduction because it seems misleading to me.
"Hogg was an avid art collector, owning works by Picasso, Klee, and Matisse, among others. She donated hundreds of these famed artworks to Houston's Museum of Fine Arts during the 1940s"
While she did donate hundreds of pieces throughout the 1940s, many of them were the Remingtons and the objects from the American southwest. The collection of works on paper that included Picasso, Klee and Matisse were donated in 1939, not in the 1940s. Regardless of the date discrepancy, this sentence makes it sound like she donated hundreds of Picassos, Klees and Matisses. The art collector section makes it clearer, though it might be wise to specify that those are ‘works on paper’. Not meaning to belittle their quality or value, but it is different from a collection of major paintings by the same artists.

--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I made these changes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Is that her only issue, or is she still going through it? If that's all, we're in good shape! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
That is the only specific issue she's brought up so far, but according to the Archives Director, our article is also being reviewed by "David B. Warren, who knew Ima Hogg personally, as well as the current director and curator of Bayou Bend, Bonnie Campbell and Michael K. Brown." Warren is actually mentioned in our article; their input should be interesting.
She also expanded upon two of the question you had earlier. There was a "rumor of an “attachment” to a German soldier who died in the war" but it's only a rumor and can't be reliably sourced. She also sounds inconclusive about the question of Jim Hogg's terms as district attorney:
"I am not 100% sure about the district attorney term. I suspect it was two two-year terms, though I don’t have evidence that he was elected a second time in 1882. We have some copies of biographical material in James Stephen Hogg. One is a listing of district attorneys in the old seventh district that shows several others at other times serving for just two years. (from History of Van Zandt County by W. S. Mills, copyright 1950)."
So I think the scenario of two-year terms was probably more likely.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 17:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
It absolutely doesn't surprise me that Texas government would do things that are forbidden by the state constitution. Thanks for your help with all of this!!!!! Karanacs (talk) 19:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Fat Man, your magical pen is wonderful ... thanks for all the help :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Who's going to fix the text? Not me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Y Done I think this is all addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. A simple but effective fix.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I can has a better lead image

Elcobbola and Mytwocents should be interested to know that the MFAH archivist is sending me a version of our lead image with a much higher resolution. Apparently, it a better representation of the museum's "lovely sepia-toned print." I'll upload it once I receive it, but I will need help with the copyright tag.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 17:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your effort. I'm looking forward to seeing the new image! Mytwocents (talk) 00:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Rating

Why is this a low-importance Houston article, but a mid-importance Texas article? Isn't she more important to Houston history than to overall Texas history? And can't the Projects raise it to an A-class ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Revised assessment for all three projects. Postoak (talk) 19:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Nice :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Rubinstein

I believe that the Rubinstein episode in the "Awards, recognition & legacy" section was the same episode as in the "Description and disposition" section. Maybe the former should be moved to the latter?Ferrylodge (talk) 20:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Do we know it's the same? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes it is the same. The description of Ima's 90th birthday party precedes the quote from the text I provided above. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 21:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
So, the gala event referred to in Disposition was her 90th birthday, to be more specific. But I still like the placement of the two stories as they are, in the separate sections; I'm not seeing the reason to move text so much as clarify each based on this info? Funny, two 90-year-olds calling each other names :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
There's only so much you can do at that age. :-) Don't quote me!!!Ferrylodge (talk) 21:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't know :-) It seems to me that we should merge this sentence from Awards, recognition ...
* For her 90th birthday the Symphony arranged a special concert featuring retired pianist Artur Rubinstein.
up in to the Disposition section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good.Ferrylodge (talk) 21:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, that fits in perfectly. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 21:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Merged; please fix and tweak as needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

April Fools main page

I've promoted this article to FA. It has been suggested be the main page FA for April Fools. Please post a suggested write-up for the main page here ASAP. As with last year's April 1 FA, for this one time of year, I don't care if the write up is totally different from the lead in, and I encourage you to be as outlandish or misleading as possible, provided it's all true. Raul654 (talk) 03:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Our old suggestions are gathered here; who's going to do this? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Ask DragonflySixtySeven for suggestions. I've always thought of him as being quite witty on IRC. And...congrats everyone, esp. Sandy and Karanacs, for their work on this article! Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 03:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Ditto!Ferrylodge (talk) 03:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
No time for congrats, folks; Raul needs a blurb. Karanacs usually takes weekends off, so someone who can write (in other words, not me :-) needs to get us started. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Older suggestions for blurb:

