Talk:Huo Yuanjia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject China, a project to improve all China-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other China-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.

???

This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Huo Yuanjia article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (`~~~~`). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

[edit] Death by poisoning?

I have just removed the addition of info that Huo's death was due to "poisoning by the Japanese over a period of time". If anyone can find sources to back this up, feel free to add the information back in. —
Kimchi.sg | Talk 04:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Yar there seems to be extensive vandalism in this page and silly POVishness
68.126.205.129 01:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The poisoning by the Japanese is an unsubstantiated rumor spread by those who have ulterior motives other than reporting true facts. A few Chinese and some of his decendents still desparately cling to this idea, simply because they desparately wish to believe it. In reality, the evidence indicates the poisoning theory is merely a fabrication. Nobody know for sure not even his decendents. If there were actual witnesses or evidence to the crime, then his death would not be a mystery.
Jaotsu 18:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The reason why "poisoning" is a fabricated rumor is that there is no evidence to validate this event as fact. How do people know he was 'secretly' poisoned? From my research, the poison rumor is NOT verifiable. What is verifiable is the use of arsenic to treat tuberculosis during the early 1900's was common in China and Europe. Another fabricated rumor was when Huo fought the Judo team, he broke all of their arms and hands including the teachers's. He then attended a peace-making dinner given by the Japanese Judo wrestlers where he was given a medication by a Japanese doctor containing poison. This ridiculous rumor has been disproven. How can the Judo team eat using chopsticks when all their arms and hands are broken? Who reported that he was given medication by the Japanese doctor unless there was witnesses?
Huo Xin 05:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact that Huo was poisoned is a known fact written down not only by Huo's students, e.g. Mr. Chen Gong Zhe, a student of Huo Yuan Jia in Shanghai whose family contributed significantly to Jin Wu Athletic Association in his book '精武五十年史', published in Hong Kong in 1957 and reprinited in 2002, but also in the relocation of Huo and his wife tombs in 1989, in which his bone pelvis bones were discovered to have black spots and tested to contain poison. Please refer to the follow link: http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/aBa3_4rD-1g/. He was treated in Shanghai Red Cross Hospital for 2 weeks and passed away, and the doctors at the Shanghai Public Concession Hospital confirmed his medicine issued by the Japanese doctor Akino, which went back to Japan after Huo was submitted to hospital. Karolus 20070608

It is commonly known that arsenic is used in Asian medicines. Investigators at the U.S. National Fish and Wildlife Forensics Laboratory report that they have found potentially toxic levels of arsenic and mercury in Chinese herbal balls. Herbal balls are a mixture of medicinal herbs and honey and are dissolved in warm wine or water and then drunk as a tea. The investigators analyzed the balls as part of their effort to prevent the importation of products from endangered species. They found that the mercury content in the 32 balls tested varied between 7.8 and 621.3 mg per ball while the arsenic content varied between 0.1 and 36.6 mg. The most contaminated preparation was An Gong Niu Huang Wan from the Tung Jen Tang Pharamaceutical Factory in Nanjing. These balls contained between 3.21 and 36.6 mg of arsenic and between 80.7 and 621.3 mg of mercury, most likely in the form of sulfides. The investigators warn that chronic poisoning has been reported in people ingesting as little as 10 mg per day of arsenic sulfide and among people ingesting approximately 260 mg per day of mercury sulfide. Espinoza, Edgard O., et al. Arsenic and mercury in traditional Chinese herbal balls. The New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 333, No. 12, September 21, 1995, pp. 803-04

[edit] Mizongquan

is the family style of mizongquan the same thing as mizongluohan that this article links to? There are quite a few chinese styles that share the same name, or similar names that are quite different from each other and unrelated. I can't be too sure of this. (also the spelling as my jhong is terrible!)

[edit] Was this an actual event?

"The 2006 Jet Li film Fearless (Huo Yuan Jia), described an event that took place on September 14, 1910. According to the film, this day is one of the most significant date in Huo's life. Ever since ... " This refers to the movie Fearless, but did this even actually take place? or was it purely fictional? If it were fictional then a clearer wording should be used because right now it sounds like the event actualy took place, and was refered by the movie Fearless. I am currently trying to find some more info on this event. . .
clragon 02:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

That was a fictional event from the film I think. There are a lot of colorful stories surrounding him in the public. For example someone told me that they read in a Chinese newspaper that Huo Yuanjia supposedly grabbed the Russian wrestler's wrist and threw him, but from what I've read, Huo only spoke with the Russian. If he really had a physical exchange, why didn't his great-grandson mention it in the interview?
Shawnc 04:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem with interviewing his descendants is that some of them are trying to hype myths and legends regarding Huo Yuanjia. You will find that such interviews are unreliable sources of information since they overexaggerate the events in his life to benefit their own ulterior motives. Also at that time the press was well known to distort news in order to sell papers, so even newspaper articles must be examined with a degree of skepticism.
Jaotsu 17:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

What Jaotsu said is wrong. The myths and legends regarding Huo did not begin by the Huo family. Huo Yuan Jia's life was well published in the 1910's, and dozens of novels were written on his life in 1910's and 1920's. There are two branches of Huo Yuan Jia's descendants. One branch still lives in Xiao Nan He village, Tianjin, and the other branch lives in Indonesia.

