Talk:Humpty Dumpty

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in Roud folk song index

Removed this:

For more information, try http://www.zelo.com/family/nursery/humpty.asp

to Talk because it only gives one of the many origin theories. Caltrop

All the king's horses and all the king's men

What did they expect the horses to do? I doubt they would have helped much :/

So, I've been wondering: if Humpty Dumpty was originally a cannon or a king, why is he now an egg? There's nothing in the rhyme about him being an egg, except the fragility and maybe an allusion to roundness in the name. But it's not really obviously about some egg-man.

One person I asked about this suggested that it was a back-formation. In other words, long after people had forgotten the origin of the rhyme, they tried to figure out what it meant. It has the kind of nonsense form of an old riddle, and one solution to such a riddle would be "an egg" -- eggs are fragile and break when they fall.

The problem with this is that it's a really bad riddle. The riddleness is that eggs break and can't be reassembled -- so what? Most things can't be reassembled when broken. And you don't often keep eggs on high places, just for that reason!

Anyways, this started bothering me recently, and now I can't get it out of my head. Bleh. -- ESP 05:37 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't think it being a bad riddle is here or there. It's obvious to us, but wouldn't be if you didn't know. It's as bad as that one about the sunbeam "(some name, of the same form as 'humpty dumpty') on the king's kitchen door". Plus, I'm fairly sure there are versions of Humpty Dumpty in other languages taking very similar forms, but with different names. I'll have a look. Skittle 19:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Hickamore, Hackamore, on the King's kitchen door;

All the King's horses, and all the King's men, Couldn't drive Hickamore, Hackamore, Off the King's kitchen door From Squirrel Nutkin. Possibly invented by BP?

Contents

[edit] Fritzgerald Herring

Humpty Dumpty is in various "poems" from Fritzgerald Herring ( not spelt how i did) in the earlier rhyms it was allready established that he was an egg…

…however the final part of the rhyme is the bit that was remembered…

No-one has mentioned the most likely Civil War connection. This appears in the Richard Rodney Bennet musical, which goes by the title 'All the Kings Men'. In this Humpty Dumpty is a floating bridge, built across the River Severn by the Royalist Army. It sunk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glyn powell (talk • contribs)

[edit] Testudo Theory

So I follow the link to testudo and find out that it is not a wheeled Roman war machine designed to cross moats and scale walls, but rather a shield formation for infantry (which is all I have ever known it to be). A few minutes of Googling leads me to believe that this roman war machine with the same name never in fact existed beyond the bound of HumpyDumptyology. Perhaps this theory should be removed on the suspicion that it is mistaken nonsense.

Woot!

[edit] Colchester

Have added a verse to the "Colchester" part of the Origins section. I've unfortunately been unable to find a source for it online and it's mostly based on personal memories so may need to be removed unless someone can find a source; I felt it was relevant, though. --Black Butterfly 12:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Application in cognitive science

It shouldn't be difficult to issue a couple of references, or two. User:Ejrrjs says What? 23:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just another explanation

I've found this article - hope you can mention it in the main article of this site. [1] --129.13.186.2 23:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definately an Egg?

