Talk:Ikuhiko Hata

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[edit] Denial of existence

I wrote that he denies the existence of "the use of sex slaves." Hata doesn't believe that comfort women were sex slaves

  • None of them was forcibly recruited.

The use of prostitutes is not a crime. The use of sex slaves is a crime. Hata denies the use of sex slaves, and he has caused plenty of controversy in and outside of Japan with his comments to warrant him to be "well known" for these ideas. Yaki-gaijin (talk) 03:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Why do you edit so eagerly to defame Hata? You assume that Hata is a nationalist, but that is far from the truth. In reality he is the most acclaimed historian studying Japanese war crimes in WW2. He published books of Nanking massacre and Marco Polo Bridge Incident, both of which are regarded as one the most prominent studies. He didn't deny Nanking Massacre, Sook Ching massacre in Singapore, brutality in the Philippines, Bonin Islands and other places. John W. Dower and Herbert P. Bix appreciated his work and thanked him for his collaboration in their book. Do you know they are the most famous American historian in the study of the modern Japanese history? They takes liberal attitudes and you can't blame them as revisionists.
You write about Hata's political activities, but he have never involved in such a non-academic movements. There's a room for argument in the study of comfort women and he just made academic publications. So how's about your political activities in Wikipedia? Please tell me why can you blame this academic historian. 59.190.130.200 (talk) 03:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I have recently been informed of Hata's reputation as a scholar on Japanese history, but I have never called him a nationalist. I also don't want to defame Hata. I just want to reveal his own motives/intentions/opinions through his own writings and actions. I realize that sometimes I am too bold, and can sometimes be biased, but no one is perfect, and hopefully I will get better the more edits I make. Yaki-gaijin (talk) 07:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Political activities and "Friday Weekly"

The Political activities section is sourced.

Friday Weekly is a usable source.

Discuss amongst yourselves :) Yaki-gaijin (talk) 22:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I feel it's impossible to make a consensus with Yaki-gaijin, who adhere to his beliefs, and I don't want to kill my time over absurd and futile disputes with him. If readers are interested in reliability of the "Friday Weekly", you can check its back volumes here. It's so far from academic journals.
Whatever Yaki-gaijin may defame Hata eagerly in here Wikipedia articles, his reputation does not change. Serious students and scholars in modern Japanese history already know Hata's reputation. They will easily notice low reliability of this article and your edits.
I hope Yaki-gaijin will continue his tireless duty in wikipedia to his meaningless goals. --220.219.92.222 (talk) 01:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what to make of Friday as a reliable source. On the one hand, it's an obvious publication. I don't think anyone denies that. On the other hand, is it a reliable source for the claims made? One work I came across by Adam Gamble and Prof. Takesato Watanabe had this to say about the weekly:

"Circulation: 520,000. Friday is a weekly pictorial newsmagazine focusing on social events, crime, accidents, entertainment and sports of national and international interest. Over 60% of the readers are in their 20's and 30's and 70% are male. Features pornography: yes." (A Public Betrayed: an Inside Look at Japanese Media Atrocities and Their Warnings to the West, Regenery Publishing, Inc.: Washington D.C., p. 76)

Is a publication that features pornography as respectable as an academic journal? I hesitate to think so. But that doesn't mean we can't include it in the article. I guess the real questions are (1) whether Friday has a transparent editorial structure and reputation for fact-checking and accuracy and (2) whether the claims made in the citations are potentially libelous and/or controversial. Personally, I don't know enough about the newsmagazine to formulate an informed opinion (yet) but -- then again -- I'm not sure how controversial the cited comments are either. The quotes seem pretty tame to me. Does anyone have any further thoughts on this issue? J Readings (talk) 04:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Now I noticed that J Readings does not know nothing about Japanese magazines. "Friday Weekly" is not related with a famous Japanese pornographic magazine "Friday".
What annoys me is that Yaki-gaijin edits only negative descriptions about this respected researcher, and it's because Yaki-gaijin wants to underestimate Hata's scientific researches which contradict his opinions. How's about his huge amount of works in other war crime studies? Where is descriptions about his collaborative researches with Bix and Dower, which are regarded as the most acclaimed achievements for this area of study? Many students and scholars already know that lousy articles are made by users who possesses politically oriented opinions in the English Wikipedia. They says here is just a bunch of rubbish despite its excellent ideas.220.219.92.222 (talk) 12:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Attacking my credibility is meaningless, anonymous user 220.219.92.222. Why don't you start by making an account here on Wikipedia and taking responsibility for your words? Yaki-gaijin (talk) 22:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
220.219.92.222. Calm down, please. There is no need for you to be insulting. It's true, I assumed that Friday and Friday Weekly were the same news magazine. If they are not, there is no harm done and thank you for the correction. As it is, I rarely read Friday on kiosk shelves. What I don't understand is this: If you think other reliable sources should be added to the article (e.g., academic journal sources), why not just add them or post them to the talk page for discussion? Either is highly encouraged by the project and something that I fully support. Regards, J Readings (talk) 23:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Lest 220.219.92.222 or anyone else thinks that I'm some kind of partisan troll, I wrote the following post on the comfort women talk page:

