Talk:Ilokano language

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Contents

[edit] Overhaul

Dagiti gayyem,

I am renovating the Ilokano language page. I took out stuff that had to with Ilokano culture. Perhaps a separate page for that will do? This page is about the Ilokano language and should deal with that. --Chris 8 July 2005 00:03 (UTC)

I agree. another page should be created about the Ilocano culture.

Or Ilokano people. There is one for French people, how about Ilokano people? I mean, the information is all good and I felt guilty getting rid of it. Good information shouldn't be discarded. But there are more appropriate places. --Chris 8 July 2005 07:51 (UTC)

hey, no worries. the information is still saved in the history. Ilokano culture or Ilokano people is fine with me. --443
I was just looking for such an article (my uncle is married to a beautiful Ilokano woman, and I have three handsome half-Ilokano cousins). By analogy with Spanish people, Japanese people, and so on, I first tried Ilocano people, and then Ilokano people, before I ended up at this article. It would be a very nice article to have, and as a new article, could be linked from the main page "did you know?" section. — Pekinensis 00:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Kayatko laeng a maammuan, appo a gagayyem, no sinnoda ti nangikkat kadagiti adu a datos a naikabil ditoy, nangruna ti maipapan iti pagsasao ken literatura, Ilokano authors, agraman dagiti dadduma nga external links. Nakigtotak itay kitaek daytoy a page ket nagadu met ti napukawen! Please, diyo koma met ikkaten ida ta mainugotda met a mairaman iti daytoy a page ti wikipedia ta maipapan la ngarud iti pagsasao a Samtoy. Agyamanak. No kayatdak a kontaken, please email me at rvaragon@gmail.com. --saluyot 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Aragon, siak ti nangikkat. Sori, basbassit laeng ti Ilokok; agsuratakto iti Inggles. The reason is that they would be better placed in a webpage concerning Ilokano literature. Other articles about languages are arranged in this way, Ilokano isn't any different. I welcome you to make an Ilokano literature and people page. --Chris 06:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Chris, agyamanak iti panangisublim kadagiti naikkat a paset. But anyway, this page should only be about the language and not much about the people and culture, and literature. I alredy started an Ilokano literature page and may I just lift some paragraphs here pertaining to Iloko literature? You can then edit them out afterwards, Chris. Thank you! --saluyot 03:17, 26 July 2005 (PHT)
Nagmayaten, manong Aragon no nangirugika ti sabali nga artikolo maipangep ti Ilokano literatura. I look forward to reading it. --443 13:56, 26 July 2005 (GMT)
Yes, by all means go ahead and lift the paragraphs and transfer. That was my original intention. Dios ti agngina iti cooperationyo. --Chris 07:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Agyamanak unay kadakayo, kakabsat. A "prototype" page on Ilokano literature is already started. I hope you can help me develop it by your contributions. Saluyot 07:33, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to Anonymous User

If you want to talk about the article, come here. To the talk. I am going to address your complaints.

Ilokano is uniform for the most part, but linguists recognize that there are two main dialect groups - northern and southern. Huh? Not true. I'm a Native Ilocano and this claim by linguist-wannabe Christopher Sundita is ignorant and false.

Joemaza 01:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC): Chris is published. Makes him a linguist to me. I have a degree in the field and unfortunately, I'm not published.

Yes, I am a wannabe linguist. A more appropriate name is student of linguistics. In any case, the information did not come from me but from an Ilokano expert - Dr. Carl Rubino, who is a linguist that specializing in Philippine languages and is the author of Ilokano books, articles, and a Ph.D. dissertation. And Ilokano is his native language. In his work he writes:

Two major dialects of Iloko exist, each with minor subdialects which minimally vary in lexicon and intonational patterns. The major dialects are usually categorized by the pronunciation of the pepet vowel /e/, which is pronounced as [ɛ] in the Northern dialects of Ilocos Norte and parts of Ilocos Sur, and as a high, central-back unrounded vowel [ɯ] in Abra, the southern parts of Ilocos Sur, La Union, Tarlac, and Pangasinan.

As you noted, there exceptions to the rule. I interpret this as saying that for the most part there are two Ilokano dialect groups. The northern dialects generally pronounce the "e" in one way, but there are some that pronounce it another way. There is no need for you to get so uptight about this, cool down please.

If you have any problems with this, please contact Dr. Rubino himself. --Chris 22:48, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

PS: Concerning your dislike of Ethnologue. An Ethnologue entry is linked to many languages' pages. Yes, it is outdated. But it shows important information.

