User talk:Icsunonove
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[edit] South-Tyrolian toponymy
Sorry, I am not an expert in this, so I cannot give details. One example that I am personally aware of is the village of Rio Bianco, a translation of the German Weissenbach.
There is a list of traditional Italian names for places in the Province of Bolzano compiled by Professor Fabrizio Bartaletti, Univ. of Genoa. Examples are Appiano, Brennero, Brunico, Dobbiaco, Fortezza. Some of the traditional names were different from the ones used today:
Corné became Cornedo, Nova Tedesca became Nova Ponente, Sterzen became Vipiteno, Terlá became Terlano, Oltemo became Ultimo, Nova became Nova Levante. See: http://www.unionfs.com/12d2449.html
I did not find the complete list on the Internet. The list includes only 100 names. I assume that the names not on the list are not traditional but made up by Tolomei.
I would suggest that you find and consult the following scholarly articles on this subject:
F. BARTALETTI, Geografia, toponomastica e identità culturale: il caso del Sudtirolo, in “Miscellanea di storia delle esplorazioni XXVII”, Genova. 20021, pp. 271-314.
F. BARTALETTI, Un atto di coraggio per l’Italia: abolire i toponimi italiani introdotti dal fascismo in Alto Adige- Südtirol, in “Studi geografici in onore di Domenico Rocco” (a cura di F. Citarella), Napoli, Istituto di Geografia dell’Università di Genova, Vol. II, 1994, pp. 619-630.
If you can find these publications, please let me know what they contain.
Note that there have been similar renaming procedures in other places such as the renaming of Italian place names in France[1] or Slavic or Turkish place names in Greece (see Ptolemaida, Slavic toponyms for Greek places). Andreas (T) 19:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, you don't need to tell me there have been renaming of places around the World. :-) I've looked into some references. In some ways I'm pointing out that this grand renaming of places in BZ is not really the case. Some people like to claim that all the Italic names used in BZ are inventions, but in fact it is a very small amount. Even Nova Ponente was known as Nova much earlier than it was every known as Welschnofen (a German renaming, by the way :). I think in some cases instead you had names of towns converted from the dolomite Latin to national Italian: Bolzan -> Bolzano. Icsunonove 19:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- The Latin Bauzanum gave rise to Bulsan, Bolzano, Bozen. Many place names in BZ are of Ladin origin, and were italianized in the same way as place names in other areas of non-Tuscan language. I have no examples at hand, but perhaps looking at the toponymi in Val di Non would be interesting. I would think that place names ending in -o such as Taio would be different in Nones, a language closely related to Ladin. (see also my talk page) Andreas (T) 20:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Alive, and quite well
Hey, yes, I've been away, and will reply to you tomorrow when it's, well, less late for me. I took time to vote on the Isarco poll, because I discovered I missed the one for the Autonomous Province of TN and thought it was a shame.
Ah, I see Andreas' question on the name "Tirolo" before 1815: it was indeed colloquially used, although not loved by everyone. But for instance, you could find letters from John Eugene Leitensdorfer (an officer under gen. Eaton in the early XIX century), a man from Pergine who chose that pseudonym when he moved to Louisiana, addressing his letters home to "Tirolo, Italia" - both a recognition of the regional name no doubt he used in his youth and of the local prevailing nation. Conversely, Alto Adige was well present before 1919 - after all, Tolomei's "Archivio" circulated since 1906, if I remember well. It is really complex, as all our beloved area is. Feel free to point this out to AndreasJS, more imput would surely be fine. Cheers, Tridentinus 03:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Introduction to the Prontuario
You are good in Italian, would you like to summarize the Introduction to the Prontuario? This would be useful in order to counter misconceptions about the Italian names in BZ. Here is the link: http://xoomer.alice.it/tribunale/prontuario.pdf
Skip Mori's preface and go to page 1 after page xiv. Andreas (T) 16:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Languages-dialects
In fact, there is no definition. There is a jokeful definition that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. Normally one would say things like "Bavarian is a dialect of German". For linguists, this is more or less nonsense. For example, Limburgish is spoken in the Netherlands, but it is more or less identical to the local language of Aachen. There are also political misuses of the terms, such as Macedonian is a dialect of Bulgarian.
