Talk:Icelandic name

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Contents 1 Hotels 2 Hotels and kidnappings 3 Family names 4 Family names trivia 5 Page move 6 Wording 7 Contradiction about Danish - son, sen or søn? dotter or datter? 8 Use of Patronymic in Scandinavia 9 Family Name 10 Middle names in surnames 11 Immigrants 12 Sex change convention? 13 Naming conventions

[edit] Hotels

I think there needs to be more research regarding the hotel stuff in Italy, as it sounds quite unlikely. Women in Spain keep their last names and Portuguese people derive their last names from their mothers. Are hotel owners in Italy turning Spanish and Portuguese people away as well?

It may sound unlikely, but it is true. Perhaps no written sources can be found to support it, however, and if that is the case, then this information should be deleted. But I know for a fact that this is true, since my own father once had this sort of trouble in a hotel in London. Of course, this was a long time ago and I think the world has changed a lot since the 60's. --D. Webb 01:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

If something like that happened in Italy, it must have been a long time ago. I'm Italian. Married women in Italy legally keep their name and use it commonly, I find it very hard to believe that a family with different surnames would be treated unfairly because of this. I think such episodes are more likely to happen in countries where women change their name upon marriage, in fact the story you mention happened in London. Italy is not one of these countries. I travelled with my mother as a child in many occasions and there were never problems in hotels because we had two different surnames. Nor my parents have ever had such problems because of their different surnames. Therefore, without more definite evidence or references on this matter, I am removing the reference to Italy and leaving the statement more generic.

[edit] Hotels and kidnappings

I am removing the following parraraph: "This could easily lead to Icelandic families having difficulties with the customs services of foreign countries mistakenly believing their children may be kidnapped because of the differing names. In other countries or establishments, it can also be fairly embarrassing for a person to check into a hotel with his or her spouse only to have to prove his or her marital status, though this has become a less common requirement in recent decades." This is clearly anecdotal chit chat- unless there is good evidence to back this up this is simply an attempt to imagine a few highly unlikely and melodramatic scenarios (for the record, children do not need to have the same surnames as their parents- they simply need to establish that their parent or the adult travelling with them is their legal guardian and, anyhow, a child's passport almost always makes reference to the legal guardian)

This is Wikipedia at its best: An interesting topic that I would never have thought of looking up, and which would't fit into standard encyclopedias, explained clearly and succinctly - even a Bjork reference at the end to hook it into popular culture without diluting it. Good stuff.

[edit] Family names

The article is right that at large there are no family names in Iceland, however some people (such as me) have one "Arnfjörð" is a family name in my family.

So i have a "first name - family name - fathers name.

It's rare, but there are exceptions to this "rule".

Also, alot of people, especially in later times have middle names which are not family names such as "Ingi Freyr Jónsson".

Also it could be mentioned that foo barson is akin to foo bin bar as used in some muslim countries. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 21:41, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)

[edit] Family names trivia

Actually to be technically correct, you can only have a family name if you have the right to have one (i.e. if your parents have one, usually the father). If you have a family name you need not have a patronym, as the article implies (see http://www.althingi.is/lagasofn/nuna/1996045.html for the original legal text). About 10% of the population have family names and no new family names can be used. –User:128.2.47.26

And how did the ancestors of this 10% come to adopt family names? Did they, for example, belong to a more privileged group perhaps (as was the case in Japan, where most commoners had no surnames)? Also, are titles like Mr/Dr attached to the first name (e.g. Dr. Ævar)? A-giau 12:09, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Probably, according to this they became popular in the 19th century due to danish influance this didn't sit very well with the goverment who attempted to ban them in 1881 (<POV>Icelanders at large suffer from an extreme case of xenophobia</POV>) but didn't succeed, later in 1915 they became legal and finally it became illegal to take a new family name in 1991, however the old ones (pre-1991) are still allowed. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 01:16, 2005 Mar 16 (UTC)

...and to answer your Dr. question they are technically, but are not generally used in common language as Icelanders shun away from using special titles by culture. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 01:18, 2005 Mar 16 (UTC)

