Talk:Ichiro Suzuki

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Contents

[edit] Criticism of "rookie" status

Some sportswriters criticized his official "rookie" status, saying that his years of experience in the Japanese "major leagues" gave him an unfair advantage over other rookie players who had little or no prior major league experience.

I don't know if I actually object to this (the statement is true, I suppose), or if I just hate seeing it. Other winners include: Jackie Robinson (1947; the first RotY award, also known as the Jackie Robinson Award), Don Newcombe (1949), Sam Jethroe (1950), Willie Mays (1951), Joe Black (1952), and Jim Gilliam (1953) all had years of Negro League experience, and Hideo Nomo (1995) and Kazuhiro Sasaki (2000) were both veterans of the Japanese league. In Major League Baseball, "rookie" refers *only* to MLB experience, and someone with experience in other leagues winning the MLB RotY award isn't a new precedent.

Delete? Counter? Cite? Demong 02:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is this true?

Continuing the custom he began in Japan, he uses his given name on the back of his uniform, becoming the first and so far only player in Major League Baseball to do so.

Is that true? I'm sure I've seen it before. I have no idea why I would remember this, but I'm almost certain Vida Blue had his first name on his jersey. Adam Bishop 17:38, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My understanding of this was that he is a pitchman for Nissan in Japan, and since Suzuki is a competitor of Nissan, he decided to play under his given name only. John
No, it was because of the number of Suzukis on his NPB team. Suzuki is as common a surname in Japan as Brown or Jones is here.
I know he's the only player whom MLB has approved using his first name. It's possible Vida wore his first name (as a Charlie Finley stunt), but I don't think it was for very long. I know Finley tried to get Blue to change his first name to True.

Wnalyd 05:40, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I totally agree with Wnalyd.Hrkoew 10:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This article lists a number of players, including Blue, who have had their first name, nickname, hometown, etc. on their back. (The corpulent John Kruk used to say he had his picture on his back; he was number 8.)

Can we document the MLB approval for "Ichiro"? Rdikeman 13:09, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Vida Blue had his firt name on is back when playing for the Giants

Deleted some redundant words for clarity

[edit] Ichiro

I don't know a lot about baseball, but is it really a good idea to make "Ichiro" redirect here? A simple search for the word would reveal that it is not a particularly rare Japanese male given name (Ichirō Hatoyama, for example)...elvenscout742 13:49, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I've turned the redirect into a disambiguation page. —Lowellian (reply) 04:40, August 31, 2005 (UTC)


The childhood section seems ridiculous. Is there any significance to it?

I can see how; it explains his rigorous practice schedule and how he got to be the ballplayer he is. 69.4.200.122 00:18, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poor grammar and not completely unbiased

"Because of the incorrect interpretation ("I want to beat South Korea so badly, that the South Koreans won't want to play Japan for another 30 years." [1]), the Korean media criticized Ichiro for reportedly saying before the tournament."

This sentance(s) really needs some grammar and syntax work. Also the citation (and other sources) offer no support for the claim that the statement was interpreted incorrectly. I have rephrased the statement to give it a more neutral POV and to reflect the citation better.

Kyobonitsuki 09:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It was an incorrect interpretation. ESPN did a terrible job with translations. If you've seen the video he's joking about things with his tongue in cheek.

「戦った相手が『向こう３０年は日本に手は出せないな』という感じで勝ちたいと思う」

Roughly it translates to...

"I would like to win in ways to make our opponents think, 'we got 30 years before we catch up to Japan'."

And he said that while laughing.

[edit] Ichiro's alleged hitting problems in 2006

I removed the whole section:

==2006 Hitting Problems== After starting the season 1-5 (.200), Ichiro rebounded and was batting .353 after the first 4 games of the season. However, Ichiro struggled and was batting .177 by April 18th. He finished April with a .287 average. His average dipped to .260 on May 5th, but two 4 hit games in May and 1 in April brought his average up to .327 by May 28th. It has turned out (by May 28th) to be an up and down season for Ichiro.