  • Suggestions from SWTPC6800
    • As a child, the young Hogg had a menagerie of barnyard animals.
    • Her brothers had normal names. She gave away their prized collections.
    • She overcame mental illness but lived the rest of her life as the First Lady of the state.
  • Suggestions from Karanacs
    • Ima Hogg was an ostrich jockey and circus emcee who later brought culture and class to Houston, Texas. As a child and young woman she was quite unlucky; one ship she was scheduled to board sank with no survivors, a second one docked in Germany the day after England declared war on that country. She nursed three family members, none of whom lived very long.
    • After suffering from a mental breakdown, Hogg established several institutions to study mental health. A compulsive hoarder, Hogg eventually gave large collections of artworks to various museums and donated several homes to the state of Texas.
      • I'm not comfortable with "compulsive hoarder" unless we have a source using that wording or diagnosing her with OCD or hoarding. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Contrary to popular belief, Ima did not have a sister named "Ura".
  • Suggestions from User:The Fat Man Who Never Came Back
    • Hogg once sweet-talked a burglar into returning purloined jewelry and told him to get a job.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

  • She was an ostrich-rider, and rode from Austin to Honolulu in 1893 where she met the Queen. As First Lady of Texas, she became a doctor in 1971. When asked her name, she was heard to say “I’m a hog”, which was the unfortunate truth.Ferrylodge (talk) 04:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
My first feeble pass, putting all above together

Ima Hogg was a Texas ostrich jockey and circus emcee who later brought culture and class to Houston, Texas. As a child, the young Hogg had a menagerie of barnyard animals. She was quite unlucky as a young woman; one ship she was scheduled to board sank with no survivors, a second one docked in Germany the day after England declared war on that country. She nursed three family members, none of whom lived very long, and chose 30 times not to marry. When asked her name, she was heard to say "I'm a hog". Contrary to popular belief, Ima did not have sisters named "Ura" and "Hoosa". Her three brothers had normal names; upon their deaths, she gave away their prized collections. Before her father struck black gold, he forced her to pry chewing gum from the furniture and door moldings of their home. Hogg once sweet-talked a burglar into returning purloined jewelry and told him to get a job. After suffering from a mental breakdown, Hogg established several institutions to study mental health, became an honorary doctor, and eventually gave large collections of artworks to various museums and donated several homes to the state of Texas. Hogg lived the rest of her life as the First Lady of Texas, and became so well known that other people were named in her honor: Ima Pigg, Ima Muskrat, Ima Nut, Ima Hooker, Ima Weiner, Ima Reck, Ima Pain and Ima Butt. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[removed my edit] –Outriggr § 08:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Pehaps we should add that "In her 90s, she became feisty and once exchanged geriatric insults with octogenarian concert pianist."--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 07:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Removed to re-do. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I should really get some sleep, but perhaps I can help re-tool this a bit further sometime on Sunday.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 08:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

FYI, if it has to be true, Ima's ship did not dock in Germany the day after war was declared (it was London where she arrived on that day). You can say she 'sailed for Germany and docked the day after England declared war' which is technically true. — Bellhalla (talk) 11:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
This is awesome; Sandy, you are doing a great job putting it all together!! Karanacs (talk) 13:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)-=-

Next pass:

Ima Hogg was an ostrich jockey and circus emcee who later brought culture and class to Houston, Texas. As a child, the young Hogg had a menagerie of barnyard animals and enjoyed sliding down banisters. Before black gold was found in Texas, the family lived in state-owned housing, where Hogg was charged with the housekeeping and her father forced her to pry chewing gum from the furniture. She was quite unlucky as a young woman; one ship she was scheduled to board sank with no survivors, and she sailed for Germany and docked the day after England declared war. She nursed three family members, none of whom lived very long, and she chose not to marry—thirty times. When asked her name, she was heard to say "I'm a hog", and Texas folklore held that she had sisters named "Ura" and "Hoosa". Her three brothers had more conventional names; to get even, upon their deaths, she gave away their prized collections. Hogg once sweet-talked a burglar into returning purloined jewelry and told him to get a job. She overcame depression, eventually established institutions to study mental health, became an honorary doctor, and donated her remaining family possessions to the general public and to the state. At her 90th birthday celebration, she became feisty and exchanged geriatric insults with an octogenarian concert pianist. Hogg became a legend as big as the State of Texas; her name lives on as a legacy—just ask Ima Pigg, Ima Nut, Ima Reck and Ima Pain—and she was known the rest of her life as the "First Lady of Texas". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Break

I, The Fat Man Who Never Came Back, have reworked the first part of this paragraph about her early life; I need to think some more about the second part. The results are not that great, so I won't be offended if you don't use any of it, but feel free to incorporate any bits that the committee finds amusing:
Ima Hogg was an ostrich jockey and circus emcee who brought culture and class to Houston, Texas. A child raised in government housing, young Ima frolicked among a backyard menagerie of raccoons and bears and enjoyed sliding down banisters. Her father, "Big Jim" Hogg, waged an onslaught against fun, shut down her money-making schemes, forced her to pry chewing gum from the furniture of their home and made her go to the opera. (He later struck black gold and [was run over by a train]). A tragic figure, Hogg nursed three family members, none of whom lived very long; she also chose not to marry—thirty times. When asked her name, she was heard to say "I'm a hog" (spoilsport historians deny the existence of sisters "Ura" and "Hoosa"). Her brothers, meanwhile, were blessed with conventional names and vast art collections, which Ima gave away for nothing upon their deaths. Hogg once sweet-talked a burglar into returning purloined jewelry and told him to get a job.....
Some thoughts:
  • Although more misleading, I think the first sentence flows slightly better as originally written, without the words "later" and the first "Texas"
  • I think the phrase "barnyard animals" understates the bizarre reality that the Hoggs owned raccoons, possums and bears, so I have omitted this term
  • While it was certainly unfortunate that Miss Ima cared for no less that 3 dying family members, she was very fortunate not to be aboard the sinking ship, so I left out the parts about the ship voyages out
  • The article mentions a "train injury" to Governer Hogg? Do the sources say anything specific about this. I wrote he "was run over by a train" but I suppose that's probably not true
  • Which siblings collected art? All of them, or just her brother Will?
  • I was having trouble making the latter part of her life an accomplishments "funny" (which is why I stopped at her early life), but I definitely think we should be more playful and misleading about the fact she became a "doctor" and we should, as Outriggr suggested, make it more explicit that Ima Pigg, Ima Hooker et al are real people.
That's all for now.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Nice so far; keep goin !! Can we include the easter-egg wikilinks (for example, to government housing being the Governor's mansion), and it sounds like her three family members chose not to marry 30 times. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Fixed.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
She donated art belonging to at least two of her brothers - Will and Mike. I'm not sure about the youngest (Tom was a bit of a wastrel). Sorry I'm not contributing more—I'm on toddler-chasing duty today. Karanacs (talk) 16:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Cool, Karanacs; let me know if you have the scoop on that train injury.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Nishkid has the Bernhard book; I pinged him. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I can't find more info, but according to Jim Hogg, the train accident is covered in the Hendrickson book, if anyone has it or knows how to search google books. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
So just saying her brothers (plural) covers it, and we don't need to worry much. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Done--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
The train accident for Jim Hogg: Riding from West Columbia to Houston on the train; minor collision with several boxcars; he and other passengers were thrown out of their seats; he injured his neck in the fall. This is from Bernhard, p. 48. If you need anything more from the Bernhard book, I'll try to check in this afternoon. — Bellhalla (talk) 17:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Fat Man, one other thing; I don't think he "struck oil", he speculated in oil (which was discovered in Texas in 1901), which is why my wording was " Before black gold was found in Texas, the family lived in state-owned housing, ... " SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Jim died years before oil was struck on their land. I'm not feeling punny today, but I bet you could work in something more about the land/oil: the kids tried to sell the land after Jim's death, but were prevented by a provision in his will that they keep it for 15 years - and oil was struck on the land 12 years later. Maralia (talk) 18:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't Mess with Texas