I found the Nones toponyms interesting. It brings me back to the question it an -o ending in an Italian toponym is authentic (stemming from a Latin -um). For Nones place names (and for all other place names in regions of Italy with -o-less local language), the question is since when toponyms with an -o have been used. In TN, Tuscan has been used as the language of administration for a long time (since when? Did Tuscan succeed Latin immediately?) The -o names are in this sense traditional. This is relevant because in BZ, Tuscan has not been used as the language of administration before 1919. Therefore, place names ending in -o are (in my opinion) a-posteriori adaptations made by Tolomei (apart from well-known places such as Bolzano or Merano). Andreas (T) 22:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Isarco
I replied to your inquiry on my talk page. Pasquale 16:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Staying cool
Well thanks, but I suppose staying cool is really a lot easier when you're not as much personally invested in a topic and only provide an outside opinion to help get things going. I assume to some of you on both sides of the fence it may seem like you're wallpapering fog, but I'm also sure it's a question of giving it your best shot and be extra civil and mature, and not e.g. comment on the other side, much like Lar sensibly suggested. —AldeBaer 22:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Re: hey
I think he thinks that the topic ban proposed by Future Perfect at Sunrise on the ANI board was something "official", and that you implicitly accepted it.--Supparluca 10:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Re: look at this
I actually find this more worrying.--Supparluca 19:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know, that stuff gets to be kind of laughable after awhile. Icsunonove (talk) 19:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Re: your counter
No, you can use {{Template:User contrib}}, or {{User:Supparluca/User contributions}}, or you can create a subpage of your user page, write the template there and use that (I just cutted and pasted the code at Template:User contrib for my subpage; note that it is useless... you can just use the common template).--Supparluca 21:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] hello
Hello, I am a Chinese, my English is not very good, so please locations!--Hwaia A. Wong Talk —Preceding comment was added at 04:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] South er, bolzano er adige er
It looks like the CfD will be a keep. I have no problem with the article content - as you say it explains the issues well. If the article title seemed stable, I would want the category to match as usual. Personally I don't like the hybrid nature of the current one - at least we have redirects for these problems. But if there seemed to be a real concensus, of course I would follow. Johnbod 18:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Thank you
For remaining professional. We gain more ground working together and respecting each other's opinions, even when they differ.
The only thing I'll say counter is that it really isn't a "German" thing at all. Remember first and foremost that a lot of the English language is Germanic-based... the root language of English is Germanic. So a lot of the translations into English may sound Germanic - especially when you take into the account the region we are discussing. Yes, there is Italian - and you have definitely pointed out the Ladin base and origins (consider that a lot of Ladin sounds Germanic - what is the root?). But the majority of the region is still German, and that means that the strongest influence for translation would be German-based. Thus, the official province website states "Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol" based on their translation. It doesn't make it incorrect if it isn't matching the Italian government (remember they are autonomous in nature and have some semblance of flexibility), nor is it weighing soley in the hands of a web developer (I know the CEO of the company I work for regularly reviews the various pages of our website). It just is - and I'm sure that they would have been corrected by now if their actions were withdrawn from a governmental representation.
Anyway - thanks again. Rarelibra 04:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
- By your statement, I can see you define the roots of English a bit too literally. Just because it is classified as a Germanic language, doesn't mean its roots are in the German language! :) Do you know that 60-70% of the vocabulary (the true heart of any language) of English is derived from the Latin/Romance languages? So, your statement about translation into English may sound Germanic argument doesn't make a bit of sense. I know both Italian and German, and I can tell you that there is much more of a relationship between the former (vocab. and grammar wise) than the latter. Anyway, and again, you give too much credit to that BZ website. If it was under such strong review there wouldn't have been so many inconsistencies which have never been updated. They don't even reply to multiple e-mails from various parties asking for clarification. I think you e-mailed them, did they ever reply? Doubt it. :-) Lastly, you assume too much by the nature of "Autonomous" in Italy. It is not in the same league as places we typically hear about such as Tibet, Kurdistan, etc. Even with the autonomy of certain regions in Italy, there is still less self-governance in those relationships than what we have in our own US Federal-State structure. In many ways this is part of the slow push to a Federal structure that has long been desired in Italy. If you think by crossing the border from Verona to Trento you are going to feel like entering some "autonomous republic".. you are in for a surprise. :-) Icsunonove (talk) 23:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] WP:WLA
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(♠Taifarious1♠) 02:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Please see meta:Talk:Stewards/elections_2007#Votes_to_remove
You need to crosslink your account. You can do this by doing an edit here (to your user page, perhaps) saying you have an account on Meta named Icsunonove, and then on Meta, giving the diff of the edit here by the account on en saying it is you on en. Or you can if you want set up a fullblown WikiMatrix like my userpage on Meta references. Thanks again for your support, hope this is not too much trouble. ++Lar: t/c 03:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] WikiProject Germany Invitation
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--Zeitgespenst (talk) 16:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Reply
Good to hear from you. Nothing new underneath the sky. I've tried to re-start the discussion on the title of Province of Bolzano-Bozen, but that's all. --Checco (talk) 20:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Scouting
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