The problem with this is that having a section gives the idea that there is something particularly bad about this season; however, if you look at his stats (which typically go up and down as a season progresses anyway), he is actually doing pretty well, and well en-route to finishing with stats just as good as his rookie year and certainly 2005. Currently his .335 BA is 5th in the AL, and his OBP is also good.

The section also contains and encourages speculation. After the season is over and we reflect on his year, it may turn out that his performance was his worst so far, in which case we can make a note of it, but certainly not an entire section unless he turns out to really stink the rest of the year. --C S (Talk) 12:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this. No need to guess at history before it unfolds. Saw another Ichiro record on ESPN.com today (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6615) where it reads "Player News from ROTOWIRE --

Jul. 26 -- News: Suzuki recorded his 1,275th career hit Tuesday, the most hits in any six-year period of anyone in major league history." This is not one of his most notable records, maybe it deserves inclusion?

I saw an article in the Seattle PI on that and Ichiro commented that breaking Wade Boggs record (prior record holder for most hits in six consecutive years in MLB) "is a very big deal"[1]. Now, of course, baseball is infamous for many meaningless records, but this one made the news and Ichiro, who is not in the habit of exaggerating his accomplishments, considers it important. So I think it should be ok to include. --C S (Talk) 21:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Right field or center field?

Which is it? The opening paragraph says center field but the box at the right says right field. I didn't realize he switched from right to center late in the season. Is that a permanent move?

He switched so Snelling could play right field. It appears that Ichiro is ok with playing center next year and Hargrove wants it too [2]. But who knows? It will depend on what the team will look like. I would say it's safe to say center for now, but I wouldn't say it's really official until next year. --C S (Talk) 18:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I've switch the info in the infobox and categories from "right fielder" to "center fielder" as for a while now, all the articles I read about Mariners has him mentioned as playing center for the coming season. Also, the roster moves and acquisitions pretty much cement this. --C S (Talk) 22:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Another person has changed it back to right fielder twice. This is ridiculous. Anybody that actually follows the Mariners would know he is the center fielder. Any sports article nowadays that mentions Ichiro's position describes him as center fielder, for example, [3] [4]. Jose Guillen is the right fielder now. --C S (Talk) 16:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll stop with one more ref [5]. This one has several paragraphs talking about Ibanez and Guillen having to adjust to Ichiro in center field. --C S (Talk) 09:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I guess I can't stop as an anonymous editor insists on changing the position again to RF. This time s/he cites Ichiro's ESPN profile as evidence. Obviously, to anybody that has read anything I wrote above, the clear conclusion is that the profile is outdated. Nonetheless, in the hope that the anon actually is reading the talk page, let me point out that the Seattle Mariners official MLB site has Ichiro listed as CF in his profile. The evidence is clear; one outdated ESPN profile cannot change that. Additionally, given the lack of discussion, I am going to revert all such changes, as continuing to change valid information without discussion can only be regarded as an effort to compromise Wikipedia, i.e. vandalism. --C S (Talk) 18:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ichiro's personal scandals

The Whiting book also documents the scandal reported widely in the Japanese press (but almost completely ignored in the U.S.) of Ichiro being secretly recorded "cavorting" with a woman-other-than-his-wife in a hotel room in San Francisco several years ago. It was a major story in Japan and was reportedly a major factor in why Ichiro's relationship with the media, especially the Japanese media, isn't so harmonious. Shouldn't mention of this be in the article? Cla68 02:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably. But there isn't much about his personal life, so it's possible that this one incident could be given undue weight. I would suggest writing more about him first, before mentioning any such scandals. --C S (Talk) 19:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The incident was very widely reported on in Japan, and has significantly affected Ichiro's relationship with the media, which, in turn, affects his public image, which is significant because he's a celebrity. If I get ahold of the Whiting book that talks about it, I may add a mention of it to the article while keeping in mind the undue weight rule. Cla68 03:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fangraphs

