Talk:Huns

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Huns article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	Huns is part of WikiProject Central Asia, a project to improve all Central Asia-related articles. This includes but is not limited to Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Xinjiang, Tibet and Central Asian portions of Iran and Russia, region-specific topics, and anything else related to Central Asia. If you would like to help improve this and other Central Asia-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as mid-importance on the Project's importance scale.
	After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.

Archives
1 2

The interesting discusion was hiden/moved/archved here |/

Contents 1 Talk:Huns/Archive1 2 Why Suni 3 Posibly false intent 4 Huns are the first known turkish state 5 The Biggest Scandal of Wikipedia 6 Religion or religions? 7 HUNS=TURKS, TURKS=HUNS 8 Real and true map with finno-ugric, baltic and other tribes. 9 WikiProject Turkey? 10 Huns in India 11 Is this map of the huns acurate? 12 Appearance 13 Straightforwardness for the Hun bow 14 White Huns 15 Sources please 16 Huns were no Turks 17 So what happened to the Huns after Atilla's death? 18 "Finnic Huns"? 19 protecting the page 20 Iranian problem again 21 Finno-Ugric Clans of Huns and never lived Persians in the Empire 22 RfC: Ethnic composition illustrative sentence 23 Facts vs theories - pls remove from "WikiProject Turkey" 24 Something to ponder

[edit] Talk:Huns/Archive1

[edit] Why Suni

rather she deer ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.13.244.169 (talk) 02:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

^{Superscript text}

[edit] Posibly false intent

• the Wikipedia entry is now :

Recent genetic research[1] shows that many of the great confederations of steppe warriors were not entirely of the same ra:ce, but rather tended to be ethnic mixtures of Eurasian clans. In addition, many clans may have claimed to be Huns simply based on the prestige and fame of the name, or it was attributed to them by outsiders describing their common characteristics, believed place of origin, or reputation.[1]"All we can say safely", says Walter Pohl,"is that the name Huns, in late antiquity, described prestigious ruling groups of steppe warriors".[1]

• as reference to 1 is given:

1. ^ a b c d Walter Pohl (1999), "Huns" in Late Antiquity, editor Peter Brown, p.501-502 ..
   1. further references to F.H Bauml and M. Birnbaum, eds., Atilla: The Man and His Image (1993).
   2. Peter Heather, "The Huns and the End of the Roman Empire in Western Europe," English Historical Review 90 (1995):4-41.
   3. Peter Heather, The Fall of the Roman Empire (2005).
   4. Otto Maenchen-Helfen, The World of the Huns (1973). E. de la Vaissière, Huns et Xiongnu "Central Asiatic Journal" 2005-1 pp. 3-26

The question I put: who is referenced as genetic research revelator?

• 1 Otto Maenchen-Helfen 1973 <? he is the most enigmatic writer.
• 2 F.H Bauml and M. Birnbaum 1993,
• 3 Peter Heather 1993,
• 4 Peter Heather 1995,
• 5 Walter Pohl, 1999
  • Or ?

Is it common in 'intuge' research to write so transparently refernces ? To group V position as one ?

Nasz 18:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I hope this is just an edition error and should be corrected or reverted.

Walter Pohl is the reference. -- Stbalbach 15:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Huns are the first known turkish state

Huns, are the first known turkish nomads, that has been discovered, why cant you say that? Please reflect History as it is, I hope this is a respectable website, then a political one. If you like to read more and ask for more evidence there is plenty of them!!! Attilla is a turkish name too, turkish has been a culture since 5,000 years, you can still see the turks in central asia such as Uzbeks, kazakhs

[edit] The Biggest Scandal of Wikipedia

The Huns who dress, speak, look a like of 100% old Turks, are shown like the Slavs or Germans in the Huns page of wiki... congratulations to editors and the wiki family for this stupidness u suckz —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.233.18.59 (talk) 09:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

Where does it say the Huns are Slavs or Germans? -- Stbalbach 18:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Saying the Huns were 100% Turks is akin to saying the population of the United States is Roman because the title of the ruler president comes from Latin or that the population is Greek since the name of our current president comes from Greek. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

217.12.62.106 22:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)::HUN-GARY. A pretty big scandal, it's true. For a while, there were some partially right usefull remarks on Huns at this place. I self also tried to contribute 2006 with my knowledge about latest development of several old and new trends in the ONLY COUNTRY in the WHOLE WORLD, that in FACT bears the NAME of HUNS, i.e. HUNGARY, where I am living. Who to the hell dares to delete such work?

Herewith I kindly ask all highly stupid nationalistic fanatics to shedup their faces with any foreign so-called projects, since HUNS indeed DID leave their originating Eastern territories (and that at a time when nobody heard a single funny tune about peoples living now there), and after sudden death of Attila their main groups become dissolved in the Carpathian Basin, Central Europe, counting yet some thousand here.