Yeah, I was also going to say that Ilocano isn't uniform. I only know it from staying with friends in Ilocos Norte, but every time I learnt some Ilocano, I'd go the next village and they'd say, " Oh no, that's the pronunciation in Pasuquin; here we say it blah (including consonant changes, like ha an instead of sa an)." Indeed, my friend could cope with all the regional variations, but her brother had difficulties with people from 15 miles away.
I think the problem is in the summarising of Rubino's text: a common enough problem in writing precis! See what you make of my attempted fix. JackyR | Talk 12:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
PS Btw, I know it's cheeky of me even to have an opinion among Ilocano speakers, so apologies for that. But like I say, see what you think of the attempted fix. JackyR | Talk 12:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To the anonymous user

Why are you putting my name in the article? We don't sign contributions here at Wikipedia. --Chris 01:10, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is this vandalism?

I've seen this edit a couple of times now. I know nothing on the subject, so I'd like confirmation that this is vandalism of some kind, and not a good faith edit. I'm hoping the editors experienced with this page can explain for me :-) Dan100 (Talk) 20:56, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

There is a disgruntled native Ilokano speaker who is unhappy with my edits. I quote from research done on the language, but he's still unhappy about that. For a while he would insult me in the main article such as here - and that's just one example. Then he began signing my name ... I'm not sure what to do. Now he's just blanking out my edits. He is coming from AOL so it's hardly worth reporting him as a vandal since his IP is on a proxy. --Chris 23:31, 2 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Ilocano etiquette, superstitions

I placed this at lihi:Among people from the north, for example Ilocanos it is considered bad manners or rude to mention anything about animals , for example rats or pigs, when a pregnant woman is around for fear that the offspring may aquire features of the mentioned animal.

Could someone verify ? I experienced this but would like to ask if anyone else experienced the same thing.--Jondel 02:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd never heard that one before but the other part about the child resembling the food the mother craved for is a superstition among Ilocanos. --443 12:01, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
Isn't the child resembpling the craving common among to all, or at least in the Luzon area?--Jondel 00:25, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not too sure. Maybe someone else can confirm this.--443 02:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I'll be removing the Ilocanas part then and say that in some regions....--Jondel 00:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
From what I observe among Ilokano folks and other peoples like the Tagalogs, Bikolanos, etc., the same belief and tradition about "lihi" ("inaw" in Iloko) is the same. Conceiving Ilokano women until today are warned about the things they crave for because it would affect or resemble their child, for example, they are advised not to crave for dark or black things like the duhat fruit for their child might be dark-skinned. They are advised instead to crave for singkamas or labanos so their child will have fair complexion. This is true to all regions in the Philippines. --Saluyot 03:11, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ilokano pronouns

Hey, guys. Got a question about the pronouns chart. I'm from a town called San Esteban in Ilocos Sur and the pronouns that I'm familiar with and use in everyday conversations are slightly different from the ones in the chart. Take a look (the stresses may be incorrect):

  Absolutive Independent Absolutive Enclitic Ergative Oblique
1st person singular siák -ak -k(o) kaniák
1st person dual sitá -ta -ta kaniáta
2nd person singular siká -ka -m(o) kaniám
3rd person singular isú(na) - -na kaniána
1st person plural inclusive sitayó -tayo -tayo kaniatayó
1st person plural exclusive sikamí -kamí -mi kaniamí
2nd person plural sikayó -kayó -yo kaniayó
3rd person plural isúda -da -da kaniáda

Original chart:

  Absolutive Independent Absolutive Enclitic Ergative Oblique
1st person singular siák -ak -k(o) kaniák
1st person dual datá -ta -ta kadatá
2nd person singular siká -ka -m(o) kenká
3rd person singular isú(na) - -na kenkuána
1st person plural inclusive datayó -tayó -tayó kadatayó
1st person plural exclusive dakamí -kamí -mi kadakamí
2nd person plural dakayó -kayó -yo kadakayó
3rd person plural isúda -da -da kadakuáda

I'm just wondering if the ones on the article are the standard pronouns used in formal writing and the pronouns I'm familiar with are conversational only?

thanks.