I read in The Pedant's Revolt (a book dedicated to correcting common misconceptions) that Humpty Dumpty was originally a cannon, and was first portrayed as an egg by Lewis Carol. This may or may not be true, but surely the very presence of unsureness flies in the face of the first section of the article, which says that the answer is not very well known and that he was definately an egg. Daniel (☎) 13:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree the article should be changed to state that Humpty Dumpty is often portrayed as an egg, but that there are other theories about the history of the rhyme (personally I believe the cannon story - but I'm probably biased living near Colchester). Certainly the sentence 'The fact that Humpty Dumpty is an egg' is far too strong and not a neural point of view (so I've toned that down). Ecrips 13:40, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I haven't read the Pedant's Revolt, but in my experience Pedants are as likely to commit errors as to uncover them. For what it's woth, the OED definition is:
A. n.
1. A drink made with ‘ale boiled with brandy’ (B.E. Dict. Cant. Crew, a1700).
1698 W. KING tr. Sorbière's Journ. Lond. 135 (Farmer) He answer'd me that he had a thousand such sort of liquors, as Humtie Dumtie, Three Threads. 1699 [see HUGMATEE]. 1837 DISRAELI Venetia I. xiv, They drank humpty-dumpty, which is ale boiled with brandy.
2. A short, dumpy, hump-shouldered person. In the well-known nursery rime or riddle (quoted below) commonly explained as signifying an egg (in reference to its shape); thence allusively used of persons or things which when once overthrown or shattered cannot be restored.
1785 GROSE Dict. Vulg. T., Humpty-Dumpty, a little humpty dumpty man or woman; a short clumsey person of either sex. 1810 Gammer Gurton's Garland Part III. 36 [Not in Ritson's ed. c1760, nor in the reprint of that in 1810] Humpty dumpty sate on a wall, Humpti dumpti had a great fall; Threescore men and threescore more, Cannot place Humpty dumpty as he was before. 1843 HALLIWELL Nursery Rhymes Eng. 113 [giving prec. version adds] Note. Sometimes the last two lines run as follows: All the king's horses and all the king's men, Could not set Humpty Dumpty up again. 1848 Blackw. Mag. July 39 To try the game of Humpty-Dumpty and to fall. 1872 ‘L. CARROLL’ Thro' Looking-Gl. vi. 114 ‘It's very provoking’, Humpty Dumpty said,..‘to be called an eggvery!’ 1883 J. W. SHERER At Home & in India 193 She..could not, by all the miracles of millinery, be made other than a humpty-dumpty. 1896 Westm. Gaz. 26 June 3/1 Now that the Education Humpty-Dumpty has tumbled off the wall, and is hopelessly poached for the present year, and all the king's horses and all the king's men can't set him up again, the life has gone out of Parliament.
(In the nursery rime or riddle there are numerous variations of the last two lines, e.g. ‘Not all the king's horses and all the king's men Could [can] set [put] Humpty Dumpty up again [in his place again, together again]’.)
B. adj. Short and fat. Also allusively referring to the Humpty-Dumpty of the nursery rime.
1785 [see A. 2]. 1828 Craven Dial., Humpty-dumpty, short and broad, ‘He's a lile humpty-dumpty fellow’. 1898 Westm. Gaz. 9 July 6/3 To set the humpty-dumpty conversion firmly on its legs.
b. Applied to a mechanical rhythm, as in the nursery rime.
1887 SAINTSBURY Hist. Elizab. Lit. iv. (1890) 128 The same humpty-dumpty measure of eights and sixes.
My recent edit links to false etymology; I have tried to avoid asserting that all the postulated theories are such; clearly, anyone believing one of them must agree that all the others are false. Thus I think the link is fair. jnestorius(talk) 19:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not convinced by your statement that the first printed form is a riddle - do you have any reference to back this up? The wording according to your OED quote 'Cannot place Humpty dumpty as he was before' seems to back the Colchester theory as the 'threescore men and threescore more' couldn't hoist the cannon back onto the wall. It is hard to see how this version of the rhyme could be a riddle about eggs! It would seem to be in this case that we should be careful not to make claims about it's origin but to simply discuss the possibilities. Oh, and I've no problem with the false etymology link - they can't all be right! Ecrips 09:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I have heard that the 1810 printing explicitly states that the rhyme is a riddle and the answer is that HD was an egg, but I don't have access to a copy of the book. As regards the threescore men bit: that's the point of the riddle. It takes a lot of men to haul a cannon, or any heavy object, but no amount of men can restore a smashed egg to its pristine state. And it would be nice to get an earliest recorded date for each of the other theories appearing in print; the more recent this is, the less plausible the explanation is. jnestorius(talk) 08:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Well http://www.msu.edu/~ereksonj/humpty/humpty.htm says that the 1810 printing "did not give the answer away in the book" and suggests that it is "plausible ... the rhyme was not a riddle". But obviously that's not very conclusive. The closest I could find online to the 1810 printing was http://www.presscom.co.uk/nursery/nrs_gg1.html (text version) which I'm guessing is what the OED describes as the 1810 reprint of Ritson's ed. c1760 - anyway it doesn't include Humpty Dumpty and states "Embellished with a variety of Cuts". It would be nice to know how it was presented in the original 1810 print - certainly in the version online there are pictures for almost every page and it would be interesting to know if there was a picture on the Humpty Dumpty page or not (and whether it was an egg!) Ecrips 11:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The Erekson paper is worth linking to, I think. jnestorius(talk) 12:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] French

I am a French native speaker and there are some facts that I've found strange in this article.

Firstly, I've never heard of a similar riddle named "Boule Boule". I did a quick Google search that didn't come with anything related to Humpty Dumpty. I don't say that it doesn't exist, but I wouldn't mention it in the article because I don't think it is famous enough in the French-speaking world to be mentionned.

Thanks; I've recast this to allow for the obscurity of the foreign versions. jnestorius(talk) 12:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, the "phonetic variation" of near-sounding French words doesn't sound at all like the original rhyme (atleast if the original rhymes is pronounced properly). It could sound a little like the original rhyme if it is pronounced with an exagerated French accent. Even with the exagerated accent, there is no way Anal deux qui noeuds ours, anal deux qui noeuds s'y mènent would sound like All the king's horses and all the king's men. Also, the translation is quite strange. The last two verses are so grammatically incorrect in French that I don't think someone could make sense of it and translate it (except maybe a computer)!

(en anglais on dit Last 2 lines, not verses.) The English retranslation makes clear the nonsensicality of the French "original". I get the impression the French version is intended to be spoken by a native English speaker with some knowledge of French, rather than a native French speaker. That said, I would like to see an experiment with a French speaker reciting it to an anglophone audience, to see if they "get" it: does anyone know if this has ever been done? jnestorius(talk) 12:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually even in English a verse is a line of poetry... but many people use it to mean a stanza. Would this version be better? I am not sure about the copyright.

