Talk:Hussam Abdo

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I am confused by this sentence:

Hussam, Abdo's brother, said that Abdo possesses the intelligence of a twelve year old.

Should this be "Hussam Abdo's brother", or does he have a brother also named Hussam??? Please clarify Ddddan 17:39, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Notability

I'm sure this kid deserves reference in other articles (That's how I found out about him) but I don't think there's anything particularly important about this particular individual that warrants his own article. Elijahmeeks 19:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Its notable. See the external links. Its up to you if you want more people to know about this topic. Thats what an AfD will do. I'll start putting in some more links for notability. He made "international headlines". I think that might pass for notability, dont you agree? --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 21:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Not really, with the number of news sources in the world today, international headlines just ain't what they used to be. Wikipedia's got 1.7 million articles and enough junk on Simpsons side-characters, so I don't think this is particularly non-notable, but the fact that it's a living person and that the kid is more important for what he represents than who he is persuaded me to post the notability tag. The two of us won't make much of a consensus, but I'm in no hurry to AfD, unless you'd rather do it to get a yea/nay on the notability tag. Elijahmeeks 22:56, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
You can AfD it, but it will result in more people knowing about this issue and the article being improved. If you think he's still not notable after I added some of the EL links and refs, feel free to put back the notice. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 23:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I hadn't noticed that you'd removed the notability tag, I sort of expected that to occur after a discussion, and not as a result of fiat. I tell you what, I'm removing this article from my watchlist, you have successfully peed me out of your territory. Elijahmeeks 02:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
No, please put the tag back in. The article will be improved. Its true, that does happen. If you think he's not notable, put it back in. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 03:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious

seems we got a discrepency with the year of birth, hebrew article states the age as 14, channel 2 states it at 14.5, the AOL film, states it as 15... and the year 1987 would make him at either 16 or 17 at the time of the event. for now, i've listed him at the higher of the initial 3 options (15), as an "appeasing" middle way version. Jaakobou 15:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The YouTube video

I watched the YouTube video several times and it is very clear to me that it is the interviewer, not Abdo, who uses the words "they don't love me". That is why on the English subtitles it is phrased as a question "because of the people they don't love me?" (the interviewer is trying to get Abdo to agree, though apparently he makes no reaction) Obviously, Jaakabou sees and hears something different. Since we can't agree, I think we should remove all references to the video, until an editor knowledgable of Arabic is able to provide a full transcript of the interview. I'm not sure we're supposed to be using clips posted on YouTube as sources anyway. Sanguinalis 12:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

the interviewer is simply repeating the boys words in question form. i gave you the time stamp so your comment is somewhat disturbing. JaakobouChalk Talk 13:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No, he isn't. Sanguinalis 10:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

maybe you should open a WP:3O to resolve this issue. reverting based on "no he isn't" is no way to resolve disputes such as this one. JaakobouChalk Talk 19:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I was willing to compromise, and remove all references to the video from the article, until we can find help from an editor knowledgable of Arabic. You, however, have rejected this compromise and insisted on inserting a "quotation" from the video in this article. But the "quotation" you are inserting does not exist. Now I don't speak Arabic and I know you don't, because you need Google to translate Arabic articles for you. So we have to rely on the English subtitles. Here are all the English subtitles in the video, starting from the announcer's "now to the explanation that this boy gave last night" to the end of the clip:

02:31 now to the explanation that this boy gave last night
02:34 why did you think to create such an attack?
02:40 because of the people.
02:45 because of the people you don't love me?
02:48 or did you also think about paradise

In your edit, you attribute the words "because of the people, they don't love me" to Abdo. But the only time those words appear in the subtitles is at 2:45, and you have acknowledged in your preceding post that the question at 2:45 was asked by the interviewer. You wrote, "the interviewer is simply repeating the boys words in question form". But the words "they don't love me" do not appear in the subtitles before the interviewer's question. They were never said by Abdo. Sanguinalis 01:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Sanguinalis, i have a question for you. which do you think is more reliable, the english subtitles or the hebrew one made by the news channel? JaakobouChalk Talk 01:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

If you want to make a transciption of the Hebrew subtitles so we can compare them to the English ones, go right ahead. If you are suggesting that the Engligh subtitles are not translations of the Hebrew subtitles, please state exactly where there is a discrepancy. Do you acknowedge that I have correctly transcribed the English subtitles above? Sanguinalis 02:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

yes, i acknowledge that you have correctly transcribed the English subtitles above, i never said anything to mention you haven't. please answer the question before i give you the accurate hebrew transcripts: which do you think is more reliable, the english subtitles or the hebrew one made by the news channel? JaakobouChalk Talk 02:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The Hebrew would be more reliable, though even better would be an Arabic transcription of this interview that was conducted in Arabic. But if you want to refer to the Hebrew subtitles, go head, just provide a complete transcript of the same part of the clip I did in English. Sanguinalis 03:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


here goes:

02:34 why did you think to perform such an attack?
02:40 because of the people.
02:42 because of the people?
02:43 They don't love me.
02:45 because the people don't love you? is that why?*
02:47 the boy nods yes.
02:48 or did you also think about paradise?
02:50 the boy nods yes strongly.