Karolus 2007/2/12

The 2006 Jet Li film "Fearless" is a fictionalized story about Huo Yuanjia's life. Like all movies about famous people, they are never 100% accurate. Movies are made for entertainment not for history lessons. Just like the Bruce Lee movie "Fists of Fury" (Chinese Connection) used distorted history about the life of Liu Zheng Sheng to make the movie more entertaining to the audience.
Huo Xin 03:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verifiable story in martial arts?

He "had caught one chance to end the fight, he stopped his one opportunity to deliver a death blow to his opponent realizing that he has caused enough deaths, the match ends anonymously, but Tanaka has realized who the true master of fighting was". This is a writing more fitting for a movie script than an encyclopedia.
Vapour

I've marked this article as needing a cleanup. We need to clear out or verify all this nonsense that the Jet Li film is generating.

I agree. I will be making cleanup changes to clear out all nonsense and verify all the facts.
Huo Xin 21:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are all the information true?

i would like to know if all the facts and information are true and unbiased as it is important for people to know the truth. some people might even use this website for their research on huo yuan jia and in the end they use wrong and inaccurate information. so i like to double-check if all this information are accurate. - thank you

I have been researching as much as possible in both Asian libraries and on the internet. There are many rumors about his life that some people want to put down as fact which are totally untrue. I have been busy making corrections and removing any bias and correcting historic fallacies. According to what I have studied about his life and events, Huo Yuanjia would never be boastful and never demand anything. He would not brag about his skills - most of the myths and rumors you read about are perpetuated by the press and those who wish to make money regarding stories surrounding events in his life. He would never place blame on others or say or write anything bad about anyone regardless of whether it is true or if they deserved it. Huo Yuanjia believed that to gain superiority of one's self, this was the philosophy to follow and if everyone followed it, the country as a whole would prosper. This is a far cry from what you see in modern day China and what is being taught to the public as a whole. I believe if Huo Yuanjia was alive today, he would be very disappointed to see the state of martial arts and the failure of his teachings to students today.
Jaotsu 03:52, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Historical events and corrections have been made to more accurately describe Huo Yuanjia's life. There has been incorrect and unproven rumors previously posted. These will be removed as found.
Huo Xin 03:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not gregorian

China wasn't using the Gregorian calendar in 1910 (and not really until 1929) and their year numbering system was IIRC a bit haywire, so "this before that" is probably more reliable than "dates" (which are translations).

[edit] Corrections made

People have been mixing myth, rumors, and unsubstantiated stories about Huo Yuan Jia. Corrections have been made to make his life history more accurate.
Jaotsu 23:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grammatical Correction

It read "a few months helping found..."
Now reads "a few months after helping found..."
128.61.137.240 20:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)Carsonc

[edit] You cannot learn to fight by yourself and his great humility

You cannot learn martial arts fighting just by doing forms. If you wish to learn to fight others succesfully you need to practice daily with another person. Thus, Huo Yuanjia could not of practiced by himself secretly for 10 years and become a champion fighter. The exclusion of his Japanese tutor is historically inaccurate although his name may not be correct. Regarding the Russian fighter and the newspaper article, Huo Yuan Jia would never "demand" any thing. He would ask rather than demand because of his great and well known trait of humility.
Jaotsu

[edit] Phrases such as "No Dogs and Chinese Allowed" were widely used by the Europeans forcibly occupying territories in China

This is a myth, refuted many times over by Chinese academics. It's interesting to note that this "no dogs and ___" claim is made in regards to many ethnicities who have suffered second-class status during periods of history, for example the Ainu in Japan.
--68.227.68.36 14:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

What you are saying is incorrect. You are misrepresenting the Chinese academics. Let me clarify this issue regarding this catch-phrase. It is a myth that the Japanese posted signs which said "No Dogs and Chinese Allowed" in Shanghai, but in reality, the phrase "No dogs and Chinese allowed" was widely used verbally by the Europeans forcibly occupying territories in China just like "Sick men of Asia". "Chinaman" and "Chink" were also commonly used terms to describe a person of Chinese ancestry. Such phrases and terms were very popular during the early 20th century to describe the exploited Chinese people.

Fact: The phrase "No Dogs and Chinese Allowed" has it origins in what is now called Huangpu Park. It is located on the northern end of the Bund in Shanghai and stretches along Suzhou Creek. It was first established in 1886 as Public Garden, the first European sytle park in China designed by a Scottish gardener. It included a resting pavilion and a tennis court, and was specifically designed for use only by European foreigners living in Shanghai. Signs such as "The Gardens are reserved for the foreign community", and further down: "No dogs and bicycles are admitted" were posted on the entry gates to this park. These two rules have probably contributed to the birth of the simplistic (though in essence correct) catch-phrase.