Un petit d'un petit S'étonne au hall Un petit d'un petit Ah! degrés de folles Un dol de qui ne sort cesse Un dol de qui ne se mène Qu'importe un petit d'un petit Tout Gai de Reguennes

Would it be possible for someone who speaks French to record either the version above or the one in the article now and upload it? (For the technical side of how to upload it, I'm not exactly sure how to get it in the Commons (or wherever it's supposed to go), but it should be uploaded as an ogg vorbis file. Perhaps someone can explain better.) I have enough of an understanding of basic French pronunciation to appreciate it, but it would be interesting to hear a Francophone speaking it...
Also, what are the rules about editing talk pages? The unsigned edit above with the alternate version has single carriage returns in the Edit:Talk page, but they don't show up in the saved Talk page. Is it not wiki-kosher to fix it so it displays properly? cluth 17:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


HI I'M MADISON AND I LIKE EGGS!!=]

[edit] the surgery

Anyone know about the surgery known colloquially as the "humpty-dumpty"?

[edit] Pickin' up the pieces

I've heard of an 1810 novel (I think), Gammer Gurton's Garland, in which Humpty is reassembled. Can anybody name the author & include it here?

[edit] Mentally retarded boy?

The article lists the following as a possible "origin":

According to many legends, Humpty Dumpty was a mentally retarded child. The story states that this boy was sitting on a stone wall during the American Independence War and saw several soldiers marching along a pathway. Thinking that these soldiers were allies he shouted to them in greeting. Upon hearing "Soldiers soldiers!" the men shot at the boy with the reasoning that he was an enemy. Therefore, "Humpty Dumpty had a great fall" and he could not be saved from the injuries he received from that fall. The Mother Goose story was then written in rememberence for this boy but in a heartfelt gentle way in which no child reading the story would know the horrible truth.

I find this implausible in the extreme. Any supporting evidence for this story? Anyone got a cite? -- Narsil 01:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

And seeing no discussion, and no citations offered, I'm nuking it. -- Narsil 22:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Humpty Dumpty as a Tragic Hero

I remember seeing a video in English in which a college professor laid down the idea of the Humpty Dumpty rhyme as a tragedy and of Humpty Dumpty being an archetype of a tragic hero. Basically, the idea is this; why in the world is an egg sitting on a WALL? Why is it in such a place that it might be damaged? The answer is that Humpty Dumpty, like a tragic hero, has gone into the one situation that will lead to his downfall, and has done so willingly. Looking at Romeo and Juliet, the only people in the whole of Verona they cannot fall in love with each other, and they proceed to do that. From there on, a tragic hero tries to stay on top of the wall as long as possible and then falls.

While I can't source the video right now, I can source an .edu site which contains pretty much the same information.

http://nzr.mvnu.edu/faculty/trearick/english/rearick/introlit/RealEducation/Shakespeare.html#humpty display text

I can also, for whatever its worth (probably not much), link to a forum post.

http://mb.sparknotes.com/mb.epl?r=1&b=849&m=349115&f=1&t=139300 Jaimeastorga2000 07:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Swedish

Not sure if the name "Lille Trille" is commonly used for Humpty Dumpty in Sweden. I think "Klumpe Dumpe" is the name used. I'm going to change it to say only norwegian, unless someone objects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poposhka (talk • contribs) 19:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually i'm just going to change it, i'm sure i've never heard or seen that name being used in Swedish literature. --Popoi 19:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Humpty as a sinner

I heard once that the rhyme is a reference to every person who, in Christian theology, looses their white perfection after The Fall and even the greatest powers of the earth, the kind's army, cannot repair a person. Sorry I don't have a reference. --Ephilei (talk) 20:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Humpty is Humanity

This is just a theory of mine so dont punish me please... this is how i would interpret the original riddle posed if it accompanied a picture of an egg-man sat on a wall...

If and i say IF Humpty is an egg, could that egg represent an embryotic humanity, sat on a wall... sat on the fence - a term we use to describe a situation where a person does not decide... this could be the fence or wall dividing/defining good and evil - which way will he (humanity) fall???

however, he is an egg and therefore possesses the potential to hatch - like an egg into a phoenix (of the golden age) and fly away avoiding the paradox of the duality of good/evil... in the Kybalion of Hermetic philosophy it states "all parodoxes will be reconciled"

i'm sorry i dont know how to insert an image, however, search in google images for "paradigm shift" and look for a picture of a chick hatching from its egg, exclaiming "wow! paradigm shift!"

then also visit this article i found called "human transformation" here:

http://ecotopian.blogspot.com/2007/10/human-transformation_18.html

so humanity is faced with a choice...

the reason the kings men couldnt put him together again is possibly because he had flown away just leaving his shell.


The fall is perhaps to put us off course - i.e. to delay our natural evolution which has to be a fact - everything is evolving all the time! the ultimate result to return to source - enligtenment

i say that all the kings horses and all the kings men, are of the devil and they spread dirty rumours just in case any future Humpties thought they could do he same!

Aliia777 (talk) 04:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)