Talk:Ice Hockey World Championships

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[edit] Czech republic the core state of Czechoslovakia

While Russia is the core state of the former USSR, I dont think Cezch Republic should be called the core state of Czechoslovakia as it is the case in the article. Former Czechoslovakia - 15 million people - 10 czech, 5 slovak —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.127.73.63 (talk) 18:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] 1980 and 1984

Are missing, did they (olympics) count as world championships?

No, they didn't. While, e.g., 1956,1960,1964,1968 did, according to my source. Cmapm 00:43, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article's name

I moved the page because the IIHF refers to the championships in the plural, which is only reasonable. Trontonian

[edit] Pre 1920?

The IIHF only lists championships starting at 1920. Should the pre-1920 championships be listed here? Abelsson

Those would be European championships -- Earl Andrew - talk 20:17, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the European championships should be moved to a page of its own. John Anderson 10:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

As some people believe (see List of international ice hockey competitions featuring NHL players) several other tournaments in the past were not less important than these ones, may be it'd be better to rename this page to official name of these tournaments: IIHF World Championships? Cmapm 12:46, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

No, there are just one tournament which is called World Championships. While its importance is debateable, it is still the only World Championships. John Anderson 10:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Olympic years

I noticed Ajshm changed my latest edit when I put a sup1 next to every year the Olympics also counted as the Worlds. I intentionally put it next to the year so you could easily see which winners were also Olympic winners. Having it in the venue column where it already says "(Olympic)" doesn't make much sense to me. I suggest changing it back, but I don't want to do it if Ajshm is just going to change it again. So, what do others think? --Sarke 00:06, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I think both look pretty silly, one just looks sillier than the other. Besides the notes do not have to be footnotes. How about a different approach, like shading the boxes of the olympic years? --Ajshm 09:17, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Shading is a good idea, but something subtle. Although I thought the sup1 next to the year was subtle... --Sarke 09:36, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
What about placing next to/before Olympic years a little image of an Olympic flag :-)? If no one agrees, shading looks also nice for myself (although it shoud be explained somewhere in the article, what does it mean). Cmapm 16:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] medals Czechoslovakia and Czech republic

the medals of Czechoslovakia are usually added to Czech republic (because most of the players of Czechoslovakia were from Czech part of the country). Or could be added Czech republic + Czechoslovakia and Slovakia + Czechoslovakia. The reason is that Czechoslovakian hockey is much more succesful than Sweden´s and it should be seen from the chart.

Then Russia's medals should be added to medals earned by the USSR, as most of players were from Russia. I don't support such changes. But I think, that number of tournaments the country played in should be added into the table. Canada played in most of the tournaments since 1920, while USSR played just in the ones after 1954. Similar situation is with Czechoslovakia's performance compared to Sweden's. Cmapm 18:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Please could someone who knows this subject check I reverted back to a 'clean' version of this page (i.e. the best one so far). Also if you do know the subject please could you add this page to your watchlist to check for subtle vandalism. Thanks. --Petros471 19:24, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Split off the Juniors

This pages is somewhat long, I think the Junior Championships should be split off into a separate page, like the Women have. 67.68.64.37 11:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the juniors should be split off. I think each tournament, mens, womens, U20, U18 should each have it's own article. Of course there would be links from each so that the interested reader can find the information they want. -- Jeff3000 18:29, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I have split if up to Ice Hockey World Junior Championships. -- Jeff3000 03:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unintended Deformation of the Statistic

Dear author, the problem of your article is that you`re distinguishing in the medal tables between the USSR and Russia. This leads to a deformation of the medal tables - Russia seems to be as succesful as f.e. the UK. BUT: 1) The owherwhelming majority of the players of the USSR-Team was Russian. 2) Russia is the official succecor state of the USSR, in each aspect! I would suggest you to melt the USSR and Russia succeses in the medal table but with a special comment. This would increase the objectivity and neutrality of this article. Or ist this article written by a Canadian? :-)