The rumor is perpetuated by the 1972 Bruce Lee film "Fists of Fury" also known as "The Chinese Connection". The film is famous for the scene in which Chen Zhen is denied entry into a park bearing a sign stating "No Dogs and Chinese Allowed" which fictionally was posted by the Japanese. He kicked the offending sign in the air and broke it with a flying kick. In reality, no such sign was ever posted by the Japanese. It never existed.

Fact: In Beijing's Forbidden Palace, there are two shops with the signs "Foreign Guests Only, Chinese Nationals Forbidden."
Jaotsu 18:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional historic content added

I have included additional historic content. The story of Huo Yuanjia and the history of the Chin Woo Association was over simplified and excluded the political environment. The influence of the Tongmenghui, a secret society and underground resistance movement organized by Sun Yat-sen and Song Jiaoren in Tokyo, Japan, on 20 August 1905, and the financial support in the creation of the first Chin Woo center should not be excluded.
Huo Xin 06:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the additions seem to much like political axe-grinding and legened polishing and less like sourced verfifiable stories.
Fire Star 火星 23:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The historic additions are verifiable and is an important part of the Chin Woo Assoc.'s history. The omission of these additions are political. The school's history can be verified from the June 1910, the Eastern Times newspaper as well as doing research on Tongmenghui history and their influence on China during the early 20th century.
Huo Xin 22:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The Tongmenghui involvement is an integral part of the Chin Woo Association's history. Omitting this fact would be unethical and politically manipulative.
Jaotsu 20:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed the Fearless reference from the death section. Not appropriate there.
Jaotsu 19:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Keep the name consistent

About two thirds of the way through this article, the notation of the name switches from the pinyin notation "Huo Yuanjia" used in the article title to "Huo Yuan Jia". The notation should be consistent throughout and conform to the Wikipedia Chinese naming conventions. Should pinyin be used for all occurrences?
216.170.205.9 23:00, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I searched the article and tried to standardize all name references to "Huo Yuanjia".
Jaotsu 23:52, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Fearless film.jpg

Image:Fearless film.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Official Chin Woo Information

Quoted from the official Chin Woo Federation website:

Grandmaster Huo Yan Jia (founder of Chin Woo, 1867 - 1909) was the fourth child in the family of 10 brothers and sisters. During his childhood, he frequently became ill and, as a result, was often taken advantage of by the other children in his province. Ironically, Master Huo’s father, who was teaching kungfu, refused to teach his son the martial art. Therefore the young Huo was forced to hide behind bushes and watch as his father taught other students in the courtyard. Master Huo practiced on his own for the next 10 years. His parents never discovered this until he began to fight with his peers and defeat them. Later, his father officially accepted him and taught his younger son all that he knew. One day, he fought with a foreigner and immediately gained fame. It was during this time that many foreigners were in China, and some referred to the Chinese as the “Sick Men of Asia.” To keep the Chinese image, Master Huo decided to organize the Chin Woo School to allow all Chinese the opportunity to learn Chinese kungfu and strengthen themselves in order to defend the country. In 1909, a European wrestler was sent to Shanghai to challenge any Chinese that would accept. News quickly spread all over Shanghai. Later, some Chinese people invited Master Huo to Shanghai to accept the challenge. He seized the opportunity and emerged victorious. This incident further escalated Master Huo’s reputation.

As word of his victory further spread, so did the Chin Woo spirit. Unfortunately, in August 1909, Master Huo died, but on March 3, 1910, Mr. Chen Gong Zhe, Mr. Yao Chan Bo and Mr. Lu Wei Chang reopened the Chin Woo school. After Master Huo Yan Jia passed away, his younger brother, Mr. Huo Yuan Siang, and his son, Mr. Huo Tong Ker, continued to teach at the Chin Woo Association. Later, many famous martial-arts masters were invited to teach in Chin Woo. Even though they came from different schools, they all followed Chin Woo regulations. Thus Chin Woo became a famous and popular martial-arts association in Shanghai. Chin Woo sponsored most of the martial-arts tournaments. However, in 1966, Shanghai Chin Woo was forced to discontinue their martial-arts activities due to communist regulations. Those restrictions were later lifted, and martial-arts activities were again alive in the Shanghai Chin Woo.

After the death of Master Huo, Chin Woo was reorganized to make it available to other parts of China and Asia. In 1920, Shanghai Chin Woo sent representatives to Southeast Asia. Mr. Li Hui Seng, Mr. Luo Xiao Ao, Mr. Chen Gong Zhe, Mr. Ye Shu Tian, and Mrs. Chen Shi Chao made their first stop in Saigon, Vietnam. They opened the first Chin Woo School there and later in parts of Malaysia and Singapore. To prove their skills, they were often required to give demonstrations or accept challenges. By 1923, these five Chin Woo Masters had opened Chin Woo schools all over Southeast Asia and visited nine different countries. Of the five masters, Mr. Ye Shu Tian was considered the most knowledgeable in kungfu.

Source: http://www.chinwoo.com/history.htm

Hopefully, someone will make use of the above quote and improve the article. MastaFighta (talk) 04:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Hidden categories: Military biography work group articles | Start-Class biography (military) articles