Talk:Ibelin
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[edit] Maria Comnenas ancestry
Really, Maria Comnena was the only really ROYAL common ancestor of Ibelins. In the first generations, there really was no other wife who would have been from clear royalty. All others were noblewomen of more or less mediocre ancestry. And, later wives were then not COMMON ancestors of all Ibelins, but ancestors of only a few members of the big family. Already because of this fact, I will not bother to mention them. Besides, are there any highly royal anyway?
Speaking of Maria Comnena's ancestry, she (according to genealogical and historical research) really had extraordinary some ancestors: from old Bagratides, through clear descent, and not such guessed as with some other branches. Therefore, I do not like that someone is trying to suppress that info. "related" is not enough - as she was clearly descended. Carried the blood.
Georgia is true.
Armenia is wrongly understood by editor X. It was the proper Armenia, ancestors even from Hellenistic era. Please do not confuse with that semi-crusading principality in Cilicia. It is not the same.
Bulgaria: any good genealogist knows that Comnenos family had an ancestress who descended from certain Bulgarian tsars of 10th century.
The Bagrations of Armenia proper, Maria's ancestors, according to contemporary Armenian sources really were descended from Persian and Parthian monarchs of Hellenistic & late Roman era (including Seleucides and Achaimenides). I suggest you to check relevant books, such as Charles Settipani, Nos ancetres de l'Antiquité, 1991. 62.78.126.61 18:26, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it be more appropriate to put this on the page about the Comneni, rather than the Ibelins? The fact that Maria is descended from the Bulgarian tsars, etc. is almost completely irrelevant to an article about the Ibelins (although the fact that she was Byzantine royalty is relevant). Choess 18:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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- I believe it was a most important thing to poor Ibelins, as they did not have any other royal blood, coming from mediocre knights of obscure origin. Middle Ages, the highest descent was extremely important for nobility. They were social climbers. And they, living in Cyprus (earlier Palestine) were close to earlier realms of Seleucides, Persia, Achaimenides, Arsacides, and Armenia. Geographically even closer than Comneni in constantinople. 62.78.105.154 21:10, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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- Well, Armenia was closer, but the Bagratid monarchy had collapsed for some time. Bulgaria and Georgia, I daresay, were further from the traditional Ibelin seats of power. (And I'm a bit skeptical about Bagratid claims of descent; the Rupenides traditionally claimed Bagratid descent, too, but Ruedt-Collenberg, who thoroughly studied Armenian genealogy, felt the original ancestor had been a retainer of King Gagik, which was inflated into a blood relationship later on.) And remember that the Byzantine Emperor made most of the leaders of the First Crusade swear fealty too him, continued to take military action in the Crusader States through the fall of Edessa, periodically reassert suzerainity over Cilician Armenia, and so forth. Her Byzantine ties would have mattered to the d'Ibelin, not any descent from vanished Eastern states (which would have been shared with her kin, the Byzantine Emperors, anyway). Choess 22:51, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Latter Ibelins
Any idea what became of the family after the settled in Cyprus? Are there any people now living who can claim them as ancestors? Fergananim
- Well, as 62.78 added, "practically all Catholic royalty in recent centuries" have an Ibelin in their family somewhere. Adam Bishop 04:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There was a longtime branch of Lusignans in the island, but they (or documentation of further generations) vanished around the Turkish era. Similar things probably happened to other noble families, such as Ibelins. 217.140.193.123 22:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The royalty is descended from one nexus, I believe. Anne of Lusignan, duchess consort of Savoy. Other descents are hazy or unknown or non-existent.
When I polished the tree above, I actually took some care to point out through which links European royalty today descends from Ibelins.
Not a bad achievement, the founder of the family was apparently quite a simple knight who received some personal success due to capability loyalty etc. Within two generations, there was royalty descending from him. Unusually rapid elevation.
She was ancestress of enough people, so rather soon (within a coule of centuries) all Catholic royalty descended from her. Such things happen: with a stochastic certainty someone is ancestor of everyone or of no one. Cf Most Recent Common Ancestor. In a smaller subgroup, such as Catholic Royalty, it happens relatively very soon. If you are interested in names, well that's actually trivia as we can mention almost anyone within the basic criteria, but how about:
- the current Prime Minister of Bulgaria. Certainly descends from Ibelins. Whereas I am not at all sure of Prime Ministers of Cyprus and Israel.
- Elizabeth II
- Juan Carlos I 217.140.193.123 22:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Family tree
I think the family tree is screwed up (probably by me). Some people are in the wrong generation? It would probably also help to add dates. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, I think I fixed it now. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