Sure, Huns are neither slavic, nor germanic, but also not turkic. Try to understand, NOT ALL of the possibly some dozen smaller or greater nations originating from West or Central/Inner Asia and then migrating far west, must be "automaticly" turkic, even not, when they dressed likely. Similarly, e.g. also Jesus or Greeks are NOT "turkic", etc. Finaly, we find research on archeology, epigraphics, texts like letters, historiae, annales, mt.DNA, etc.

Thus, the "turkic project" should better include for example kurdic history, I recommend, and leave the Huns in and for Hungary, where they belong to. OK? Anadolu and Turks alone are great in history, they do not need to "rape" other cultures. Salem -Privateer from Hungary

Hi 217.12.62.106. From the main page:

The names "Hun" and "Hungarian" sound alike, but they have different linguistic background (etymology). The name "Hungarian" is derived from a Turkish phrase "onogur" which means "ten tribes", which possibly refers to a tribal covenant between the different Hungarian tribes that moved into the area of today's Hungary at the end of the 9th century.Deniz^T_C 04:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Denizz: Maybe it can be heard one times in Turkey when I repeat: We "Hungarians" are rather Magyars, with some roots and genes(!), i.e DNA of Magyars, some of Huns, Iranian, etc. and then it is us quite equal, if Turks call it "Hungarian" (in English?). On the other side "Onogur" may mean 10 tribes, but unfortunatelly the Huns called theyselves not so, we call ourselves not so, and nobody calls either Huns or Magyars so. Thus, they are in fact not Onogurs. Onogurs were another bulgaro-turkic mixing living in another area, i.e. NOT with Huns or Magyars, and later splitting in early Bulgars, and Turks wandering forth different ways. Privateer from Hungary

Or, the explanation put forth by Benedek Elek: When the Magyars invaded Pannonia, one of the first fortresses they captured was called Ung. In Hungarian, fortress is vár, and the locative case is marked by the suffix -i. Therefore, someone from the fortress of Ung would be an "Ung-vár-i" in Hungarian, which when latinized, became the basis for the word "Hungary." Korossyl 06:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't know. Please check also Hungarian_people#Etymology. If this Benedek Elek is a reliable source, you might want to update those sections. If not, these are just speculations, hearsays, we can't have them. The explanation seems a little bit stretchy. Deniz^T_C 08:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Benedek Elek was a lovely story-teller for the youth, I also loved, but by no means a historian, You can check it on this authentic site: http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedek_Elek. His books on Hun(garian) mythology and translations from Grimm Brothers, etc., are very popular today too, however not to use here.

The "Fortress of Ung" etymology is a folk etymology originating back to the Middle Ages. If I recall right, it comes from Simon Kezai's Gesta Hunnorum et Hungarorum. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:26, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Right; Benedek wrote at the beginning of the 20th century, when the Hun-Magyar connection was a given. Wikipedia would not consider him a reputable source; I happen to believe him. I was just showing our nationalist friend that among the foremost minds on the "Huns are Hungarians" side, there is still no proposed etymological connection. Korossyl 17:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Nobody said and no one say Huns are Hungarians or vica versa. Sure, Huns were no Turks too. But latest in about 500-400 B.C. meet many peoples of the stepp in North of Black Sea, so Huns and Magyars (and Awars, etc. see also Sauromathia, Khazaria, Kagante) - we can consider following close contacts (mutual actions, genetic mixage, exchange of words) till dead of Western Hun Attila A.D. 435 in his "Hunnic headquarter" the territory of today Hungary (between rivers Duna=Danube and Tisza, with today's memorial)We can also be rather sure by archeology and of written sources, that Magyars were partially and/or occasionally invaded the Carpathian basin in one or two waves "before" final settling there A.D.893.

Thus, some "Hungarians" must be in fact descendant of Hun. Consider too, older sources mention some gens of old world with not true, i.e. other names. We self call ourselves also not "Hungarians", but "Magyars". Besides an important remark toward so-called "Turkic project": No lexica knows anything, or mention any trace about "Turks" before! A.D.600 - quite similar e.g. to "Slaves", evidently by reason of lack of such epigraphics in sources. Therefore Bulgaro-turkic history is another one, having much less, if any at all, to do with Hun-Magyar history in that early period of time. Turkic writer here are unfortunatelly nationalistic blinds, the whole world should be of turkic origin - ridiculous. Privateer from Hungary

