Talk:Human trafficking in Angeles City/Archive 2

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"==Cyberporn Sex Rings== Recently over the past few years there has been a rise in Cyberporn Sex Rings in Angeles. Philippines, lawmaker Joseph Santiago states that Angeles City alone, has been classified a cybersex and sex-tourism hotspot by the Philippines National Police http://www.asianpacificpost.com/portal2/402881910674ebab010674f5aaf11ef9.do.html Police have already smashed a number of paedophile cyberporn ring in Angeles. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20040404/ai_n12891047 Further police raids on cybersex dens in Angeles City have show that they are run by foreigners and that the customers are expatriates from the West as well as affluent men from Japan and South Korea. http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35895 Police reveal that that children are being sold by their parents in this ‘new market'." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Susanbryce (talk • contribs) 06:00, 07 February 2007 (UTC)

That seems ok. The references seem good, and that's the main thing to result in a credible article.

BTW, it would help readers of this talk page if you follow the Wikipedia convention of signing posts on talk pages by ending with four tildes, e.g. ~~~~. This will automatically be translated into your username and timestamp when you save your edit, allowing other readers to see when and by whom the post was made. Phaedrus86 07:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually I see that you usually do sign your posts, so you just forgot once. Please ignore me! Phaedrus86 07:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou Phaedrus86, I have now added the section Cyberporn Sex Rings to the article. Now, Im thinking of adding a photo, can you tell me where I can read the guidlines on this? And any suggestions on adding a photo to the article please?Susanbryce 07:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Start with Wikipedia:Images and read that and the links at the end to guidelines and policies on copyright tags and image usage policy. The main requirement is that the image must be freely reusable. If you can take one yourself and release all copyright rights on it when you upload it, then that would be best. As to what sort of photo, perhaps one of a typical bar scene. I think you will have to be very careful with images that identify people, especially rich westerners who like to hide their disgusting habits behind all sorts of privacy laws at times like that. Perhaps you could take a photo showing western tourists with scantily clad bar girls in a seedy bar, but then edit it with image editing software and pixelate any faces that might show the identity of the people concerned, like they commonly do on TV. Phaedrus86 10:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

1 Renaming article
2 Gang income
3 suggested new info
4 PREDA a reliable source??
5 Citing TV News Documentary
6 Propose moving this to the Hoax section
7 adding citations from Philippine Newspapers
8 Vandals Blanked the Page
9 reverted to 17 febuary
10 Facts not Opinions
11 Looking at the Credibility Line by Line
12 Change to sentence on Clark
13 Criticism Section
14 Anti-Trafficking in Persons act
15 Simple Clarification Of The Act
16 reaction of foreign governments

[edit] Renaming article

I noticed the title of the article has been changed? First, I notice that the title is spelled wrong, it should be "prostitution". Second, I dont think this new title should be used, im going to be expending this article soon to include a lot on human trafficking in Angeles and how the gangs traffick the slaves in and out of angeles around the philippines and across the world with details on how they do this. Prostitution also gives the wrong impression on what is actually happening in Angeles. Anyway, would like some input and discussion on the heading please. regards, Susan.Susanbryce 06:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I fixed the spelling error in the title. I also fixed the double redirect that resulted.

I tend to agree that the old title was too long. I think the title should be kept as short as possible, on the grounds that the article itself should tell the story, not the title. For example, look at the novel War and Peace: massive novel with huge themes, very short title. I don't think you should try and include all the aspects of the article in the title. Pick the most general subject and location possible, but don't try and include two subjects. For example, "Sex slavery and human trafficking" is two subjects - too long. Instead, pick the most general single subject you can.