So we don't get into trouble with the second most populous state in the union, can you Texans verify that we're within acceptable bounds for the highly respected Miss Ima? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as a Texan, I'm not the least bit offended at all. — Bellhalla (talk) 18:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Neither am I, Ms. Hogg is a part of our history and we shouldn't be hiding that. -MBK004 18:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, no problems here with a native Houstonian :) Perhaps "who brought culture and class to Houston, Texas" should be "who helped bring culture and class to Houston, Texas". Just a thought. Postoak (talk) 19:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

So far

Consolidating where we are so far ...

Ima Hogg was an ostrich jockey and circus emcee who brought culture and class to Houston, Texas. A child raised in government housing, young Ima frolicked among a backyard menagerie of raccoons and bears and enjoyed sliding down banisters. Her father, "Big Jim" Hogg, waged an onslaught against fun, shut down her money-making schemes, forced her to pry chewing gum from the furniture of their home and made her go to the opera. (Big Jim was later thrown from his seat on a moving train and perished; after a vain attempt to sell their late father's land, the Hogg clan struck black gold there and became millionaires.) A tragic figure, Hogg nursed three family members, none of whom lived very long; she also chose not to marry—thirty times. When asked her name, she was heard to say "I'm a hog" (spoilsport historians deny the existence of sisters "Ura" and "Hoosa"). Her brothers, meanwhile, were blessed with conventional names and vast art collections, which Ima gave away for nothing upon their deaths. Hogg once sweet-talked a burglar into returning purloined jewelry and told him to get a job. She overcame depression, eventually established institutions to study mental health, became an honorary doctor, and donated her remaining family possessions to the general public and to the state. At her 90th birthday celebration, she became feisty and exchanged geriatric insults with an octogenarian concert pianist. Hogg became a legend as big as the State of Texas; her name lives on as a legacy—just ask Ima Pigg, Ima Nut, Ima Reck and Ima Pain, who have all appeared in the United States Census—and she was known the rest of her life as the "First Lady of Texas". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I attempted to simplify the line about Jim Hogg; the following wording eliminates some unnneeded details, while deviously implying that he was launched from a speeding train, to his death:
Big Jim was later thrown from his seat on a moving train and perished; after a vain attempt to sell their late father's land, the Hogg clan struck black gold there and became millionaires.
I eliminated the quotes from Big Jim since we already introduced him. The "millionaires" is a fair assumption give the Hogg kids' $225,000 monthly income.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I added it in above; is that what you intended? The "perished" made it sound immediate, so I added "from his injuries" ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Looks good except, I had intentionally omitted "from his injuries" because I find that it makes the reader think Big Jim had a very dramatic death, without telling the whole (less exciting) story.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
ah, ok, I'll take it out again, since Raul says it's OK to mislead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Well I'm indignant. What about, "She was an ostrich-rider, and rode from Austin to Honolulu to meet the help dethrone the Queen"?Ferrylodge (talk) 19:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for it; would you mind finessing that sort of claim somewhere into the opening line? Also, I I'm going to add something more abmiguous about her becoming a "doctor," along the lines one of your earlier suggestions.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I didn't know what to do with it because 1) we've already got Ostrich jockey, and 2) she didn't actually ride an Ostrich from Texas to Honolulu. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but she did ride to Honolulu (on a ship), so if you juxtapose the two statements, it makes for a suitably outlandish claim.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Show me the wording and I'll put it in. Remember who you're dealing with here (me :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

We also need an idea from Raul (or someone) about how we're doing on length. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I imagine we're running a bit long, so we may have to cut out some of the nice, innocuous, not-so-wacky stuff she did. We have a whole article to read about that stuff. :-) Will post a couple more copyedit ideas in a short while.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
"made her go to the opera" isn't that wacky and could shave a few words (but then, everyone in my house likes going to the opera :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
we can also shave ... forced her to pry chewing gum from the furniture of their home SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Next

