Talk:Ignatius of Antioch

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Note: I'm not comfortable about my identification of Philadelphia in this article with Amman; I seem to remember that there was a Philadelphia in Anatolia (which is mentioned in Book of Revelations), but so far there is no Wiki article about it, nor is it mentioned in the Philadelphia (disambiguation) page. (I'm adding this information from memory, without any of my references at hand.) -- llywrch 16:40 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

What's the deal with the fact that he wrote in run-on sentences? Mydotnet

I was wondering this too. Many ancient languages did not use literary/organizational things like sentences. Ashleyisachild
Ancient Greek did indeed have sentences. They just aren't organized the way modern English ones are. Translations (which will always be approximate at best) simply reflect this reality. --Preost 02:16, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with ASDamick. Ancient Greek is in all capital letters, no spaces and no periods or accent marks. But the grammar was more advanced than modern English: there are words and nouns and verbs ... and sentences.

I have translated Theophorus "vessel of God." would 'instrument of god" be more accurate in this context? I have added a good deal more and a Catholic Encyclopedia link. Better vet my additions. --Wetman 19:33, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Theophoros

Theophoros literally means "God-bearer." It comes from the word meaning "to carry." In Greek usage, something that is _____phoros is something that carries _____. For instance, a rassophore monk is a monk who wears a rasso (a kind of garment). In Orthodox Christian theology (the Church which still seems to pay the most attention to Ignatius), at least, there is a strong sense that Christians are all called to be bearers of God, i.e., theophoroi, bearing God inside of themselves.

Yes, I was looking for a sensible rendering of -phoros. So "vessel of God" is acceptable after all.--Wetman 19:51, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'd prefer "bearer of God," but "vessel of God" works, as well. Preost

[edit] Category:Catholic martyrs

I've now twice removed the anonymous addition of the Catholic martyrs category. The reason is that it's somewhat anachronistic to claim a 2nd century bishop of Antioch as a "Catholic martyr." Such a distinction as "Catholic" hadn't really taken by that point, and the almost necessary association that would be made by inclusion in such a category would be to the modern day Roman Catholic Church (especially since the category is a sub-category of Category:Roman Catholics), which Ignatius certainly would not have had a sense of himself belonging to, certainly not as something which is so clearly out of communion with the church he was bishop of.

If any such distinction is to be made, he would be an "Orthodox martyr" rather than "Catholic," especially since he tends to be much more highly regarded by Orthodox Christians than by Roman Catholic ones. A whole patriarchate of the Orthodox Church regards him as their patron. But of course when St. Ignatius was martyred, the two churches were still one. To claim him for either "side" is implicitly to deny that.

In any event, "Christian martyrs" is good enough, it seems to me. To claim Ignatius as a "Catholic," especially as some subset of "Roman Catholic," is to do injustice to the historical reality. —Preost talk contribs 20:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

But he is *honored* by the Catholic Church, whether he should be specifically seen as Roman Catholic or not... so maybe he fits into both Catholic, Orthodox, and Christian martyr? 75.68.77.207 17:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it should be put back. Ignatius of Antioch is on the Roman Catholic calendar as a martyr and saint. They do a Eucharist on his feast day, and the priest comes out wearing red. Are we going to remove everyone who lived before 1054? I think they should be included on both, along with a number of others. Carlo (talk) 18:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I just removed a rather long passage that appeared to be an apologia written by a Seventh-Day Adventist - a long, convoluted attempt to "prove" that Ignatius was not actually advocating Sunday worship, when he obviously was. Carlo 02:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just removed a slab of quotations that did nothing more than to confirm that, yes, Ignatius did use the word "bishop". -- llywrch 04:09, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disciple of apostles?

What is the basis for the following: "Ignatius, who also called himself Theophorus ("bearer of God"), was most likely a disciple of both Apostles Peter and John."? It sounds like christian guesswork and/or wishfull thinking 62.79.77.252 20:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Not sure why you think it's hard to believe: Peter and John were real people, and Ignatius was a first-century bishop of possibly the most important city in the early Christian Church, Antioch.
The idea that he was the disciple of John comes from the Martyrdom of Ignatius, which purports to have been written by those who accompanied him on his journey to Rome. He is also close to Polycarp, whom Irenaeus - disciple of Polycarp - says was a disciple of John.
The idea that he was a disciple of Peter I had not heard. I guess it comes from his being a bishop of a city that Peter was previously (one brief one removed) bishop of. It doesn't seem unlikely, but I don't see much solid to back it up, so I changed that part. I'll clean it up as soon as I figure out how to properly footnote. Carlo 00:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The ideas you mentioned came from Christians in the 4th & 5th century, some declared, one anonymous. Here is an extract from my website, http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/ignatius.html which I am trying to have posted as a link:
"The seven letters are considered quasi-canonical by the Catholic Church (& some other ones) and the historical justification for many of its doctrines. One of the reasons would be Ignatius' alleged acquaintance with Jesus' disciples, as first "revealed" centuries later by bishops John Chrysostom (347-407) & Theodoret (393-457).
From the "Catholic Encyclopedia, St. Ignatius of Antioch":
"St. John Chrysostom lays special emphasis on the honor conferred upon the martyr in receiving his episcopal consecration at the hands of the Apostles themselves ("Hom. in St. Ig.", IV. 587).
Natalis Alexander quotes Theodoret to the same effect (III, xii, art. xvi, p. 53)."
"Theodoret ("Dial. Immutab.", I, iv, 33a, Paris, 1642) is the authority for the statement that St. Peter appointed Ignatius to the See of Antioch"
And from the 'Martyrium Ignatii', ch.1:
"Ignatius, the disciple of John the apostle, a man in all respects of an apostolic character""
This Wikipedia page is unfortunatly one-sided.Bernard

[edit] Proposed link

I have been instructed to post my website: http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/ignatius.html for review. Please, if any reader think it is worth to be posted, do so. Bernard Muller

[edit] Page needs work I think.

"He died as a martyr in the arena." Despite exhaustive searching, admittedly with limited resources, I am unable to find any evidence that he died at Rome.

NBeddoe 22:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

In answer to your question Eusebius the historian, referenced in the article, apparently wrote that he had evidence Ignatius "became food for wild animals" in Rome. It is believed from Eusebius that this occurred during the reign of Trajan.

The rest of the events in Rome seem to be from a document of questionable authenticity called "The Martyrdom of Ignatius", discussed in the article under "Martyrium Ignatii" - the Latin title. A translation of that document can be found online here from the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911 edition: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0123.htm Chrisbak 03:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this article is taking a position which is too supportive of biased historians. Outside of Eusebius we have no reason to tie the Ignatius of the letters to being a Bishop. I think we need at least a paragraph or two addressing the issue what we actually know very little about him other than that he wrote 7 letters unless we consider 4th century sources reliable. jbolden1517Talk 15:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

That's not accurate. In the Epistle to the Romans, Chapter II, he refers to himself as the Bishop of Syria. Carlo (talk) 00:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
The seven Ignatian letters are not necessarily by one author - critical analysis by Bernard Muller. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 16:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
And who is Bernard Muller? Carlo (talk) 23:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lord's Day

In regards to the quote in the article following the line "St. Ignatius is claimed to be the first known Christian writer to argue in favor of Christianity's replacement of the Sabbath with the Lord's Day:" I believe I should mention that some scholars have considered that rather than "Lord's Day" another possible translation would be "Lord's life", which is important as that changes a key part of the passage. I'm uncertain as to how to work this into the article, however. Lord Seth (talk) 23:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)