Talk:Humid subtropical climate

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Why does there need to be citition for Cincinnati but not the other cities listed? It is clearly in a transition zone and a simple search and glance at a USDA zone map will evidence this, also, check out the range maps for indicator plants such as magnilia and so on. I'm removing the citation needed for Cincinnati because it is no more needed than any other city listed. here's one just from a brief search: http://www.answers.com/topic/subtropics —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.173.226.236 (talk) 19:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


I am currently exploring how to wikify articles properly, so it would be great if someone could voice their opinion on what else should be improved or if this is okay. I have not yet removed the wikify template.

Contents

[edit] Subtropical?

Doesn't "subtropical" mean "BELOW the tropic"? How can places well ABOVE the tropics be characterized as "subtropical"? Why not simply "tropical"? Tmangray 22:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

No offense, but you sound like an airhead. This is the dumbest post I've ever read. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.185.189 (talk) 06:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] difference

Whats the difference between Humid subtropical climate, and subtropical climate.--67.141.107.247 22:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

There are dry subtropical climates -- steppes and deserts -- as well as the dry-summer Mediterranean climates that also have mild winters.

Thus from west to east in America....

San Francisco, California... Mediterranean Csb Stockton, California ... Mediterranean Csa San Diego, California... Dry-summer steppe BShs or BSks

Definitely subtropical due to the absence of a real winter...

Calexico, California... Hot desert, winter max BWhs Phoenix, Arizona... Hot desert, no max BWh El Paso, Texas Hot desert, summer max BWhw Midland, Texas Hot steppe, summer max BShw

Again subtropical due to the absence of a cold winter....


Dallas, Texas Subtropical moist Cfa

even if Dallas barely has enough rainfall to be considered 'humid' and looks as if it is in a semi-desert

Jackson, Mississippi Subtropical moist Cfa

That's the distinction.

--Paul from Michigan 04:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Southeastern Pennsylvania

The climate of southeastern Pennsylvania and southern New Jersey is markedly different from those of central, northern, and western Pennsylvania -- decidely warmer, and more similar to that of northern Virginia.

Some climate maps put the Cfa/Dfa line north of new York City; some put it south of New York City. None put it south of Philadelphia. --Paul from Michigan 04:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

SE Pennsylvania and southern New Jersey are really in the transition zone, with Philadelphia experiencing an average annual minimum temperature of 46 degrees F, just below the 50 degree threshold for subtropical. But Baltimore's annual minimum temperature is 52 degrees, making it just inside the true subtropical climate zone. Baltimore city and the region surrounding the chesapeake Bay are truly subtropical, if barely. the transition zone begins at Baltimore's western suburbs, although Washington DC in in the transition zone. the updated map reflects this. See the climate section for Maryland, and this will corroborate. If anything, Nashville's annual minimum of 49 degrees would put it in the transition.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Strongbad1982 (talk • contribs)

That is the 0°C/-3°C (32-27°F) distinction. The former distinct (freeze line) seems to make more sense; I'd hardly call those areas "subtropical". CrazyC83 02:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
In addition, if the -3°C (27°F) line was used, a few areas on the east coast (such as Martha's Vineyard, Nantucket and parts of Cape Cod) would locally fall in the Cfb oceanic climate (since the ocean influence would keep summer temperatures around 70-71°F for a median and they have winter median temperatures just under freezing). They instead have a local Dfb in a general Dfa region. CrazyC83 22:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that Dallas looks like a semi-desert. The Dallas area has more in common with the eastern part of Texas(piny woods), not the far western part(desert), looks more like a wooded Prairie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ultrasonic128 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Milan