nobody wants you to convert turkish. 70 million people is enough for us:) but Huns were one of the biggest Turkic empire in history. its your choice to own this empire. i dont want to say further things about your ancestry. in here its honour to be from Turkic or Turkish, and i dont care whats the meaning of this in europe.--Orkh (talk) 06:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Everbody HUNS=HUNGARİAN thats big nonsense...FOR EXAMPLE: Frenchs are not Germen.But The name of French comes from Germen tribes name.And everbody knows Bulgars were Turk(PROTO-TURKS) Bulgar word also Turkish word.But today they are SLAV.And SLAV .. Slav(SLOVEN) just tribes name But TODAY.And TATARS are TURKİC but Tatar word comes from Mogol tribes name. And Whats meaning of HUN? Tukurgur unogur-Onugur-HUNUGUR . OGUR means=in Turkish ARROW. TEN ARROW. Please everybody can research that and also Byzantine Empire,Sabar Turks,Bulgars,and History of Magyars. And magyars must accept that Turkic tribes were inside Magyars. AND Tell me Who is your Fascist leader ? "KONT PAL TELEKİ" your former prime minister. And He said: We are part of TURAN . He was president of FEDERATİON OF MAGYAR TURAN İF anybody dont know TURAN=PANTURKİSM ........... İf magyars wants to be Turk of course BECAUSE HUNS=TURK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.230.61.156 (talk) 17:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

before being a solid kingdom the european huns conquared hungarian lands and used there as an basement.time by time this land called hungary..magyars and bulgarians are tribes that came from east to current hungarian and bulgarian lands many years after the fall of european hunnic kingdom..through the history they become slavic tribe..so current hungarians are not the grand children of huns..and by the way the huns were a strong and warrior tribe where came from central asia and possibly grand father of the current turks lives on republic of turkey and other nations which races are brother with turkey turkishs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.176.100.236 (talk) 01:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Religion or religions?

Does anyone know what religion or religions they practiced? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Twslandlord (talk • contribs) 16:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Twslandlord 16:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

They practiced shamanism, like most steppe nomads ie: Turkic nomads.

"Hun" is general term applied to many different peoples who had different languages and different religions. Sometimes, Central Asian invaders simply called themselvs "Huns" to intimidate their enemies. The European Huns (under Attila) were not related to the "White Huns", and these "White & Red Huns" were not related to the Yiiongnu, probably the "original Huns".

The classical "Siberian Huns" were most likely akin to other Altaic nomads and practiced all kinds of Shamanist cults, just like later Turks and Mongols. Others that had contacts to the population of the Himalayas probably also practiced Buddhism. Others, such as the Xionites and hephthalites - called "Huns", "White Huns" or "Red Huns" in some sources - were most likely of Iranian origin, and there are traces of Zoroastrism, Manichaeism, and Hinduism. Tājik 14:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HUNS=TURKS, TURKS=HUNS

Huns were the original Asian Turkic nomads!!! i didnt see their ethinicy in the page, where are the editors, are they sleeping? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.101.253.75 (talk) 19:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

Everything about Huns in wikipedia is completely FALSE.Just check the maps.Huns have never been in area near the Baltic sea.Since the ice age, the eastern part of it is populated by Baltic tribes.Who wrote all this nonsense ?

didnt the huns attack some of the baltic tribes??? im probably completely wrong, but i thought they did.67.177.121.141 (talk) 22:31, 25 March 2008 (UTC)SK

'Hunai' are 'guniai/ganiai' Baltic people. This name gunai/guniai/pogonia(the herald of Lithuania and Gudia-Belorussia) means people riding horses and hunting/catching/sheparding herds. JUST CHECK THEIR NAMES. Atila (Eitila or Vaidila means the chief ruler or chief priest), Rugila (a rye), Uldinas (Gulbinas means a male swan), Dengizikas (Danguzhiukas means a child who belongs to heavens), Irnik (Stirniukas means a little roe), Hernak (Sherniukas means a little boar), Ellac (Elniukas means a little deer), Nedava (not giving), Sava (ours), Margus (pied/varicoloured), Bleda (Briedis means a male moose) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.173.120 (talk) 10:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Real and true map with finno-ugric, baltic and other tribes.

http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbutas/figure-36.jpg

As you see, Huns have populated at least 4 times smaller regions, far to east, never in Europe.

[edit] WikiProject Turkey?

Is this article really within the scope of WikiProject Turkey? The article doesn't even mention them, except as part of a citation. I suppose there's no harm; if it attracts more editors, that can only be good, right? Still, I could see a case made for Hungary, or Bulgaria, or say Rome, but... Turkey? Neither does the List of Turkey-related topics mention the Huns. Korossyl 17:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It's up to the members of the Turkey project to include any article they want in their project. -- Stbalbach 12:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

turkish are the grand children of the huns..or we can say relative races.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.176.100.236 (talk) 01:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Huns in India

During 6th century AD, huns (commonly believed to be tribes from the current nothern China) attacked the then Indian king Skandagupta of the Gupta dynasty. Huns lost and went back and did not launch another attack for nearly half a century. However, the second attack seems to have met with greater success than the first one. The second attack hastened the end of Gupta dynasty.

