Talk:Hurva Synagogue

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Epson291 01:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

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Why is it that so little of the information in this article is accurate? The Ramban Synagogue, while indeed below the Hurva, is a separate synagogue. It was founded by followers of Yehudah HaHasid, but it was in the eighteenth century, if memory serves me correct. Etc. etc. etc. I wish I had my texts here with me for precise info, but right now, this is very wrong. Danny 05:20, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I have today rewritten some and added a lot of info to this topic. I believe the reference to the Ramban synagogue is correct but will check and update if required.--KevR 13:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jordanian commander??

The Jordanian commander on the scene is reported to have told his superiors: "For the first time in 1,000 years, there's not a single Jew left in the Jewish Quarter, and not a single building that hasn't been damaged. This will make the return of Jews here impossible."

This passage is unsourced... and the only references I can find for it on the web appear to be lifted from this page... wikipedia mirrors, one blog and one discussion forum. I suggest removing it unless it can be properly cited. 128.232.240.178 21:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It's in the several Haaretz articles below. Btw, did anyone notice the similarities to the speech of Amon Goth in Schindler's list ? Evil is evil.

"They trundled their belongings into this city, they settled, they took hold, they prospered.

For six centuries, there has been a Jewish Cracow. (<->"For the first time in 1,000 years, there's not a single Jew left in the Jewish Quarter")

By this weekend, those six centuries, they're a rumor. They never happened. Today is history." Amoruso 12:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling??

In Hebrew, a bet following a shva nah should have a dagesh, hence the name should be "hurba", not "hurva". Although apparently very common, it is nevertheless a misspelling, and Wikipedia shouldn't propagate it.--Doron 20:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

If there's no objection, I'll correct the spelling and rename the article accordingly.--Doron 00:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
No one calls it the Hurba, and you are doing a disservice by trying to "correct" this. It has always been "Hahurva." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gilabrand (talk • contribs) 08:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
No, it is Hurba, with a dagesh in the bet. There is no "hurva" in Hebrew. I'd appreciate it if you discuss this in the talk page before changing the article.--Doron 08:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
There is prescriptive grammar and descriptive grammar. Technically you may be right (although Alkalai lists both hurva and hurba). On the other hand, the site is popularly known, wrongly, perhaps, as Hahurva, also in many history and geography books. If you want to educate people in proper pronunciation, a brief explanation of this on the page would be good, but the few people who will ever seek English information about this synagogue on Wikipedia are bound to type "Hurva." And yes, I know they are re-directed. It reminds me a little of Latrun - a historical mispronunciation of the French. Yes, it's wrong. But that's what the place is officially called. Sorry about not discussing this first. No offense intended.
The name Latrun, like many placenames, originates from a mispronunciation. The Hurba Synagogue, on the other hand, has only one correct Hebrew name, and we're talking about how to translate it to English. "Hurva" is based on a common mispronunciation, but it did not become the name of the place, and if it is written in Hebrew without the dagesh, it would be a misspelling.--Doron 11:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Being such a stickler for proper grammar, how come you wrote "beit haknesset hahurba"? In smikhut it should be "beit knesset hahurba." --Gilabrand 09:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

No. It is not the house of the assembly of the ruin, it is the house of assembly "the ruin" ("the ruin" is the name of the synagogue). Its official name was Beit Haknesset Beit Yaakov, (and in Jerusalem there are also Beit Haknesset Hagoral, Beit Haknesset Haramban, etc.; also, one says Beit Haholim Ha'emek, not Beit Holei Ha'emek).--Doron 11:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


In English, the synagogue is officially called the Hurva, that is firstly the spelling on the English maps provided by Israel's Ministry of Tourism, but also on the sign outside the synagogue it self! I've never seen it spellled in English as Hurba. (I know it's חרבּה in Hebrew). It's not our role to decide what we think the translation should be. I took a personal photo a few days ago, and I'm posting it here to show (look at the sign). It is called the Hurva in English, regardless of what it is called in Hebrew. I reverted the change. Wikipedia:Naming conventions Epson291 07:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Are you kidding? This is a sign by the building contractor, I'm surprised they didn't misspell their own name (and same goes for the tourist map). We can't rely on these sources to determine the "official" spelling, or even that there is an "official" English name at all. "Officially" the synagogue is called Beit HaKnesset Beit Yaakov in Hebrew. I've seen very few references to the English misspelling -- too few to establish it as an "English name". The place has a Hebrew name and we should ronamize it correctly.--Doron 04:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
No, I am not kidding you. I have seen it as Hurva in books, so I don't know what you've read. Also a Google test shows Hurva the much more popular spelling. And, the building's construction sign says haHurva, so I'm not sure how much more "proof" is needed. Surley though the synagogue will change the sign if it's spelt wrong? I agree it's a mispronucation, I don't know why this exists, but it does, and it isn't Wikipedia's job to "fix" it. Things are pronounced different ways in different languagues Epson291 01:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Which books?--Doron 07:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Many,
1. "One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate" - Tom Segev (2001)
2. "Hurva symbol: Synagogue, Jerusalem" by Peter Buchanan (1983)
3. "Frommer's Israel"
4. The Holy Land: An Oxford Archaeological Guide from Earliest Times to 1700 By Jerome Murphy-O'Connor (1998) - Oxford University Press
5. A Guide to the Lands of the Bible By Leslie J. Hoppe (1999)
6. Israel and the Palestinian Territories: The Rough Guide By Daniel Jacobs, Shirley Eber (1998)
7. Facts on the Ground: Archaeological Practice and Territorial Self-fashioning in Israeli Society By Nadia Abu El-Haj (2001) University of Chicago Press -
- (This book points out spefically that the Hurva Synagogue comes from the Hebrew word for ruin, Hurba)
Doron, every book I have ever read on the history of Jerusalem, and I've read quite a few, has called it the Hurva in English. Epson291 08:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Also, please review WP:NAME and WP:UE, that is the basis of why to call it "Hurva" Epson291 08:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, I accept your position. I was not aware that this misspelling was so prevalent.--Doron 11:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

I think the quotes here are way too long (and end up being boring). I would summarize them in a few sentences.--Gilabrand 10:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Please have a go – (maybe the boxes themselves are inappropriate as well?) - I'll see what I make of your improvements! Chesdovi 15:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I have modified one of the boxes. What do you think? I will try to do the same with the description of the shul but would like to retain most of it as it is a very comprehensive account which I think is important to have. Chesdovi 20:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)