If you don't like it, fix it. -- Earl Andrew - talk 16:48, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Russia is a new country. There is no aberration. An aberration would be if USSR's stats were lumped with Russia, then it would appear as if Russia won more medals than the number of years it has existed as a country. 132.205.45.110 21:04, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually I respect your point of view and don´t want to change your text, cause you are not d`accord. But the fact, that Russia is the formal succecor of the USSR (in ALL international conventions) underlines, that your splitting the statistic in Russia and USSR is very problematic. For somebody, who does not know a lot about icehockey it seems like, as if we, Russians, can´t play icehockey. By the way, congratulations to your great victory in the u20 world championship! Konstantin

This is a very interesting point that Konstantin makes. Under international law, when a new state is formed, it may or may not be designated as the successor in title to a previous country. If Russia is the official successor to USSR, perhaps it is the sporting successor as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.56.76.140 (talk) 19:06, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Medal tables

There seems to be some controversy about the medal table I added a while back. Here are a few points I'd like to make:

- Separate countries should have separate counts (e.g. USSR/Russia, Czech Rep./Czechoslovakia, Germany/West Germany) because combining them would skew the results. If we start combining the USSR and Russian totals then we need to consider doing the same for the Czech Rep. and Slovakia, etc. Combining the medal totals would be just as, if not more, misleading because the USSR and Russia have had vastly different success for example. We'd be making Russia (as an independent country) look better than it actually is. The fact is that Russia has only won this many medals, stating otherwise would be misleading. It also wouldn't be fair to the other countries involved because Russia or the Czech Rep. for example would be taking sole credit for something that they didn't win on their own.

Leaving the results separate will allow people to make their own minds up about how they want to view it. I will however add a few notes about the Russia/USSR totals and other similar situations to try to minimise any controversy.

- Sorting. The two ways that make sense to me is to sort either by total medals or by gold medals, then silver, then bronze. Since gold > silver I am in favour of sorting it by gold medals first (this is usually how Olympic medals are sorted too). An example of this would that Sweden would be ranked second ahead of the USSR if it was sorted by totals, it is clear that the USSRs 22 gold medals show them as more successful than Sweden (even though I'm Swedish I favour this). Another example is the Czech Republic compared to the US.

- I am in favour of adding the number of tournaments participated in (as previously mentioned) so it's easier to see each countries success, and I will do that now.

Sarke 00:20, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1964

The super script says Canada got the bronze in 1964, but the table lists just Czechoslovakia. Also, I ent to iihf.com, and it doesn;t show Canada as medaled in 1964 -- Mre5765 03:11, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] where are people finding the complete world champ standings?

I've put together stubs for West and East Germany, but I can't find complete standings on the web. Just the pool A standings, and both Germanies sometimes were dropped from pool A.

Is anyone thinking of having more detailed resuls as each Olympics has?

-- Mre5765 03:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the English ones. A good Russian source is, for example [1]. Cmapm 18:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Multiple entries in the table

First, entries "USSR+Russia", "Czechoslovakia+Czech Republic" are confusing and irrelevant IMHO (it's a simple arithmetics to get those numbers). Second, USSR had 15 republics, which are now separate states, not only Russia, therefore writing "USSR+Russia" is IMHO unfair to other former Soviet Republics. Cmapm 18:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe, that edits by 88.154.218.148, which introduced those confusing entries, were vandalism, because, e.g. for 1976 Czechoslovakia was "moved" to the second place and USSR - to the first, which is wrong. The same user seems to have vandalised other pages, including Ice hockey at the Winter Olympics, where he also introduced similar factual errors and confusing table format. Cmapm 02:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

To response to the USSR+Russia being unfair - there were almost all Russians on the Soviet team throught its history.

Hasnt IIHF come out with some statement, as i think FIFA have about countries as Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and Soviet for their medals there. As for example, "FIFA considers the Serbia national team the direct descendant of the Serbia and Montenegro and Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia national teams." How wrong or right some may think it is. Serbia and Yugoslavia go together there, and if IIHF have made such statements, i think it should be changed here.