"What Flying tiger calls "a dangerous tendency towards 'relativism'," I would simply call a faithful implementation of one of Wikipedia's most endearing policies: WP:NPOV. Respecting that and other policies, I think, would make editing this article less problematic. As it is, all editors here seem to agree with Hermeneus' suggestions, so I am left wondering where the naiveté enters the picture. If we assume good faith, obviously we are not here to debate the history and politics of the comfort women controversy (that violates WP:NOT and WP:BATTLE). Nor are we here to promote any one agenda or turn Wikipedia into a partisan propaganda vehicle for or against the comfort women lobby (that violates WP:SOAP). On these, we all hopefully agree. So what is preventing us from documenting (that is the correct word to use) a balanced, non-judgmental overview of the controversy?

Regarding Ikuhiko Hata, his scholarship may not be a few editors' cup of tea (and his historical findings may irritate some), but his work remains highly respected among academics and even journalists. Writing a review for the Journal of International Affairs, Malcolm Kennedy considers Hata's The Hidden Crisis between Japan and the USSR: 1932-1934 to be an "absorbing study" and "enlightening to the general reader interested in Far Eastern history." Professor Shinobu Seizaburo (Nagoya University) praises Hata's A History of the Japanese-Chinese War (Nitchu-Senso-shi, macrons unavailable) stating that "from now on no study of the political history of the Showa era will be possible until [Hata's] book has first been read." David McNeill, writing in the Chronicle of Higher Education (April 27, 2007), not only considers Hata to be a historian but also the author of "seminal works" such as Nankin Jiken (The Nanjing Incident, Tokyo: Chuo Koron, 1986).

I can cite many other journalists and academics who consider Hata to be an expert in modern history, but I think I made my point: Hata is a notable academic whose views deserve to be documented and treated with respect, regardless of whether some may disagree with his conclusions on the comfort women controversy. But, again, the only real policy issue here is with undue weight being afforded to any one historian, not with whether he should be included. Best regards, J Readings (talk) 18:14, 24 November 2007 (UTC)"

Let's just all work together by getting back to what is a reliable source and what is not. A lot more can be added to this article; it's a work in progress. Best regards, J Readings (talk) 00:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Friday Weekly is thought to be a magazine under the effect of autocratic states such as mainland Chaina and North Korea. So articles dependent on quoted matters of Friday Weekly is thought to be one-sided arguments and not to be NPOV. Amazonfire (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Your edit summary states that you're removing OR. That means "original research." How can it be original research when it has a clear citation? Again, the issue here is not original research or POV. The issues on the table here are really two separate things: reliable sources and undue weight. Is Friday Weekly a reliable source? Second, how much weight should it have relative to other sources? J Readings (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Amazonfire: perhaps this would be a more useful question to ask you. Who specifically says that Friday Weekly is "thought to be a magazine under the effect of autocratic states such as mainland China and North Korea"? Put differently, can you please cite some third-party sources that indicate that Friday Weekly is just propaganda from China and North Korea? Also, you wrote that it was OR again. I don't think you fully understand what original research means yet. See this page for further details on original research. J Readings (talk) 22:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
It's a OR, because it contains his original translation, Japanese to English and his original interpretations. And I say again that the Friday Weekly is not a reliable source but a one-sided arguments. You can understand? Amazonfire (talk) 22:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Who specifically says that Friday Weekly is "thought to be a magazine under the effect of autocratic states such as mainland China and North Korea"??? If you can read Japanese, read this google[[1]]. VAW-Net, Friday Weekly, and North Korea have closer ties, and they are central players of comfort woman problem. Other players are Asahi Shinbun and mainland China as you know.Amazonfire (talk) 23:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