I wonder whether these huns are in any way related to the huns that are under discussion in this article. If anyone can throw more light on this sub-topic it would be good.

As far I know from recent chinese sources the ancient, oldest Huns were Xiungnu in North China no doubt, perhaps I millenia B.C. Chinese began to build The Great Wall against their attacks. By conflicts of expanding China Huns wandered westward splitted in West Huns to the Black Sea, and White huns also called Hephthalites, they went to south (Parthia/Iran) about 106 A.D.(?) and India... Privateer from Hungary

hi i m from Pakistan, i belong to Islamabad, my SUB CAST IS HUN, we called hun, name of our village is hun, some our relatives live in other villages near Taxila, these our relatives also called hun, interesting is in taxila history museum there are some hints that there were some conqurers in this area who called THE HUNS, i still wonder, that my cast is HUN, name of my village is HUN, and all our relatives living around taxila are called HUNS, if we are also HUN AND WHAT IS OUR ORIGIN? I m looking some literature about this, at the moment this little information might help to increase knowledge about HUNS in this particular area. KHAN SHABBIR HUN, VILLAGE HUN ISLAMABAD

78.151.173.120 (talk) 12:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)your Huns actualy are Hans and has nothing to do neither with Hanz family in Germany nor real Huns or hunters in Eangland. These Huns are Baltic tribes called themselves Gunai/Ganiai or herds drovers. However your family name got this name due to Indo-European origin and are originated from hunters78.151.173.120 (talk) 12:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is this map of the huns acurate?

As I know right, also the list below, but those periods are not shown on this map. I think to have a better map of Huns, it must be scanned then I'll upload. Privateer of Hungary 20:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Http://felszerelesek.lovasijaszat.hu/userspace/felszerelesek/nepcsoportok/hunok.jpg

The map in the article is inaccurate. As someone mentioned, the huns never occupied up to the baltic. They might have raided the area, but their base was limited to area of hungary to black sea Hxseek 12:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

-But is the map I posted more accurate? (N33 06:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Appearance

From the article: "The Huns were Turanian/Mongoloid in appearance according to Roman writers." I removed this because do we know that the Romans knew what a Mongoloid person looked like? Moreover, Turanian is not an anthropological type. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 15:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this. I believe, if we should do so, we can restore Mongoloid appearance without any WP:SYN (comparing Priscus' description to Mongoloids). Also why did you remove Turkic? Please read sections below for Turkic. [1] Deniz^T_C 19:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Because it wasn't there originally and such debatable topics don't need to be stated as fact in the introduction. The topic regarding Hunnic language is talked about further down in this article and in the Hunnic language article. Also, the addition of "Turkic-speaking" to the intro line doesn't fit in with the note on the same line. Given the nature of such confederations and the sparse amount of linguistic data for the Huns it isn't easy to make the claim that all Huns spoke a Turkic language. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 18:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hakozen please provide references for your additions that you want in this article: [2] --Vonones 19:21, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe references are necessary because the edits are inappropriate in their location to begin with. The topic of language is dealt with in greater detail elsewhere in the article without the need to bias the very first line. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 19:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, I think this line can also be removed from the intro:

The only extant description of Attila's appearance is that of Priscus: "short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head; his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with gray; and he had a flat nose and a swarthy complexion, showing the evidences of his origin."

It describes Attila, not the Huns in general and sticks out rather superfluously. I think this info can be incorporated another way into the article though. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 19:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, this is not the description by Priscus but rather that by Jordanes. Both can be found on the medieval sourcebook. [3] - KB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.248.222.34 (talk) 17:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

78.151.173.120 (talk) 12:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)Turanians only indicates that these people were Balts, cause 'Tauras' is an ancient extinct animal similar to cow which lived at these times in Lithuania and was bigger than a bison.78.151.173.120 (talk) 12:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Straightforwardness for the Hun bow

In the text of this article, under the heading “European Huns”, 2nd paragraph, 3rd line, the sentence “by using superior weaponry such as the Hun bow” drew my attention. So I clicked, only to find, hocus-pocus!, that a completely different page “Composite bow” opened wide to show a weapon whose invention seems to lie dark in the night of times, much before the Huns left their first traces on the face of the Earth.