This is perhaps more of a linguistic question: I notice most male last names have two s's (-sson), but Ævar's only has one "s" (Bjarmason). Is there a principled reason for that? I ask because in the Southern Min article on Iceland I used Björk as an example but then couldn't be sure if her (real or hypothetical) brother would be Guðmundursson or Guðmundurson. A-giau 12:21, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The reason is that the last name consists of the genitive case (on zh: this is called 属格) + "son" for males or or "dóttir" for females, applying the genitive case to most (but not all) male names e.g. Jón or Gunnar will resault in a suffix ending with s, due to the irregularities of infliction this is not always the case:

Nominative: (I've highlighted the root of the word)

Jón , Gunnar, Guðmundur, Ari, Ævar, Bjarmi

Genitive:

Jóns , Gunnars, Guðmunds, Ara, Ævars, Bjarma

Now, as I stated above a son suffix is always added for males, so the final outcome will be:

Jóns + son = Jónsson

Gunnars + son = Gunnarsson

Guðmunds + son = Guðmundsson (Björks hypothetical brother)

[...]

Hope this helps. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 01:01, 2005 Mar 16 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

I have renamed this article Icelandic name, to conform with other articles in the series. David Cannon 14:02, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wording

Culturally it is a definition of from whom he was begotten, even if that definition is seemingly vague.

What does this mean? --Dpr

Begotten means "born to". The word describes the relationship between parent and child. A child is begotten from its parent. --Sindri 12:42, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction about Danish - son, sen or søn? dotter or datter?

This article says:

the Danish government announced that beginning in April 2006, patronymic names would again be allowed, using — "-søn" (or "-datter") as the suffix.

While Patronymic says:

In Scandinavian languages, the patronymic was formed by using the ending -son (later -sen in Danish) to indicate "son of", and -dotter (Icelandic -dóttir) for "daughter of".

What is correct?--Amir E. Aharoni 11:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Both are correct since sønn is the modern Danish word for 'son'. Note that '-sen' is a product of phonological development. A similar thing happened in the dialect spoken in Jämtland, Sweden. The word for 'son' there is 'san' with a long rounded 'a', but in the patronymic surname it developed to '-sa' with a short non-rounded 'a'.

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 00:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Use of Patronymic in Scandinavia

In the article, one is told: "Icelanders, unlike other Scandinavians, have continued to use their traditional name system, which was formerly used in all of Scandinavia." Is this really true? I know that in at least Sweden, this system is stil in use to some extent. This is especially true in the rural province Jämtland (where I come from) where the patronyme is usually put as a middle name. Suppose a man who is in most documents referred to as Olov Långtjärn gets a daughter which he gives the first name Hanna. Then she'll get the middle name Olovsdotter and the surname Långtjärn, i.e., having a full name Hanna Olovsdotter Långtjärn. Though in most documents she'll be referred to as Hanna Långtjärn. I have seen numbers on this earlier this spring, and obviously some 3% jamtlanders (basically the number of farmers) conform to this system.

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 00:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC))

It seems the difference is that there are always family names in Sweden, and the old system is only used unofficially by a few people, whereas most Icelanders don't have a family name and the patronymic system is the official one. Gestumblindi 15:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In Sweden, officially, one is allowed to carry only one surname. In the case of Hanna Olovsdotter Långtjärn, Olovsdotter is probably registered as a middle-name. It is the same things with the children whose parents have different surnames. According to Skatteverket, the children of Stefan Jansson and Karin Lindgren, will not be able to carry the surname Jansson-Lindgren. Instead, the parents will be able to register one of the names as a middle-name.

Neither can the parents when they marry take the combined Jansson-Lindgren as their new surname. Only one of them is allowed to take the spouse's surname as a middle name. Stefan Jansson and Karin Jansson Lindgren. Anneli Henriksson (still not registered).

There are also some Jämtlanders who have a patronymic and no other surname. Ida Ingemarsdotter seems to be one. Haukur 01:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Family Name

Can anyone tell me further about the Icelandic family name? If I understand well, the son of parent will get a kind of suffix "-son" and the daughter of parents will get a kind of suffix "-dóttir".

However, Eiður Smári Guðjohnsen does not follow the "rule". (I am not sure if it is a rule. Or, should I call this a habit?) Can anyone tell me from whom he gets his last name "Guðjohnsen"?

Then, I have noticed that there is a person whose name is Júlíus Hafstein in the Department of Overseas Business and Tourism. My question is the same as the previous.