Was waiting for The Fat Man, but he's MIA ... next ... shortening

Ima Hogg was a circus emcee and ostrich jockey who rode from Austin to Honolulu to meet the Queen and who helped bring culture and class to Houston, Texas. A child raised in government housing, young Ima frolicked among a backyard menagerie of raccoons and bears and enjoyed sliding down banisters. Her father, "Big Jim" Hogg, waged an onslaught against fun, shut down her money-making schemes and forced her to pry chewing gum from furniture. (Big Jim was later thrown from his seat on a moving train and perished; after a vain attempt to sell their late father's land, the Hogg clan struck black gold there and became millionaires.) A tragic figure, Hogg nursed three family members, none of whom lived very long; she also chose not to marry—thirty times. When asked her name, she was heard to say "I'm a hog" (spoilsport historians deny the existence of sisters "Ura" and "Hoosa"). Her brothers were blessed with conventional names and vast art collections, which Ima gave away for nothing upon their deaths. Hogg once sweet-talked a burglar into returning purloined jewelry and told him to get a job. She overcame depression, established institutions to study mental health, became an honorary doctor, and donated her remaining family possessions to the general public and to the state. At her 90th birthday celebration, she became feisty and exchanged geriatric insults with an octogenarian concert pianist. The legendary Hogg was known as the "First Lady of Texas", and her name lives on—just ask Ima Pigg, Ima Nut, Ima Reck and Ima Pain, who have appeared in the United States Census. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

We have no guarantee that Pigg, Nut, Reck, or Pain are linked to her. Give me a bit and I'll come up with a tidier version. DS (talk) 23:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's how I'd shorten it, along the lines suggested by the Fat Man:
Ima Hogg was a circus emcee who brought culture and class to Houston, Texas. Also a talented ostrich-jockey, she rode from Texas to Hawaii for a meeting with the Queen. Ms. Hogg was raised in government housing, and frolicked among a backyard menagerie of raccoons and bears. She enjoyed sliding down banisters, until an injured posterior convinced her otherwise. Her father, "Big Jim" Hogg, waged an onslaught against fun, shut down her various money-making schemes, and forced her to pry chewing gum from furniture. (Big Jim later perished in a train wreck, and the Hogg clan then struck black gold on land that Big Jim forbade them from selling.) A tragic figure, Ms. Hogg attracted a whopping thirty marriage proposals only to have them all fall through. When asked her name, she was heard to say "I'm a hog" (spoilsport historians deny the existence of sisters "Ura" and "Hoosa"). Hogg once sweet-talked a burglar into not only returning purloined jewelry but also going legit. Well into her nineties, she was feisty and exchanged geriatric insults with one of the world’s great pianists. The legendary Hogg was known as the "First Lady of Texas", and her name lives on—just ask Ima Pigg, Ima Nut, Ima Reck and Ima Pain, who have appeared in the United States Census.
P.S. Feel free to disregard!Ferrylodge (talk) 23:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
It needs to be true; that's veering too far off for me. He didn't perish in a train wreck (he died at home in bed), we don't know she had an injured posterior (do we?), he didn't forbid them from selling the land (15-year limit), we don't know that 30 marriage proposals "fell through", etc. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Ima Hogg was an ostrich rider from Texas. Miss Hogg was raised in government housing in Austin, and spent her childhood among raccoons, possums, and a bear. As an adult, Hogg rode with her father to visit the Queen. She subsequently found him dead in bed. In the aftermath of her father's death, her brother took her on vacation in New York City; in the aftermath of her brother's death, she gave away his most treasured possessions. She did the same upon the deaths of her other brothers, going so far as to give away the [[family home. At one point, Hogg, who openly admitted to being crazy, was sued by her neighbors who were worried about her immense collection of old junk. On her ninetieth birthday, Hogg insulted an elderly Jew. She claimed to have received thirty proposals of marriage, and to have rejected them all; she died single. DS (talk) 00:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
aftermath ... death ... aftermath ... death ... it's focusing a bit on the morbid, and I suspect the Texas folk would like to avoid calling her "crazy" (I would :-) and referring to "elderly Jews"; don't want to have "fallout" from the mainpage. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