This is part of a larger discussion, which I do not mean to start here, but just as an fyi (since I have been asked to explain) and not as a request for action the reason that I have sought to have Fangraphs included here is that it has unique categories of information. Specifically, Fangraphs, uniquely, has hitters' 1B, BB%, K%, BB/K, ISO, BABIP, RC, RC/27, GB/FB, GB%, FB%, IFFB%, HR/FB, IFH%, BUH%, GB, FB, LD, IFFB, Balls, Strikes, Pitches, IFH, BU, BUH, WPA, -WPA, +WPA, BRAA, REW, pLI, phLI, PH, WPA.LI, and Clutch. Fangraphs also provides some spring training stats, and Bill James, CHONE, Marcel, and ZIPS projections. It has a game log, play log, compare players feature, news articles, and unique graphical presentations. --Epeefleche 07:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statistics in Japan

The Statistics in Japan section was deleted and then reverted; before there are any more I just wanted to comment: I agree with the revert and think it should stand. An encyclopedia article about a baseball player who first played professionally in Japan, not to mention played there for nine seasons (over half his career so far), should include statistics from that part of his career. Removing them is very US-chauvinist. — Demong talk 07:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

  • This has nothing to do with being "chauvinistic" (which doesn't apply here). Statistics are mentioned specifically in WP:EL. I created the template for Japanbaseball, so i can confirm that the site does indeed have that information. //Tecmobowl 11:11, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Chauvinism means "zealous or excessive patriotism"; it is not synonymous with male-chauvinism. What I meant is that this is an article about Ichiro, not about Ichiro in America.
However, I see your point now. His US statistics are not listed either. If Neier feels that the Japanese awards should be in the article, he should integrate them into the Career in Japan section. — Demong talk 21:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I reverted it, and did so again, because the external linked site does not have the information which was deleted. Namely, there is nothing about his gold gloves, best-nine, or other awards. Neier 13:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Just to clarify, I did understand the comment regarding chauvinism and it had nothing to do with my edits. Quite simply, statistics for athletes, when used in this manner, do not belong in wiki. His japanese awards and career are VERY important and deserve proper attention in the content portions of the article. //Tecmobowl 15:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Tecmo Banned Indefinitely. FYI--Tecmo has been banned indefinitely for repeated violations of Wiki policy.--Epeefleche 01:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted your striking through of his remarks. This is not accepted practice. The reasons for banning are not related to this article or this discussion. In any case, Tecmobowl was making some good points here and the whole matter was resolved amicably, so there was no need to bring this up here. --C S (Talk) 09:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pagemove Ichiro Suzuki -> Ichiro (baseball player)

I don't agree with this change at all. His name is Ichiro Suzuki. It's a common name, but there are no articles on anyone else named Ichiro Suzuki, and if there were it would make more sense for the article to be named Ichiro Suzuki (baseball player). The edit summary says "Because he is normally referred to as Ichiro", which I don't think is a good reason. Should the Louis Armstrong article be renamed Satchmo? Anyone have a compelling reason why I shouldn't change it back? — Demong talk 21:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with it either. The only rationale for keeping this page at Ichiro (baseball player) is that this is the common name for him. While that is true, perhaps a comparison is helpful here. "A-Rod" is also the common name for Alex Rodriguez, but A-Rod redirects to Alex Rodriguez. A good reason for not having these players nicknames used as the article name and location is that they are just as commonly known by their legal names. Most media like newspapers, magazines, and online media (e.g. ESPN.com) will in fact often refer to Ichiro as "Ichiro Suzuki" or "Suzuki" (e.g. [6] [7]) and A-Rod as "Alex Rodriguez" or "Rodriguez" (e.g. [[8]]). There are some exceptional cases that have their articles at their nicknames, e.g. Jackie Robinson and Babe Ruth. But the reason these are exceptions is that they are always referred to this way. Many people don't even know Babe Ruth's real name (it's not too hard to guess Jackie Robinson's name).
One thing to keep in mind is that we are an encyclopedia. Sure, fans like to use nicknames, and sportswriters will often follow suit. But there should be a very compelling reason to name an article like a fan would, rather than using the official name. Such a compelling reason would be, as in the case of Babe Ruth, to avoid confusion to the reader and save editors trouble with linking to the article. Such a reason does not exist here. Nobody will be confused, and having worked on baseball articles here and observed what goes on, I don't think anybody finds it hard to keep in mind that links should go to Alex Rodriguez or Ichiro Suzuki. --C S (Talk) 03:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether the change was good or bad, but it should have at least been discussed first. I mean, I'm all for being bold. However, a consensus on this first would have been a good idea. I was sorely tempted to undo the move, on general principles, but figured that would be like the original move, so let it be. For what that's worth -Ebyabe 15:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I was a bit bolder than Ebyabe and tried to move it back; except, since the original move was to "Ichiro (Baseball Player)", the subsequent redirect that corrected the case made it impossible to revert back without an admin, and probably requires WP:RM. The current page name is against the policy in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Single name, so, the (re)correction may be speediable; but, I doubt it. Neier 16:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irrelevant and misleading episode