My last question is how I can put Icelanders' names in my address book. Is it allowed to put the name of someone by the last name first, e.g. "Guðjohnsen, Eiður Smári"?

Thanks for everyone help. Yves Revi 11:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Guðjohnsen is a surname derived from a Icelandic/Danish patronymic name. That is it was at some time one of his ancestors patronymic name but later became inherited. Icelanders, weather or not they have a surname of patronymic name are usually addressed by their first name and traditionally sorted alphabetically by the first name. Júlíus Hafstein is probably very rarely addressed as Hafstein in Iceland, and calling me Traustason is frankly slightly silly. --Sindri 13:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Sometime around World War I a group of modernists in Iceland attempted to reform the naming system and chose family names. Einar Hjorleifsson Kvaran was one. This trend did not become a trend, but vestiges of this movement can still be found in several Icelandic families that have retained the names adopted at that time or acquired otherwise. I forget if this blip is covered in the main article. It is possible that your Julius Hafstein is a descendent of Hannes Hafstein, though I thought that he had only daughters, at least who themselves had children. Carptrash 20:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC) Oh yes, fill your address book as you see fit, it needs to make sense to you, but Icelandic lists are done by given name and I find this to be a very convienient way of doing non Icelandic lists of names too.

Libraries all over the world traditionally sort Icelanders by first name, including those who adopted a surname. For example, the Library of Congress Authorities heading for Halldór Laxness is Halldór Laxness and not Laxness, Halldór (which is only a reference), in contrast to e.g. some English John Smith who would have a heading like Smith, John. Gestumblindi 02:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Middle names in surnames

In some cases, an individual's last name is derived from his/her parent's middle name instead of first name. For example, if Jón is the son of Hjálmar Arnar Vilhjálmsson he may either be named Jón Hjálmarsson (Jón son of Hjálmar) or Jón Arnarsson (Jón son of Arnar). The reason for this may be that the parent prefers to be called by his/her middle name instead of first, which is fairly common, or that the parent's middle name seems to fit the child's first name better.

Since there is apparently not a single strict rule for forming last names, is it obligatory that all sons or all daughters have to have the same name? For example, if, to use the example given in that paragraph, Hjálmar Arnar Vilhjálmsson has two sons, could he give one the last name Hjálmarsson and the other Arnarsson? Nik42 08:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, do those individuals with inherited surnames have the option of giving their children traditional patrynomics instead of passing on their surname? Nik42 08:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes. --Sindri 12:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

To elaborate, there is no obligation to chose the same form for the children, I know of an Icelandic family where the patronym and matronym are interchanged, the eldest having a patronym, the next one matronym, then a patronym again and finally a matronym. Icelanders can also apply to have their name changed, such as Heiðar Helguson who changed from his patronym to his matronym. --Stalfur 15:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Immigrants

I take it that immigrants get to keep their last name? I mean, I want to live in Iceland eventually, but I don’t want to have to change my name to Max Darrylsson! Max Naylor 13:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes you get to keep your name, until a few years ago however you would also had to chose an icelandic name for yourself which would be used for the records. This was abolished some years ago after heated debates, one protesting foreigner in fact decided to call himself Ljótur Bolli (Ugly cup), perfectly legal names, but his request was denied (since together they form an unflattering image). He then went for Eilífur Friður (Eternal Peace) which was deemed acceptable. I'm unsure if he's changed back to his foreign name currently.

The general rule is that families with surnames get to keep them. --Stalfur 15:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sex change convention?

What happens when an Icelander gets a sex change? For example, if a male named Jonsson has a sex change, does he/she automatically become Jonsdottir?

Interesting question. I would say the answer is yes, or at least this person would be obliged to apply for a name change because his/her former name becomes illegal after the sex change. Icelandic law is quite clear about this, men shall bear approved male names and have their patro-/matronyms end with -son while women shall bear approved female names and have their patro-/matronyms end with -dóttir. --Bjarki 17:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions

In our (American) family, we decided to give the daughters in our family the mother's last name and the sons in our family the father's last name. We have one daughter and two sons. The idea was provide a model that - if followed - could allow a mother's name to be passed down as well as a father's. Yes, the fairness all depends on having some of each. It works for us, though. --146.115.74.193 22:12, 11 November 2007 (UTC)