All of you - Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 1, 2008 - go make chances here. I've left it unprotected for the time being. As Sandy just said, don't include any false information Raul654 (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It's protected, I can't edit. I'd removed the marriage proposals "fell through", remove the injured posterior, and note he forbade for 15 years. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
And other than those late-breaking changes, which are a bit far off the truth for me, I think it's perfect as is :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
(after a massive edit conflict), I drafted a new version based on Ferrylodge's edits that addresses the following points (some of which you already raisedd)
  • In general I like it very much--I'll miss the line about her brothers ,but I agree we did have to cut something, and I especially like your version of the 2nd sentence.
  • I am still partial to Outriggr's word choice of "she chose not to marry--thirty times" because it's more concise (and in IMO, still very finny)
  • I don't think we can say "Big Jim later perished in a train wreck;" we can subtly mislead and create ambiguity., but to outright say he died in the wreck is just false
  • I re-added the part about the tragic family deaths (along with a misleading hook about her becoming a "doctor,", allwithout sacrificing too much length
However, I will read over Dragonfly's version and go from there. Raul, do we have a target character limit?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 00:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Agree with all of the above; the penultimate version above (The Fat Man's) was closer to the truth while being funny. I also worry about the late addition of going legit, since we don't know that -- she told him to get a job. I prefer The Fat Man's sentence there. I can't edit there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
You're right that he perished FROM a train wreck, rather than IN a train wreck.. Also, recall he put nail in the banister, so she stopped sliding FOR FEAR of an injured posterior, rather than due to one.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Still drafting (sorry, I edit slowly), but please note that Ms. Hogg was hardly a "talented" ostrich jockey--she was thrown from the bird's back after her lone attempt, so I'll have to reword.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 01:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
She did fine until it was hit by a slingshot!Ferrylodge (talk) 01:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
bwahaha ... please don't say she was "crazy", though; think of those Texas manners. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Note that it was only one bear. "Raccoons, possums, and a bear." We don't know that she received thirty proposals, only that she said she did. (And saying that she claimed it is just so much nastier.) I also love the "subsequently, she found him dead in bed", which is exquisitely true and horrifically misleading, and doesn't need to mention the train wreck. DS (talk) 00:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Considering that we've got too much to say about her, and we're trying to cut, and considering how respected she was/is, I'd like to not say she was "crazy" or focus too much on death. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, Raul put it at User:Raul654/test; Fat Man, are you around and can you do the updates, so don't all get in each other's way? We need to get those late-breaking inaccuracies outta there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure I'll make a few edits now (nothing major, but addressing as many of the points above as possible), before I'm off to watch John Adams. I'll then ask for everyone's input.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 01:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I wish I had HBO for that.Ferrylodge (talk) 01:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Raul654/test

Fat Man, this is beautiful; an admin should move it over. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it looks great. I might could do without the word "unauthorized", but overall it's very well done, IMHO. Go enjoy Adams (John and Sam too).Ferrylodge (talk) 02:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, everyone else, please check it out. Like I said, it's not radically different, but I tried to make it slightly more truthful without sacrificing some of the outlandish implications. I agree with SG that Dragonfly's version is a tad macabre for a light-hearted joke (although I did reinstate the bit about nursing dying family members, along with the suggestion that she later became a "Doctor"), but I have used DS's suggested wording about the rejected marriage proposals and the lone bear.
Also, I think there's been some great suggested material about Ima Hogg's predilection for giving away stuff (houses, Picassos, furniture) for nothing; I think we could still definitely add a funny line or two about that. My current draft stands at approximately 1230 characters (the maximum is 1400). Please don't be shy about making further improvements!--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Did you count spaces? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It's now at 1021 characters not counting spaces (1230, with). I'd also appreciate anyone who could scour the current draft for grammar and awkward or unfunny wording.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I saw the word "once" in subsequent sentences, but don't know how to fix. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
This is beautiful! Thank you for putting back in the line about bringing culture to Houston- that was my favorite, although "storied ostrich jockey" is now a close second ;) Karanacs (talk) 02:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Can we change "unauthorized" to "enterprising"? "Unauthorized" sounds kind of incongruous.Ferrylodge (talk) 02:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I like it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
How about "unlicensed"?Ferrylodge (talk) 02:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I like enterprising better because of the money-making aspect. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I thought you meant you liked unauthorized. I'll switch to enterprising. I love being effectual.  :-)Ferrylodge (talk) 02:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