So as to fix this, I tried to simply substitute the link Composite bow for Hun bow here, perhaps eventually detailing that the Huns made some important development of the composite bow (but not properly its invention, according to the same article “Composite bow”). As “Huns” is now protected, I obviously could not. But I suggest this to be done. Or something like this, if there has been any link forgering here (beware that I say “if “, please).

I must recognize the possibility that the Huns did in fact invent a new type of bow, but if this were the case all this stuff is getting wrong from the very beginning. For example, there should be an individual article entitled “Hun bow”, duly referenced like the already existing Korean bow and Mongol bow.

Cheers, Zack Holly Venturi 20:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

After a couple of months with no comment, I restore a direct link to Composite bow as such. Should anybody know what a "Hun bow" is, please explain here in the discussion.

Thanks, Zack Holly Venturi 17:25, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Supposedly the Hun bow was asymmetric, having a longer limb on the top than on the bottom. It would have functioned much like a Japanese yumi bow. Also supposedly this is known from grave finds, but unfortunately I couldn't give you any sources for this information. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 20:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] White Huns

I corrected the Britannica and Columbia Encyclopedia reference about the White Huns. The discussion on White Huns should go to the White Huns article as already stated in the article. Regards. E104421 01:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

White Huns were Iranian (Aryan Caucasian) Huns —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.117.157.56 (talk) 18:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources please

I'm very interested in what's the source for these statements:

In the west, Ostrogoths came in contact with the Huns in AD 358 ... The Romans invited the Huns east of Ukraine to settle Pannonia in 361, and in 372 they pushed west led by their king Balimir, and defeated the Alans.

Where do these seemingly precise dates come from? Also I've not seen elsewhere that the Romans should've had contact with the Huns as early as 361. (Peter Heather also consider Balamber/Balamir only attested from Jordanes to be identical of the 5th century Gothic king Valamer. Fornadan (t) 18:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Huns were no Turks

White Huns were Iranian (Aryan Caucasian) Huns. Asian Huns were Yenisseyan People with Germanians and Sarmatians. Asian Huns were NO Turks. About origin of Huns see Michael Schmauder: http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/31/0,1872,2137247,00.html

[edit] So what happened to the Huns after Atilla's death?

Did they disolve amongst the European farmers, as the Dutch version of this article says? Did they go back eastwards? Where they all killed? Or a combination? Are there ANY archologic evidences of their presence in (Western) Europe? Would like to read a decent article about this, as i never seen any of this. Theyre all too vague...--N33 (talk) 08:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Avars (7th century- not Caucasian Avars) were Huns and On-Ogurs were Huns. Akatziris (Ağaçeri) were Huns, Volga Bulgar people were Huns too. But yes, all of they dissolved amongst Germanic and Slavic peoples.--F.Mehmet (talk) 21:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

All but magyars of course.

[edit] "Finnic Huns"?

Orkh is claiming that there were Finnic Huns aka Huns speaking Finnic languages. While there is some 19th and early 20th century stories about that, they are not to be taken seriously. "Finnics as aboriginals of Rome", hah. Unless someone finds reliable and recent information about how Finnics would have wandered to Asia and joined the Huns, I think mention about Finnics should be removed.

I don't want to cross 3RR, so somebody having post-ww2 knowledge about the matter should take care of that.

Wikinist (talk) 20:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly. The sentence is talking about "great confederations of steppe warriors" and not the Huns specifically. It has been a source of contention in the past and I tried one time to fix it. See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huns&oldid=171542169 I take exception to the naming of "Ural" and "Altaic" or "Ural-Altaic" in the sentence since those terms are exclusionary and are not supported by history (ie. Scythians, Saka, Cimmerians) --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 20:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I should add, I'd like to hear from Orkh regarding which Finnic groups were members of a confederation of steppe warriors. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 20:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Me too, I've never heard of peoples speaking Finnic languages being steppe warriors.

Wikinist (talk) 21:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

thank you Bordosy,

theres two .pdf in these pages, those are from from "the new york times"; -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E0CE7DB153BE233A25752C2A9679D946496D6CF -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F07E7DE1139EF34BC4E52DFB266838F669FDE

click the "view full article" button and open the pdf. these articles about northern Turanian tribes called Finno-Ugrics. and yes Finns were also in that confederation. it shouldnt be a surprise because theres not so many nation living in early Hunnic lands.--Orkh (talk) 18:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

and i forget, here is the map of distribition of Finnic people. i didnt know they are still living in South Ural Mountains. so dear Wikinist, you should be more polite and calm i think. respects.--Orkh (talk) 18:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_peoples

Has it occurred to you that they are still living there because they never became steppe nomads and migrated like the Magyars did? --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 19:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow are those old! From 1915 and 1874 respectively. The only Finnic group I know of that could somewhat qualify would be the southern Mari, where they sit at the edge of a cultural border with the Tatars and thus have similar music as Hungarians. But current knowledge on the subject supports the idea that Finnic groups remained as "Forest People" while the southern Ugrics (Magyars and possibly other extinct groups) joined steppe nomad confederations. That is supposedly why there is a split between Finnics and Ugrics to begin with. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 19:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. You know your sources are far too old, still pushing disinformation based to just them. I would be proud if my ancestors were some ultimate Hunnic super-warriors you so admire, but that's not the truth. Or maybe I should put a note on blacks that they are inferior, since same era sources "prove" that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sources#Reliable_sources:

"Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them."