Milan in Italy does have summers warmer than 22 degr Celsius, the coldest winter month has an average of 1 degr C and there is, unlike most of the mediterranean, frequent summer precipitation. See here. Whether Britannica labels the climate continental or not does not say very much; many of the areas in the United States mentioned in the article could be labeled continental as well. The temperature distinction between the humid continental and humid subtropical is the -3 degr C (0 C in the US) in the coldest month. The label subtropical might seem strange for a location where there might be snowing in winter, but that goes for many locations in the US and China as well...There is an area from the Po valley in northern Italy and in parts of the Balkan which fullfills all criteria given in the article. Orcaborealis 10:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Source for summer precipitation here. Orcaborealis 10:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Climate is not just a matter of matching average temperatures and preciptation. Milan is not subtropical, as Zurich is not subtropical and have a very similar climate. The Po valley has literally nothing to do with subtropical climate regions. Dantadd 21:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
So? Well, then you are clearly mistaken, Zurich is actually much cooler in summer and a little colder in winter, as you can see here; the summer is not warm enough to qualify. You talk as if you know something more than anyone else, but you provide little or no source for your claims. I have provided a credible source. Give some sources and tell us what more we should know. Otherwise, your changes to the article should be reverted. Orcaborealis 22:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
No, no...you have an unsourced claim, my source was already given: the Milan article on Enc. Britannica. Please give a reliable source that states CLEARLY that Milan has a subtropical climate. You're the only one trying to transform the Northern Italy in a subtropical island in Europe, but I'm not sure what is your motivation. I've lived long years in Milan and a whole year in Zurich and I can assure the both cities have a very similar weather. In spite of it, labelling the Po valley as subtropical is so ridiculous that simply I can't believe that there is a discussion about that. Dantadd 01:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
My only motivation is to get it right. The only determinants in the Koppen climate classification is average monthly and year temperature, and sesonality of precipitation. I have provided sources proving that the warmest month is above 22 degr C, that the coldest month is no colder than 1 degr Celsius, and that Milan, unlike the rest of the Mediterranean, get a lot of precipitation in summer. But here is another source clearly stating that Milan indeed has a Cfa climate: National Geographics climate map, which can be viewed here. Orcaborealis 07:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Another map, climate map of Europe, this time from the worldbook encyclopedia, clearly stating a humid subtropical climate in parts of Northern Italy, a narrow strip on the Balkans and in a large part of Bulgaria can be viewed here. I would also suggest you stop using words like ridiciulous. Orcaborealis 11:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
And take a look at the climate map based on the Koppen classification here. This time from Wikipedia itself. That's three good sources clearly stating humid subtropical in this area. Can we now put this back in the article? Orcaborealis 11:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Information about the Ispra station near Milan clearly states a humid subtropical climate as seen here.Orcaborealis 13:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
From the journal History of Meteorology (2) 2005, a scientific journal. Look at the map at page 6, displaying climate regions in Europe and the Middle East. Again, Cfa - humid subtropical - in part of Northern Italy and part of the Balkans. The article is here (pdf)

I use the words I find appropriate, and ridiculous is the definition of the comparision that you want to make. You simply want to inform the readers that Milan (or Ljubljana by the maps you've shown) have the same climate of Northern Taiwan, Chekiang or others areas that have average annual temperatures higher than 17ºC when the average annual temperature for Milan is 11ºC[1]. This map (http://www.worldbook.com/wb/images/content_spotlight/climates/europe_climate.gif) is simply wrong! It's totally insane to state that the Trentino-Alto Adige, the Friuli-Venezia Giulia (in Italy), the western part of Slovenia and even Sarajevo have a humid subtropical climate. It's totally wrong and there's no reliable data that could back up this awfully done map. Take a look again in the map and you will see that all the eastern Italian Alps range is classified as "humid subtropical"...it's a joke, isn't it?

You're simply saying that Trento or Udine have the same climate as Taipei or Jacksonville...it's really out of the question and it demonstrates a total lack of knowledge about the climate in this region of the world.

This map (http://www3.shastacollege.edu/dscollon/images/Maps-Images/world_climate_map.jpg) is another example of bad work. It states that Pittsburgh has the same climate of Brisbane (Australia) or even Hong Kong! So, these maps are not even a remote reliable source, and to find it out it's enough to check and compare just a pair of cities with completely different climates and average temperatures.