--443 Tuesday, August 16, 2005 17:44 (UTC)

I think, the first chart is for casual conversations while second chart is for formal speech and writing. BTW, I'm from Bauang, La Union. -- bluemask (talk) 00:02, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Right. The first chart is for conversation in some parts of Ilokandia. The same is true with "haan" instead of "saan"; or "adiay" and "didiay" instead of "daydiay" or "idiay"; or of "atoy" or "aytoy" instead of "daytoy", "ayta" instead of "dayta" and so on. But the first chart and the examples I cited can be also used in writing, especially the dialogue in fiction, to preserve the local color of the setting of the story (place) and to present real conversation of characters. --Saluyot 00:56, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, it's dialectal. It's in Rubino's dictionary, too, along with sikam as a variant of sikami. I wonder if it was influenced by Pangasinan. By all means, go ahead and add those too. Anyway, here are Pangasinan's pronouns:
  Absolutive Independent Absolutive Enclitic Ergative Oblique
1st person singular siák ak -k(o) ed siak
1st person dual sikatá ita, ta -ta ed sikata
2nd person singular siká ka -m(o) ed sika
3rd person singular sikató - , -a to ed sikato
1st person plural inclusive sikatayó itayo, tayo -tayo ed sikatayo
1st person plural exclusive sikamí kamí mi ed sikami
2nd person plural sikayó kayó yo ed sikayo
3rd person plural sikara ira, ra da ed sikara
--Chris S. 06:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd seen the Pangasinan pronouns a few days ago and I have also been wondering if "Southern" Ilocano is influenced by Pangasinense. It's quite interesting. --443 08:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dialect groups

The article states that each of the main dialect groups has its own dialect. Surely that can be rewritten to make more sense; it seems circular to me. Chris the speller 20:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Number of Ilocano speakers in Hawaii

"According to a mainstream daily newspaper published in Honolulu, Hawaii, Ilocanos make up more than 90% of the Filipino population in the whole State of Hawaii, making Ilocano the top Filipino language in demand for public school language teachers."

I'm removing this statement from the article because it is unsourced and seemingly inaccurate. According to the 2000 census, 60,065 people in Hawaii speak Tagalog at home compared to 45,900 people who speak Ilocano at home[1]. While this does not necessarily mean that Ilocanos make up a minority of Hawaii's Filipino population, it does mean that Tagalog is a more dominant language and because this is an article about the Ilocano language, this statement's presence here is not necessary. 青い(Aoi) 11:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The claim that ilokanos comprise 90% of the filipino population in hawaii might be accurate. but the sad fact is that many of these ilokanos might not be using/speaking their own iloko language and preferring tagalog language instead. hence, the bigger number of tagalog speakers. Saluyot 13:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar

I've started an Ilocano Grammar page. If it (a grammar) is included in the "main" Ilocano page, then the article would just be too long. I've noticed a Tagalog Grammar (was that you Chris?). It would be a better way to go.

By all means create a separate page for the grammer but: a) please be consistent as to whether it has a "c" or a "k"! (redirects can be used from the other spelling) and b) chop the text out this article so that we do not have duplication. -- RHaworth 02:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I left the text in just in case there were some dissent... Also, I think maybe a redirect page might be necessary for all the permutations of the language name. Joemaza 19:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Joe, I made the Tagalog grammar page. And I'd love to see an Ilokano grammar page. Also, I would try to make this Ilokano language page be in line with the language template outlined in Wikipedia:WikiProject Language Template. Anyway, keep up the great work. Naimbag unay ngarud ti ar-aramidem ditoy, pare. --Chris S. 02:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
A la Wen, a! Kitaek man pay dayta a template a kunam, ngarud. Joemaza 19:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

There was a request listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves to move and rename this page to Ilocano language, on the grounds that the spelling with the 'c' is more common, and therefore preferable per our policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use common names of persons and things. I tried a Google test, and "Ilocano" indeed has about 10 times as many hits as "Ilokano", so based on that, and on the request, I'm completing the move. If there's anything being overlooked here, someone will say something presently, I'm sure. -GTBacchus(talk) 08:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the move. The k spelling is used in the publications that are written in the language itself. It is also used in linguistic research about the language. Before moving the page, ask here on the talk page so we can gauge consensus for it. Thanks. And just for reference, there are more hits for Filipinas (29.5 million) than there are for Pilipinas (1.4 million). However, Pilipinas is the official name of the Philippines. Hope that clears things up. --Chris S. 18:57, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I don't see you arguing that "Ilokano" is more common in English language sources. You seem to be claiming that it's more common in the language itself, and that it's more common in linguistic research. How is it more recognizable to the majority of English speakers, though? That's what our policy WP:NAME says we need to go by - not the "official" name, but the most commonly recognized one. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Just my $0.02... I've searched for any standardization of the English name. What I've found is Iloko [2] per ISO. I'm not saying that there should yet be another change, this time to Iloko, but that 'Ilokano seems to be consistent with the K spelling. Joemaza 22:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)