Possibile alternative titles I can suggest:

Sex slavery in Angeles City
Child prostitution in Angeles City
Human trafficking in Angeles City
Gang-related prostitution in Angeles City

Phaedrus86 11:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

By the way, when you add details of how the gangs traffic the slaves etc, remember that it has to be verifiable, you can't just put your unsourced allegations there, or other people will eventually remove them. Phaedrus86 11:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Phaedrus86, my policy on this article will always be to place any content suggestions here on the discussion area first to get approval and feedback before I would add to the article. I feel this is the best idea since im still in the learning process and since this is such a difficult article to write. On the title, im going to vote for :*Human trafficking in Angeles City. regards, Susan.Susanbryce 11:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

As you can see I have renamed it. Phaedrus86

[edit] Gang income

In the history part of the article, i would like to add the following which shows the sort of money the gangs were making during the 80s from prostitution around the bases: Sister Sol Perpinan of Third World Movement Against Exploitation of Women, estimated that by the mid-80s the sex industries around the bases in the Philippines had generated more than $500 million.... http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,SOF_0904_Slavery1,00.html

ill also try to find some current figures of money earned by the gangs in Angeles.Susanbryce 12:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Susan, when you start a new topic, could you please add a header using the = signs as above. It makes it a lot easier to tell when one conversation ends and another starts, and it makes it so much easier to pick up new conversations. People can process the talk page much quicker if they can skim the sections they have already read. Phaedrus86 12:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the military.com article, that seems ok for the External links section as something that will provide background, but at first glance it doesn't seem enough as a primary source, although I have only glanced at it so far. I'll provide a better opinion tomorrow after I've read it a bit and thought about it. Phaedrus86 12:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] suggested new info

I would like to add this new info to the article please...

"UNICEF estimates that there are some 200 brothels in the notorious Angeles City that offer children for sex.http://www.bbc.co.uk/politics97/news/08/0830/phil.shtml" thankyou, susan.Susanbryce 09:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I added it into a new Child prostitution section - see how that goes. Phaedrus86 11:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

that is not what the article says at all!! it says "many of the 200 brothels offer children for sex" but it does not state how many. it certainly does not say that 200 (which would be all of them, according to this article) offer children for sex. let's be accurate please. many can mean 180 or it can mean 5. personally, i have not seen a single brothel offer any children for sex but what do i know. i only live here. I know that bars (of which there are about 200) are not brothels. brothels would require prostitutes to be working in them, right? prostitution is illegal in the philippines, right? so how are these bars allowed to legally operate if they are indeed brothels? the girls that work in the bars must be over 18 years old and must prove they are over 18 in order to get a license to work there. there is nobody offering children for sex in Angeles any more than they are doing it in any other city or country. if UNICEF knows differently all they need to do is walk to the local Philippine National Police office and have everyone arrested. the officers there think pedophiles are just as disgusting as you and i find them.

of course, it is very hard to prove a negative. why would anyone write an article on child prostitution in Denver if there is none? the same can be said for Angeles. nobody is going to write an article that it does not exist.

of course we have already determined elsewhere on this page that many organizations inflate the numbers to serve their own purpose. numbers are extremely inaccurate. they estimate that there are 150,000 prostitutes working in angeles yet the population of angeles is less than 300,000. its statistically impossible for there numbers to be accurate even if every single female under the age of 60 were a prostitute. RodentofDeath 13:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PREDA a reliable source??

i'm not sure that the references to PREDA and their website are a reliable source of information according to the wikipedia guidelines. it seems that they are not independently objective or have a known reliable research method. they are an organization that depends on donations for their existence and actively solicit donations on their website. while i applaud their efforts to combat child abuse and everyone despises pedophiles it seems it would be in their best interest to have a tendency to over-state the problem or possibly coerce people into saying they were abused. (http://www.cathnews.com/news/004/41.html)

i give you the following links as an examples

http://www.preda.org/archives/hl/wvb.html set up their own police force? sorry, not true.

http://www.preda.org/archives/2004/r04063001.html prostitution is the only business in town? i guess they missed my business and a few thousand others.

http://www.preda.org/archives/2004/r04070601.html infested by sex tourists? i'll have to look closer tomorrow when i make my 8th trip to puerto galera this year to go scuba diving. i seem to distinctly remember a very large presence of scuba divers be very concerned with....of all things..... SCUBA DIVING!!! some of the best scuba diving in the world is in puerto galera. some of the worst nightlife in the world is in puerto galera. if i was looking for sex it would be one of the last places in the philippines i would go.RodentofDeath 00:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The credentials of PREDA and its founder speak for themselves:

Nobel Peace Prize Nomination: On October 3, 2002 Canadian MP Hon. David Kilgour of Edmonton Southeast nominated Fr. Shay for the Award.

Nobel Nomination 2003: Christa Nickels, German MP nominated Fr. Shay for the 2003 Nobel Peace Prize.