Well, the official IIHF site says that the Russian Team has been a member since April 1, 1952 and Czech Team since November 15, 1908, so I'd say in both cases they should be considered direct successors of the Soviet and Czechoslovakian teams. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.223.63.174 (talk) 22:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] But what about the Germans?

You have argued about "USSR+Russia" and "Czechoslovakia+Czech Republic" entries in medal tables, but the one that irritates me is listing West Germany separately from Germany. Why? The country known as "West Germany" is officially Federal Republic of Germany which was founded in 1949 and is still in excistence. The "West German" medals from 1953 and 1976 olympics should be added with German ones. East Germany should stay in it's own column because that country and the East German hockey federation membership in IIHF ceased to exist in 1990. They didn't get any medals though.

Of course Germany only has medals from pre-WWII championships besides that of 1953, but as long as some of you are stating that it's "unfair to some nationalities to unite/separate statistics", the thing is that these are all Germans.

I like to organize my statistics thinking that while these international tournaments are dubbed as "competitions between nations" the goverment teams aren't playing, the ice hockey association teams do. So when Germany is on the ice, it's the team appointed by Deutcher Eishockey-Bund (which was established in 1963 and took the place of its predecessor in the IIHF). There was no change in 1990, the DEB is still a member and sending German teams to competitions. And when the IIHF announces that Ice Hockey Federation of Russia is taking the place of Soviet federation in world championships I dub in my statistics the Russians as Soviets "heirs" and add those up. There are good points against at the Russian case, but the German one is clear: Germany 1909-present and DDR 1949(whenever the hockey federation joined)-1990.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilder (talk • contribs)

Why can't we just have Germany instead of a bunch of different entries... --HJV 22:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I prefer it added in as well, though I'd prefer the 1953 medal earned listed as West Germany in the table, and a footnote or something in the end noting that Germany's medals include West Germany. Lejman 10:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Venues

The venue column should have the flag of the venue country. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.115.196.175 (talk) 16:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

Yes, good idea. John Anderson 07:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IIHF World Champions

I notice that in the section of winnters for the IIHF World Champions, Team Canada links by default to the National Men's team, when it actuality it was a senior team from Canada representing the whole country. For example the Whitby Dunlops in 1958, and the Belleville McFarlands in 1959. Does anyone have a complete list we can wikilink? Flibirigit (talk) 17:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Well technically, those teams became the National Team. -Djsasso (talk) 17:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I am aware of that. However, the team should be mentioned somewhere as reprsenting Canada. Flibirigit (talk) 17:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Would that not be on the team's page? -Djsasso (talk) 03:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Listing that accomplishment only on a team's page would not be a complete list. We need either a category of "hockey clubs" that have represented Canada, or a list. A pseudo-list exists at the Allan Cup article for the senior champions of Canada, and the Canada national men's ice hockey team article lists "hockey clubs" from 1930 to 1963. However, the "Canada national men's ice hockey team" article makes no specific mention of of when "hockey clubs" started or stopped representing Canada in place of individuals selected to form a team. I will also raise that point on its talk page. For the World Championships article itself, and the Ice Hockey at the XXXX Winter Olympics articles, there should be mention of not only "Team Canada" but the "hockey club" itself. Flibirigit (talk) 03:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Russia?

Why has Russia scored so badly since Soviet fell? The team only changed the name in participations to Russia, nothing remarkabled happened, so why have they been scoring so bad? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.136.7.139 (talk) 22:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IIHF European Championships

I think the IIHF European Championship table history should be deleted from the article, because the European championship existed til the year of 1991. The year of 1992 til present has only been dominated by the World Champs and minor competitions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.136.7.139 (talk) 11:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.79.177.210 (talk) 23:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I have moved the table to a new article, Ice Hockey European Championships. --Kildor (talk) 08:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)