And that's what your "Turanian" point of view nowadays is. You should:

a) Create an article about how history was written a hundred years ago, or

b) make a "Turanian" wiki with fellow believers.

And a Happy New Year! (There's the politity part)

Wikinist (talk) 19:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] protecting the page

second source about Finnic Nomads. http://www.imninalu.net/Huns.htm what do you want from page dear "Wikinist"? i think you want to show your stupid pan-aryan face, but you are at the wrong page. you may stop me, but you cant stop sources. --Orkh (talk) 02:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

That is not a valid source showing that a "Finnic" tribe was a member of a "confederation of steppe warriors". Searching that page only shows two matches for "Finnic".

Descendants of the Hurrites are credited as the founders of the Central Asian kingdom of Khwarezm, which is considered by some scholars as the original land of the Finnic and Altaic peoples, and that is in some way related to the Székely, one of the Hungarian tribes that will be mentioned later in this chapter. and Their heritage has been transferred to many Eurasian peoples, including the Uyghurs of Western China and several Turkic and Ugro-Finnic tribes.

I'm sorry, Orkh, but "Finno-Ugric" or "Ugro-Finnic" is not the same thing as a "Finnic" tribe. Neither is Khwarezm a "confederation of steppe warriors". --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 02:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Iranian problem again

Sbordosy claim that iranians were the part of huns. the term "iranian" is not so old, and being saka or alan is not the same of being iranian, as being hun is not the same as being turkish. so iranian part in identity should be remove i think.--Orkh (talk) 02:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I'm LMAO. Orkh has reading comprehension issues. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 02:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's review the disputed sentence yet again. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 02:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Recent genetic research shows that each of the great confederations of steppe warriors were not ethnically homogeneous, but rather unions of multiple ethnicities that could have been Turkic, Tungusic, Mongolic, Finno-Ugric, Iranic, etc.

I'm not happy that Orkh removes my above comment and citation of the disputed sentence (not once, but twice) when I'm trying to elicit discussion about it in order to get it improved. I see his actions as highly uncivil. Moreover, I've tried to point out several times in above discussion that the disputed sentence is general and is not a specific reference to the Huns, but I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall at this point. How much more explicit can I get? The sentence says "each of the great confederations" not "the Hun confederation". Additionally, I'm not familiar with the Walter Pohl citation or the claim that the result is due to a recent genetic research (what research?) so I think there is still much room for improvement. But such improvement I think cannot come at the cost of continued unsourced claims by Orkh. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 19:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced claims get removed. That part's pretty easy. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Removing "Iranic" to a separate sentence and adding "Ural-Altaic" absolutely does not work because the evidence does not support this claim. There are two main logic problems with it:

1. Scythians, Sarmatians, et al. were not limited to the Caucases.
2. Finno-Ugric languages did not obtain loanwords from the Iranian languages in the Caucases.

And there is a third logic problem with it related to paragraph integrity:

1. The first sentence is about "each of the great confederations of steppe warriors" while the second sentence is referencing a specific point in time (ie. when the Huns were active).

--Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 15:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I've been attempting good faith edits when changing around the paragraph and explicitly adding a list of example steppe confederations meant in the sentence in order to clarify the situation. Instead Orkh feels justified to revert those edits without discussion or even comment. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 02:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I have seen this before. Fundamentalists like him do anything to get their fringe-theories shown. They have so strong beliefs that they deny all counter-evidences, even if they would outweight their belief in superior manner. It's basically just same with holocaust deniers, fundamentalist christians/islamists, extreme left, etc. They want to say holocaust/gulag/evolution theory/all the history from past 50 years is false propaganda by an evil organisation. It's really sad that there are peoples honestly believing that way, but that's how strongly adopted information sticks, even if incorrect.

Too often has "consensus" been made between scientific consensus and fringe-theories. This is one fault with wiki-format.

Finnics were connected to Huns in order to make them inferior, but this individual is using the same formula to make them superior, Turanian overmen. That is almost cute, but not cute enough to be put in Wikipedia.