We have room to add back a sentence about giving stuff away, possibilities:

  • Her brothers were blessed with conventional names and vast art collections, which Ima gave away for nothing upon their deaths.
  • In the aftermath of the deaths of her brothers, who were blessed with conventional names, she gave away the family home.
  • Her brothers were blessed with conventional names and vast art collections; in the aftermath of their deaths, she gave away their prized collections and the family home.
  • Hogg was even sued by her neighbors who were worried about her immense collection of old junk.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

  • I checked word count, and the longer one fits. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Can we say that she was a mentally ill Democrat? By the way, her brothers still had to suffer with the last name. Anyway, I've got to say goodnight now. Don't mess it up!  :-)Ferrylodge (talk) 02:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
No, I don't think we can say that :-) I'll leave the sample sentences here and wait for The Fat Man to merge something, as they sorta disturb the flow; he's the Master. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Update

I've added[16] a modified version of the first bullet, about her brothers--and even found room to squeeze a line about "Ura" and "Hoosa" (at the peril of having my brain cannibalized by Mr. Dragonfly). We are now at just under 1400 characters, not counting the part that says

"(more...)
Recently featured: Military of the Democratic Republic of the Congo – December to Dismember (2006) – Free Association of German Trade Unions"

If that stuff counts, we're going to go over. I'm going to retire for the evening and will be unavailable until late tomorrow, so I won't be able to do anything else with the main page blurb. I leave this in the committee's capable hands.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, nice, I hope you awake with a brain. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
As do I. Once again, please don't be shy about revising/removing anything that's not funny or poorly worded. Love, The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Note

If the final version includes stuff about how silly her name is, or about other people with the first name "Ima" and how they deserve to be mocked also, I will come to your home, open your skull, and eat your brain. Yes, I feel that strongly about it. DS (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Duly noted. I'm not a fan of the TFA blurb making jabs at her name, but remember that much of her notability comes from her name. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 03:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
No, her notability comes from all the stuff she did. DS (talk) 03:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll email you my home address, but I hope you don't contract Kuru.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I cleaned up that article. Gross (mental note, talk to Graham about getting off of cricket and on to endashes). Anyway, I don't think the current mention of the naming issue is untasteful (especially when compared to a delicacy like brain). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
LOL. Now that would make a great featured article (or 4/1 DYK entry, if we wanted to go the gross-out route; I love the part about "pathologic bursts of laughter"--you can't make this stuff up).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
You're too easily tickled; you must spend more time in places like klazomania, echolalia, palilalia and coprolalia. Pathological laughter is lightweight. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Role in forming the Houston Symphony Orchestra

The lead says she "organized" the Houston Symphony. Someone left an inline comment asking if she had "established" it or "managed" it.

My response: I guess you could say she did both. However, I think "organized" is a more appropriate term to describe Ima's activities. Bernhard p. 57 says she persuaded her friend Julien Paul Blitz, a Belgian cellist, and other musicians for a trial concert. An ad for a June 21, 1913 concert in the Houston Post read "First Concert of Houston Symphony Orchestra at Majestic Theater at 5 p.m." She would go on to "organize" the rest of the orchestra's performances for the season. Ima also considered herself "a founder" of the Houston Symphony, not the only founder. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 03:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

That inline note was from Tony1, and he's not likely to check back; can you adjust it however you think best, considering you have the sources ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, as I mentioned above, I think "organized" works fine, but I guess it would be best to replace that with "established and managed". Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 03:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
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