This map (http://koeppen-geiger.vu-wien.ac.at/pdfs/kottek_et_al_2006_A1.pdf) is little more accurate and puts Milan as Cfb. Nevertheless, it's really useless to use these letters to define the climate of a city. Milan, Trento, Ljubljana, Sarajevo or Pittsburgh will never be subtropical cities. Dantadd 15:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, you are right about the last map being more accurate...and if you looked more carefully you might notice a darker green color in parts of the Po valley, the same color as in large parts of the eastern USA...Cfa climate! The difference from Cfb to Cfa is summer temperature...and the threshold is 22 degr Celsius in the warmest month. Milan has a warmest month of about 23C...and, if anything, temperatures in Europe is going up. You did not mention my two last sources, among them a scientific journal...Milan fullfills the criteria as Cfa climate.
You are mostly arguing against broad climate categories. They are always a bit arbitrary...within the Dfc climate, the coldest month might have an average of -4C, as in Tromsø, or -35C, as in parts of Siberia. Orcaborealis 18:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem is not in the letters you choose, that are an arbitrary convention. You can stipulate the convenient letters for the climate of Milan and that's fine. The real problem is on the the adjective you want to use. "Subtropical" simply doesn't apply to Northern Italy, Slovenia or Croatia. The definition of "subtropical" is totally inadequate for that region of the World. Dantadd 22:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Depends on how you define "subtropical", but I tend to agree with you there, and I see you agree about Cfa for Milan, Slovenia and Croatia. There should have been a different name for the Cfa category, or split in two. This goes for many categories though. Orcaborealis 23:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, many maps use the C/D line at -3C (27F) rather than 0C (32F). CrazyC83 22:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

How about humid mesothermal? Oh, and we should use -3C as the c/d line because Koppen did. If the climate was called humid mesothermal, no one would complain about Milan and other places, such as New York City. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Press olive, win oil (talk • contribs) 23:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Charleston, WV & Roanoke, VA

Can anyone prove that Charleston and Roanoke is is in the Humid Continental climate zone? Those cities are in the mountains, but they are not high enough to make a huge difference. The coldest areas of West Virginia and Virginia are in the Allegheny Mountain range. Neither city is located in that area. The Punk 08:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the best examples are smaller towns (i.e. Blacksburg, VA and Beckley, WV), but they have characteristics of both in their general vicinities, depending on altitude and which side of the line you are on. The approximate Cfa/Dfa point at that latitude is 1,500 to 2,000 feet (increasing southward). The highest mountains in the Alleghenies (to the north) actually fall in the Dfb category, although that is more prominent in NE West Virginia and in Maryland. CrazyC83 22:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Dallas isn't in the core reach of the climate range as is listed in the passage. 74.128.200.135 01:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Dallas is on the western edge, but is definitely in the Cfa range. (Around Wichita Falls is where the subtropical grades to semi-arid steppe - Cfa to BSk) CrazyC83 05:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map Problem

The original map was better and more accurate, until Strongerbad changed it by extending the red "truly subtropical" climate to the western Chesapeke shore, claiming that it is truly subtropical because the yearly average low exceeds 50°F.

Maybe for the Inner Harbor, a very small but well known part of Baltimore may have that due to its extreme closeness to water and intense heat island, but not because its a subtropical climate. A better example of the area's climate would be BWI which mind you is SOUTH of the city, [here http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/wxclimatology/monthly/BWI:9] are the averages. Take the yearly average of the lows, and it is 44.25°! Well below the "truly subtropical" zone that the map shows. Not impressed? Let's go farther south and take [Annapolis http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/wxclimatology/monthly/USMD0010], right on the shore of the bay. 45.1°, not "over 50". So I propose returning to the original map, and if you must be technical and picky, then shade one or two pixels of Baltimore red, and leave the rest as the original. Extending the red up to Baltimore is very inaccurate Faz90 02:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I have updated the map to reflect the city of Baltimore (and not the area of annapolis, etc) as truly subtropical. The current map was also innacurate. Nashville's low temperatures are as follows: [2] averaging an annual low of 49.8. Baltimore's are as follows: [3] averaging 51. Tell me again why the entire area around Nashville is solidly in the humid subtropical zone and Baltimore city is not?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Strongbad1982 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Edit

I restored a section removed by recent IP editors (one of whom vandalised an article on my watchlist) but I don't know anything about the topic, so if any of these removals was valid in the opinion of a regular editor, feel free to re-make it. Orderinchaos 22:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why was South America taken off??