Err, "dear Wikinist, you should be more polite and calm", yet he also enlightens us by saying

"your stupid pan-aryan face"

(personal attacks redacted)

(filth redacted)

Wow... I mean... this is too great. It's just... wow.

Wikinist (talk) 10:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

ok, but i cant find any source about Iranic identity found in Hungary, or somewhere else...--Orkh (talk) 18:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• Let's not reduplicate Orkh's filth; if Orkh does it again he will be banned. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Finno-Ugric Clans of Huns and never lived Persians in the Empire

in my sources, there are not any evidence about Iranian/Persian existence in the great hunnic empire. so, Sbordosy where are your sources. and wikinist if there were not Finno-Ugric living in the empire so where were these people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_peoples come from. so why dont we create a new empire, that iranians live and finno-ugrics out. we may call it Wikinist empire or something like that? i think its a good idea, but please live the page in peace--Orkh (talk) 20:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

by the way, wikinist still claiming about finno-ugric is a "linguistic" not racial. but sources says: Finnic tribes were living in north Hunnic empire and todays south Ural mountain. by the way being finno-ugric is more racial than being Uralic.--Orkh (talk) 20:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The sentence is NOT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT HUNS. No one here is claiming that there were Iranics in the Hun empire. Please improve your English reading comprehension. And learn to spell my name. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 21:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Finno-Ugric language spread to Finns' genetical ancestors probably from Comb Ceramic culture 4200-2000 BC. Irish swithed their language to English easily, as did countless of other peoples. I have no idea what keeps populations from changing their language and culture. Moreover, I don't understand how Turkish-looking people would have become European-looking in less than 1500 years. It's impossible. And no, Finno-Ugric nor Uralic was not a racial or ethnic group by that time. Some Finnics were conquered by Huns, just like some Slavs. Were Slavs Huns then? Those are just bad arguments, or in fact just personal attacks.

Wikinist (talk) 21:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

It is ridiculous, this has been going on since December 27th. Where is everyone? I'm asking for RfC on this issue because of the length of time. I've never asked for RfC before so hopefully I'm doing this correctly. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 21:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RfC: Ethnic composition illustrative sentence

This RfC is regarding a single sentence that illustrates the possible ethnic composition of the Huns. There has been a revert war going on regarding this single sentence since December 27th. This is far too long. The dispute revolves around a single sentence in Huns#Origin_and_identity which has served as a front for other revert wars in the past. Which version of the sentence should be used or rather is the sentence about the Huns or not?

The modern opinion[7] is that each of the large confederations of steppe warriors (such as the Scythians, Xiongnu, Huns, Avars, Khazars, Cumans, Mongols, etc.) were not ethnically homogeneous, but rather unions of multiple ethnicities such as Turkic, Tungusic, Ugric, Iranic, and Mongolic peoples.

Or

A genetic research[7] states that each of the large confederations of steppe warriors were not ethnically homogeneous, but rather unions of multiple ethnicities of Uralic and Altaic clans such as Turkic, Tungusic, Finnic, Ugric and Mongolic peoples.

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• The sentence is attempting to illustrate the point that the Hun ethnic identity is complicated by the fact that confederations of steppe warriors tend to have been composed of multiple ethnicities and then goes on to list historic ethnicities that have been involved in such confederations. I feel like I've tried multiple times to point out to Orkh that the sentence is not a list of the ethnic composition of the Huns but he keeps reverting the page and making claims that it is. I've also tried to improve the context of the sentence by moving it to a place in the section where it would make more sense, but this also got reverted. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 22:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Comments

I'm trying to decrease time used to this, so I just quote myself:

I don't know whatever to laugh or cry with you. I haven't claimed of attacks to my user page or threatened with admins, and I don't know who is "humanisticus", but oh yes will I fix your claims.

Orkh believs evil Aryans (Indo-Europeans) are blinding us from the true history, while 19th century race theories are true, so he uses them as sources.

He said to me:

"im not a nationalist, but i think you should search about your history again. your nation has lived with russian, sweden, and nazi domination(who were all aryan peoples). of course your history changed. the fact that you read your history in "european union" books, in EU mind. sorry but they are too far from the original point. its so bitter to see that a guy want to destroy his/her own history.

go to turania.com and read original texts from non-european sources and non-european people. respects--Orkh (talk) 21:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)"

www.Turania.com is pretty much like Flat Earth Society, a group of fanatic believers collectivily denying basic knowledge. I guess all having studied history knows absurdness of most 19th century theories, but oh wait, they're Aryan propaganda, I forgot.

So, do we want to believe revivals of racistic race-theories, or present modern historians' and scientists' views? I have wasted enough my time with this Turkis nationalist. I would be happy if Finnics had a history as mighty warriors, but its a factual error, what I have taken to my burden. An admin is needed to cool things down, I've grown bored to this.