Ahhh, I understand what you're saying now. Thanks for the reply. However, Amazonfire, Japanese to English translations are not original research provided that the original Japanese text and citation is provided in the footnotes. See Non-English sources on Wikipedia's policy entitled Verifiability for further details. The policy reads, "Where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source as a quote in an article, there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation." If you think the translation is poor, we can discuss a better English translation. Also, it's probably true that it's a one-sided argument. Yes, I agree with you. But Wikipedia policy states that's fine. What we can do is to balance that out by providing more citations from academic journals, newspapers, etc. that say different things so that the reader has a full, balanced picture of the subject. J Readings (talk) 22:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
OK. I see. But as I said above, the articles dependent on quoted matters of Friday Weekly is thought to be one-sided arguments and not to be NPOV. It is not a reliable source. Because it is one of central player of this issue. The magazine is so to say a part of political body of this issue. Amazonfire (talk) 23:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the Google hits, I read the first few pages. Thanks for the links. Unfortunately, they appear to be all blogs and self-published sources. According to Wikipedia content guidelines and policies, we cannot use those links as reliable sources to question the reliability of Friday Weekly. The specific reason is that they themselves do not have an professional editorial structure with a good reputation for fact-checking. That is why Wikipedia states specifically on its reliable sources page that we must use newspapers (electronic copies are also fine), academic journals, and books. If you type the same Google keywords and then click on ニュース, we could have reviewed those third-party news sources to question the reliability of Friday Weekly. However, I did not get any hits that demonstrate that the major dailies link Friday Weekly to Chinese or North Korean propaganda. Did the Sankei Shimbun or Asahi Shimbun or Nikkei Shimbun or any of the major dailies publish articles that can be cited to demonstrate that Friday Weekly is not a reliable source for fact-checking and accuracy? I realize this is complicated, and I am not trying to be difficult, but there are very good reasons why these policies and content guidelines are in place. If blogs and self-published sources were used in this article to squash unflattering POV edits, then OTHER blogs and self-published sources could be used to do the same thing for other issues. It becomes a double-edge sword and Wikipedia would quickly become useless. J Readings (talk) 23:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
This is the last comment I'll make on this thread. To repeat the above, I agree with Amazonfire that Friday Weekly should not get as much space as academic journals and books on the subject because of undue weight concerns. That said, I disagree with him that it should be removed completely from the article until reliable third-party sources discount the news magazine as a whole. One suggestion for those parties who care: the reliable sources noticeboard (or click here)is an excellent place to arbitrate these kinds of issues in front of experienced editors and administrators. I suggest that either Yaki-gaijin or Amazonfire take the issue to them if either party feels strongly about this issue. Best regards, J Readings (talk) 23:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok. Beside the editing, I read your page and I know you can read Japanese, so I quote some Japanse Wikis, "バウネット"[2],"松井やより"[[3]], "女性国際戦犯法廷"[[4]], and read this part "安倍晋三は、2005年1月中旬に「女性国際戦犯法廷の検事として北朝鮮の代表者が2人入っていることと、その2人が北朝鮮の工作員と認定されて日本政府よりこれ以降入国ビザの発行を止められていること」を指摘して、「北朝鮮の工作活動が女性国際戦犯法廷に対してされていた」とする見方を示した。 ". Friday Weekly, "バウネット", and Asahi Shibun have close ties with "松井やより". This is a common knowledge in Japan so you can read many sources about it. They made "Confort Women problem" out of nowhere with Seiji Yoshida's evidence after it was denied by researchs. Thanks. Amazonfire (talk) 23:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how your theory of the "Confort Women problem" coming "out of nowhere" justifies your deletion of sourced material. Yaki-gaijin (talk) 11:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Posted "Shukan Kinyobi" on the reliable source noticeboard. Waiting for judgement. Yaki-gaijin (talk) 08:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's the website for the magazine. http://www.kinyobi.co.jp It seems pretty legit. I mean, they have a board of editors and everything. Though I didn't read the whole site thoroughly, it seems to be a normal magazine. I don't quite understand where you (Amazonfire) get the idea that this source is unreliable. Do you have any evidence that we can look into? Yaki-gaijin (talk) 04:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced material moved...

Since this article is about a living person, as pointed out in no uncertain terms at the top of this page, I have moved the major uncited paragraph here, until someone can add citations for every sentence. We simply cannot have uncited statements in reference to a living person.SiberioS (talk) 00:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Though generally seen to be a conservative/right-wing, he is also an outspoken critic of ultra nationalists. He called Hideki Tojo a traitor who deserve death penalty even if the Tokyo Trial did not take place.[citation needed] He also brought an end to the controversy regarding the Contest to kill 100 people using a sword by showing that atrocity did indeed take place.[citation needed] Ultranationalists and families of the accused had long denied the alleged contest as a fabrication and hoax, and that the two perpetrators were being falsely (and unjustly) accused. Hata discovered records in a local archive in the two perpetrators' home town that showed that the two had made many public speeches in elementary and high schools during the war openly admitting to doing the deed.[citation needed] He also refuted the claim made by some right wing pundits who claim that the Huanggutun Incident was a false-flag action by Comintern.[citation needed] He also criticised the Yushukan, a historical museum in the Yasukuni Shrine, stating that the place is toned with "excessive mix of historical view and ideology". (歴史観とか主義主張のトーンが露骨すぎ).[citation needed]