In 2003, Fr. Shay was awarded the first Prix Caritas by Caritas Switzerland. Awarded to Preda ´in honour of its initiatives and extraordinary engagement for children in need. Fr. Cullen is a member of the Missionary Society of St. Columban. He has been appluaded by the POPE!

Preda addressed the U.S. House Comittee On International Relations.

The Preda Foundation is licensed and accredited by the Philippine Goverment.

This is just to name a few things: Now if Preda and its volunteers are good enough for the United States Government, the Pope, Unicef, World Governments and to be accepted as a dual nominee for the Nobel Peace Peace Prize, its most certainly good enough for Wikipedia.

paying money to nominate someone for a nobel prize does not make them more reliable as a unbiased source of information. he did not win the nobel prize. i suggest you look at the nominating procedures and how little is actually required to be nominated before you put those that have been nominated on a high pedestal. Fr. Shay is now in the compnay of many fine other Nobel Prize Nominees including Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro.

Fr Shay makes his living and funds his organization by trying to inject hysteria into the international community. by the very nature of his organization it literally pays him to make statements that are NOT accurate but overblown. i still cite the above examples of his extremely biased opinions as not being independently objective as stated by Wikipedia's criteria. RodentofDeath 09:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

once again, the unreliable and extremely biased PREDA organization is the only source cited as evidence there are any "gangs" organizing illegal activity in Angeles. the only other supporting information provided that there are gangs references the arrest of a single individiual wanted in Canada and elsewhere for crimes. this hardly supports any gang related activity going on in angeles. RodentofDeath 22:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citing TV News Documentary

Im wondering if their is any way to cite TV news documentries? There have been numerous documentaries show around the world on the shocking horrors and abuses of the Angeles child sex slave trade, and Im aware of several more coming this year. I was watching one that was shown in the UK where this undercover reporter wearing a hidden camera and microphone went inside this child sex slave business in fields ave in Angeles, he had to go through several heavily locked doors with heavily armed men gaurding the den, once inside there were young children offered to him for sale. Now this is really horrifying! But the question is, how can we cite that here?

[edit] Propose moving this to the Hoax section

the more i search into this topic the more i find that what little RELIABLE information there is about prostitution in Angeles City it does not match up with what a very few people are describing as a slave trade.

reliable court records quoted in one of susanbryce's own references.... which seem to be one of the few independent sources to confirm or deny the existance of such a problem.... read as follows:

"Records at the social welfare department show that 158 cases of child abuse -- including sexual exploitation of minors -- were filed in court from 1994 to 1996. Only five led to convictions."

these records are not out of line with any other city with a population in the hundred's of thousands. it seems that someone is trying their hardest to portray a city in a negative light instead of being objective as wikipedia requires. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RodentofDeath (talk • contribs) 13:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] adding citations from Philippine Newspapers

Im wondering if we can add vitations from Philippine newspapers, even if those articles are in Tagalog?Susanbryce 15:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandals Blanked the Page

Ok, vandal 58.69.55.22 hit the page and blanked it completly, I restored it, but it may not be the latest version, sorry.

This article is under constant vandal attacks that are blanking the page, Can someone pls apply semi-protection to the article thanks.

I semiprotected it for 2 days, as the vandal appears to have a fairly diverse range of IPs from which to edit. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

i think what you have is a bunch of people that are upset at an article this un-true being posted on wikipedia, not a handful of vandals. probably every resident of angeles that comes across this article knows its not true and blanks the page. RodentofDeath 06:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

removed the OPINION that sex slavery is a serious problem and backed it up with arrest records from the original poster's own article. also removed references to child prostitution as a result of the same statistic since the total of 5 arrests is not notable.

removed references to foreign government reaction as the first quote was incorrect and misleading and all references are on a country wide basis and not particular to angeles (which is the topic according to the title of the page). removed corruption section as it was not specific to angeles (again!) and was based on an extremely sensationalistic website that openly solicits donations.

removed undocumented fact about protests in manila. removed incorrect information about military personal being barred from accessing angeles city bars. removed unsupported reference to bar staff being raped by managers.

removed the falsely attributed nicknames "sin city" (which is las vegas) and "paedophiles paradise" (which is Goa, India). this also shows the inaccuracy and biased information prevelant throughout preda articles.