* "is that why?" is visible about a second later when the english subs disappear.

i hope this clears the issue (until you can find some arbitrator arabic speaker). please consider reverting back the information. JaakobouChalk Talk 03:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No, Jaakobou, this is NOT what I asked you to provide. I asked you to provide a transcipt of the Hebrew subtitles, not a translation. Do you understand the difference? A transcript means the actual Hebrew words, in Hebrew letters. I know the Hebrew alphabet so I will be able to verify if you have transcribed it correctly. Sanguinalis 12:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
whatever happened to assuming good faith? ... oh well - here goes:


02:34
למה חשבת לבצע פיגוע כזה?
02:40
בגלל האנשים.
02:42
בגלל האנשים?
02:43
הם לא אוהבים אותי.
02:45
בגלל שאנשים לא אוהבים אותך? זו הסיבה?
02:47
-- the boy nods yes. --
02:48
או שחשבת גם על גן עדן?
02:50
-- the boy nods yes strongly. --

}}

i hope this resolves the issue. JaakobouChalk Talk 13:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid it does not resolve the issue, since the net result is not compliant with verifiability, a core policy of Wikipedia. An "average" viewer, watching the English language video will not see what is claimed. We have an editor provided translation, but it is original research to use it to overturn what our senses tell us. Only an RS secondary source, discussing the video and telling us that the English version is wrong will do. (It may be worse than that - User:Sanguinalis seems to think we don't have access to the sub-titled Hebrew video clip!).
why I'm here ->> User:Jaakobou wished us to know that he could contribute constructively to articles and profered this exchange for us to check. I'm underwhelmed with the result - and vividly reminded of the number of times I've seen foreign language sources referenced into the en-Wikipedia (frequently with no translation whatsoever), as if the needs of regular readers didn't matter and foreign language policy was optional. The results of such efforts can be seen at Battle of Jenin ("totally disputed") and elsewhere. PalestineRemembered 18:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
As for the dialogue's translation - I checked the video clip. The reporter asks the kid why he did it, and he says علشان الناس بيحبونيش, i.e. "because the people don't like me". The the reporter asks him something about paradise (جنة) and he nods hesitantly, I'm not sure he heard the last question. DrorK 20:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
DrorK, are you able to provide a complete Arab transcript of the entire interview shown in the video? Sanguinalis 18:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is the dialogue as heard in Palestinian Arabic -
02:34
ليش فكرت تسوي عملية زي هدي؟
02:40
عشان الناس...
02:42
عشان الناس؟
02:43
الناس... بيحبونيش..
02:45
الناس ما بيحبوك؟ هدا السبب؟
02:47
-- the boy nods yes. --
02:48
وفكرت برضو تطلع بها ع الجنة[unclear utterance]?
02:50
-- the boy nods hesitantly. --
In my opinion the translation is accurate except for the last question where it should be: "and you thought it [i.e. the operation] might sent you to heaven/paradise?" DrorK 10:36, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, DrorK. It's interesting that you wrote that Abdo nods "hesitantly" while Jaakobou wrote that he nods "strongly". This suggests we should not read too much into the nods, as different viewers see different things. Also, in your original post you wrote that Abdo said "because the people don't like me" but from your transcript it is clear that "because of the people" and "the people don't like me" are separate utterances. To me, Abdo's second utterance looks very much like a response to the interviewer's question "because of the people?", not a continuation of his first utterance. I don't think we should put in the article that Abdo said "because the people don't like me" because he didn't say that. Sanguinalis 01:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, please, let's not treat this text as if it were the Prophet's words. It needs not a tafsir. The poor kid clearly says that his motivation was being unpopular by the people of his community. The last question This is very evident from this dialogue. It seems to me that the reporter tried to push the kid into saying that he wanted to reach paradise, but the kid was unwilling to cooperate with this line. However it is evident that he said "because people don't like me". DrorK 08:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I think we should quote the boy as accurately as we can. The Arabic transcript you provided has been helpful in that regard. Sanguinalis 02:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Hebrew vs. the English subtitles

The Hebrew subtitles are difficult to read, because they are covered by the English subs, but it does appear that Jaakobou transcribed them correctly. It is worth pointing out though, that by his own admission, Jaakobou has posted a link to a YouTube video with erroneous English subtitles. He didn't tell us they were erroneous for two weeks, after he was pressed on the issue. So it is certainly prudent to look at examine every source he provides with extreme caution. What's more, Jaakobou's latest edit is misleading, as according to his own transcript, Abdo did not say "because of the people, they don't love me" as a single sentence. Sanguinalis 02:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. i disagree with what seems like an attempt to delete this pharse. however, feel free to offer up substitutes.
  2. it would be far more constructive to our discussion if you avoid statements such as " He didn't tell us they were erroneous for two weeks, after he was pressed on the issue", this statement is an inaccurate allegation, considering i only gave you the time stamp, assuming you will notice the boy speaks at a point where the english subs don't change.
  3. in hopes of clearing this issue someday, i opened a WP:3O notice.
-- JaakobouChalk Talk 02:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're disputing. The phrase "because of the people, they don't love me" does not appear in your transcript, in either the English or the Hebrew version. Sanguinalis 02:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

it's a clear continuation of the talk, if you have a problem with this phrasing, you're invited to suggest an alternative. ... i see you already have.[1] i'm fine with this even though i think it's a tad fluffy. JaakobouChalk Talk 02:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
comment - i'd appreciate it if next time you won't attack me like you did with this one, it's very uncivil and i'm sure you won't appreciate similar allegations. JaakobouChalk Talk 07:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)