A large part of South America has what constitutes a humid subtropical climate. Southern Brazil, Northeastern Argentina and parts of Uruguay and Paraguay have regions that clearly fall into this category. It seems preposterous that the section would be taken out of the article, except of course if improvements were being made, which seems reasonable as the section was needing some improvement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.4.24.9 (talk) 22:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] southeastern Pennsylvania and southern New Jersey

The climate of southeastern Pennsylvania and southern New Jersey is markedly different from those of central, northern, degrees F, just below the 50 degree threshold for subtropical. But Baltimore's annual minimum temperature is 52 degrees, making it just inside the true subtropical climate zone. Baltimore city and the region surrounding the chesapeake Bay are truly subtropical, if barely. the transition zone begins at Baltimore's western suburbs, although Washington DC in in the transition zone. the updated map reflects this. See the climate section for Maryland, and this will corroborate. If anything, Nashville's annual minimum of 49 degrees would put it in the transition.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Strongbad1982 (talk • contribs)

According to "Updated world map of the Köppen-Geiger climate classification", whether a location is continental or subtropical depends on the average temperature of its coldest month, not its annual minimum. It states that if the coldest month temperature is above 32 °F, it's subtropical. According to weather.com and the NOAA, Nashville's mean January temperature is 37 °F, placing it well within the subtropical zone. Flash94 (talk) 23:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bergen County

Most of Bergen County, New Jersey is in the debatable zone (between Cfa and Dfa). http://www.idcide.com/weather/nj/oakland.htm and http://www.idcide.com/weather/nj/ramsey.htm proves that these two towns are just inside this zone. However, idcide doesn't have a weather page for Mahwah, the only town in Bergen County north of Oakland and Ramsey. http://www.idcide.com/weather/nj/ft-lee.htm proves that Fort Lee is just outside the debated zone, in the humid subtropical climate's vicinity. Its funny how the -3C line lies right on or near the Bergen/Passiac/New York State border. Press olive, win oil (talk) 19:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC) http://www.idcide.com/weather/nj/ringwood.htm shows that Ringwood, which borders Mahwah to the northwest (well, really west and a bit north) has a coldest month average between 0C and -3C. Mahwah probably does as well.

[edit] Inconsistency with African map of climate zones

Being interested in the climate of Zambia I checked Wikipedia and stumbeled on this map in Wikipedia. [[4]] It classifies the Zambian climate and most of the subropical African countries as Cwa, here it states that the Humid subtropical climate is limited to the South African east coast. Maybe somebody with expertise can look into it because one page should be corrected I think. I think the African map is correct myself, because subtropical would mean adjacent to tropical regions.(like Tropical>Cwa> Dessertlike>Mediterranean>Temperate) To me it makes no sense describing any climate in Europe as subtropicalViridiflavus (talk) 21:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong definition of Cfa and Cwa

You were using the Koppen f for tropical rainforests (ie. Af not Cf). You ignored the definition of Cwa altogether. You might want to change the citation of the Times Atlas of the World since it's not easily verified and there are many correct definitions of Cfa and Cwa on the web, including Wikipedia Köppen_climate_classification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.39.46 (talk) 04:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

Why is there debate over NYC? I know there is but why? It's cfa by Koppen, so why would someone change the definition? Is Los Angeles on the Mediterranean? No, but it has a Mediterranean climate. Is Cape Cod on the west coast? No, but it has a Marine West Coast climate. Press olive, win oil (talk) 22:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The Koppen definition is only one definition. If someone else defines subtropical as having a normal average temperature never falling below freezing, New York City would fall just short of being subtropical. Also until fairly recently, it used to snow somewhat regularly in New York City (though often in light amounts). As recently as 1996, New York City had something like 60+ inches of snow for the year, not exactly a subtropical trait. New York though has not seen any major snowstorms since 2006, though the February 2006 snowstorm dumped a record-breaking 26.9 inches on New York.[5] Yet generally after any snow event, the snow usually melts very quickly. High temperatures in the 40's and 50's during the winter is becoming a more common occurrence in New York City. Still many residents would argue that they don't see anything "subtropical" about winters in New York City. Arguments can be made for both a humid subtropical classification and a humid continental classification for New York City. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 (talk) 14:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand. I live in the suburbs of New York City and the coldest month average between 0 and -3C there. Snow does usually melt quickly. Oh, by the way, earlier this week there were 100+ highs in New York City. Press olive, win oil (talk) 19:27, 13 June 2008 (UTC)