The episode in which Ichiro mentioned "Korea smells like garlic" is cited in the story about the World Baseball Classic (WBC), and is used to explain the anger of Korean players against Ichiro. However, this episode is being misunderstood, relevant to neither the WBC nor Ichiro's career, and therefore should not be placed here whether or not Korean players actually became angry about it.

Firstly, the Ichiro's remark does not refer to Koreans and it is hard to believe that Ichiro had any intention to disrespect Koreans. Rather, it is natural to take the comment as it plainly and objectively explained the smell of public spaces in Korea - possibly at an airport where he arrived. As Westerners who visit Japan notice the smell of miso especially in confined public spaces, it is also true that Korea has its unique smell originating from kimchi and garlic.

Secondly, it lacks any evidence that Ichiro said it. The only source is the Korean article ([9]), which itself refers to what Korean mass medium/media believed Ichiro had said. Without a citation, there is little reason that the comment, which must have been mentioned in Japanese if Ichiro actually had said it, still conveys the original meaning and his intentions. In fact, there is not a single Japanese primary source that tells this story.

Thirdly, from both aforementioned reasons, the response by Korean players cannot justify itself. It can be safely said that Korean players, or before that, the Korean public including mass media, invented or interpreted the comment without having reasons to do so in such a manner. Additionally, the comment was said to have been made in 1997, according to Source [9]. It is nine years before the WBC took place. The Wikipedia article explains this in a misleading manner saying that "Ichiro also commented prior to the first game." All in all, the Korean reaction is off-the-context, not justifiable, and not more than resentment based on the rumor spreading prior to the WBC.

I propose that the whole description relating to the remark "Korea smells like garlic" be deleted from the Ichiro Suzuki page unless an evidence about the remark is found and Ichiro's intention becomes clear. Otherwise, the possibility that the remark, claimed to have been stated by Ichiro, has been distorted and misunderstood should be fairly explained. Hrkoew 09:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I removed the line. It was uncited. Cla68 20:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
That stuff was pretty pointless. Good riddance. --C S (Talk) 16:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ichiro.jpg

How about a less effeminate picture there? Maybe you think that's stupid, and that it's just a natural early part of a throwing motion, but come on, he's a pro baseball player, he deserves a more manly pose.


If you are mentioning about the second picture, isn't he doing calisthenic stretching? Hrkoew 23:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

As an Ms fan who has watched Ichiro play since he started playing on this continent: that's a perfectly good picture of Ichiro. — Demong talk 03:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ichiro --> Suzuki?

Per the recent discussion on moving this page to another name, I believe discussion should take place before being bold and systematically changing "Ichiro" to "Suzuki" in the article. This will undoubtedly be somewhat contentious. --C S (Talk) 15:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

It should stay "Ichiro", not "Suzuki". The name of the article is Ichiro Suzuki, because the name of the subject is Ichiro Suzuki; but within the article, use the name by which he is most commonly referred to.67.40.31.115 00:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The odd away-team sportscaster calls him Suzuki, but 99% of the time he's Ichiro (when normally a surname only might be used). — Demong talk 05:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Better picture

Could we find a better picture of Ichiro? This one doesn't look very good and the color is off. --Aquagreen (talk) 21:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)