Wikinist (talk) 22:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Core of this is about Finnics' role, which I haven't seen being present in any proper source. Also, Orkh rejects sources saying Indo-European Iranics might have something to do with steppe warriors.

I don't really like using time to this, but I think claims like that makes Wikipedia a joke. If I just saw modern and trustfull experts with authority addressing those things, knowing it's probably true, I could throw this matter into a trash can and go sleep.

Wikinist (talk) 23:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• User:Orkh is clearly pushing his original research, inspired by some well-known hypothetical theories. He has provided no sources for the changes and has added his theories to other articles as well (all concerning the issues, perhaps a bit over 10 articles). It is hard for us normal editors to keep eye on all those articles and participate in edit wars because of him. As he hasn't shown any sign of cooperation or using references, I support a block since Wikipedia does not do own research. --Pudeo⺮ 14:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I only revert "Origins and Identity" part of the page. and ive never called any race as "devil" or something like that. Wikinist has personal problems with me. as you see above, after my sources, he changed his opinion interestingly. as he claimed before, there were no Finnic people living in the Hunnic Empire, but now he talk about the existence of Finnic slaves. (the sources show that Finic people were one of the the main power in the empire). by the way, you see at the top, (last years event) Sbordosy also claimed that there were no Turks living in the empire. but after Hakozen showed the sources the page become completely different. Sbordosy was also played a big role of Hakozen's ban. so, admins must be careful about blocks. truths are punishing in here.--Orkh (talk) 16:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There is some sort of English communication problem going on here. In how many different ways can I say it? Domak Hunnung imperiyazıda churtaar chonlar dugayında sögleveyn turar. (The sentence is not talking about peoples who lived in the Hun empire.) --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 19:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

"but now he talk about the existence of Finnic slaves", I said Slavs. Some Mordvics might well have co-operated with Huns like some Indo-Europeans did. Still, calling them "steppe riders" seems out of place.

Wikinist (talk) 23:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Slavs or Mordvics, you'd still need a source supporting claim that rather than a vague association from a source that names Finnic people as Turanians. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 23:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Flat Earth Society? but new york times doesnt say so ; -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E0CE7DB153BE233A25752C2A9679D946496D6CF -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F07E7DE1139EF34BC4E52DFB266838F669FDE

by the way, i dont want you to go turania.com, because im not sure about their hospitality for who may claim Finns are the descends of socrates or alfred nobel. its more healty for you to stay at home and watching finnish sci-fiction movies. but please dont forget to visit here because in other sites you cant find anybody who claims non Turk hunnic empire or maybe non italian roman empire --Orkh (talk) 00:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Limit your Straw man usage. Your imaginary friend might have talked about Socrates or Turks, and you have confused him with me. And about New York Times' comments, even Encyclopedia Britannica itself said "Mentally the negro is inferior to the white... the arrest or even deterioration of mental development [after adolescence] is no doubt very largely due to the fact that after puberty sexual matters take the first place in the negro's life and thoughts.

Lets run and add that to articles conserning to them! Seriously, all these writings are just racistic White Supremacy stuff. I have no idea why a Turkish wants to even spit to these.

Wikinist (talk) 01:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

That's an easy answer. Turanism is a theory looking for evidence to support it instead of finding evidence to _formulate_ a theory. Besides, the sources Orkh provides don't say anything explicitly about Finnics being a member tribe in the Hun confederation. All they say is Finnics are Turanians. So he's doing original research by making the association himself. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 01:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Include the parenthetical - it's the only difference between the two sentences, and it adds useful information. I don't see any problem with it. MilesAgain (talk) 01:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Facts vs theories - pls remove from "WikiProject Turkey"

The main issue with this article is that it states (briefly) Huns were PROBABLY of Turkic origin, however, we have to face the fact that WE DO NOT KNOW for sure. So putting this to "WikiProject Turkey" is not corresponding to science.

• They had a vast empire, and the capital was not in Turkey
• We have absolutely no idea of their language, not even of its kind (only theory!)
• Argueing that Attila is derived from Turkish "Atil", can be easily counterattacked by any other languages
• Argueing they dress like Turkic people is not an arguement, other horseriding ethnics had similar clothing

I have information that in Armenia they have found a Hunnic writing, it is now under investigation if it is genuine. It is not Turkish.

So please, with respect to all Turkish people, (especially to those extreme-nationalists), remove this article from this Project. Abdulka (talk) 21:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Something to ponder

What's the relation between Huns and Hans (Chinese)? They both are spelled the same way, aren't they? Bennylin (talk) 04:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Koreans call themselves "Han" too i think. So i dont think those words are related...--N33 (talk) 05:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)