theres many many more errors.. such as the hiv infection rates.. and almost every link is either misrepresented as being angeles or just outright lies..

more editing corrections later!!! RodentofDeath 07:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] reverted to 17 febuary

After discussion with senior editor on wiki, it has been agreed to revert the article to 17 febuary.Susanbryce 13:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

this is the place to discuss the article. not in private. the senior editor should know that. reverted back to most recent article. if you or the senior editor have a problem with what i have documented please discuss it here, not amongst yourselves. RodentofDeath 07:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

People can discuss the article anywhere they please - it does not have to be here. The article was reverted to 17th February because that was a far less controversial version than later ones. Please don't revert it to versions that are of lower quality and less well documented just so you can disagree with it. Phaedrus86 07:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

well, if its not here then how are we supposed to know why it was reverted?RodentofDeath 07:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

so now i have to go through and do the edits above again? such as stating it's a serious problem (which is an opinion and a false one at that)??? do you mean i can say anything i want as long as i put a link to something even if that is not what the article is talking about?? there are many many errors in this version you just reverted to. RodentofDeath 08:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

As with everything in Wikipedia, try to find reliable sources for any assertions in an article. I suggest you read WP:NOR and WP:ATT. The article as it stands is currently supported by a number of credible references. If you believe there are errors, try and research the topic and find references which give a better view of the truth from a neutral point of view. Please keep in mind that, as is described in WP:NOR, this is not a place for opinions. Phaedrus86 08:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

thanks phaedrus86. that is exactly my point. all i wish is for the truth to be shown and not the opinions of one person. what do i do about opinions that are already in the article? "sex slavery" doesnt exist in angeles. not only is it not a "serious problem" but it isnt a problem at all. i'm here now. this entire article is complete bull. there are no slaves. nobody is being bought and sold. there are prostitutes here just like there are prostitutes in any city of this size. nobody is forcing them or kidnapping them to come here. there also are no martians in angeles but how do you prove something doesnt exist??? so personal research counts for nothing.

phaedrus please do yourself a favor and do a google search for "the killing fields of angeles". this is a petition started by susan bryce. it is also complete bull. there are no killing fields. there is nobody chained to beds. this petition is what she is trying to turn this wikipedia article into.

susan, instead of trying to use wikipedia to raise funds for your charities that pay you to travel around the world spreading your outrageously inaccurate numbers why dont you post some facts. here are some facts i would like to see:

the most important thing. lets hear where the slaves are. dont be shy. you describe a multi-story restaurant on fields with girls chained to the beds. whats the address? what's the name of the restaurant? i will go there myself if you like and then no more problem. i'll even purchase a bolt cutter before i go. the thousands and thousands of people you claim are pedophiles can find these slaves easily enough, right? surely it cant be too big of a secret. lets just get it out in the open where the slaves are. see, the problem with this entire article is that there really needs to be some slaves. there arent any. you need to prove that there are.

you keep referencing organized crime and criminal gangs. what proof do you have? let's hear who is involved. not suspicions but actual facts. who are they? what are their names and what are they doing? the whole "slave" thing doesnt work too well without the whole "gang" thing but there really are no slaves and there really are no gangs. the only thing i could even remotely call a gang here is a bunch of 50 year old military guys that now drive around on harleys with little black leather vests on that say Mad Dog or something like that. hardly worth a second like if your looking for a criminal gang.

lets hear who the corrupt officials are that the non-existent gangs are paying off to keep their non-existent slaves. i guess the whole "slave" thing doesnt work without the whole "gang" thing then the "gang" thing needs to do the "pay off the police" thing. still no proof. let's see proof.

lets hear the addresses of the 200 brothels. yep, thats right. all 200. so far you just have vague references to obscure groups claiming outrageous things. you yourself have posted outrageous numbers previously claiming the 56% of the entire population of angeles are prostitutes. if there is 200 brothels documented then lets hear where they are. i can go to each one and bring the media with me if you like. since prostitution is illegal i am sure they will all be shut down immediately. isnt that the goal of all this anyway?

lets hear the conviction rate of all these crimes being committed. not articles claiming girls were "rescued" (an outrageous word for someone that is willingly working) from a cyber sex studio and people arrested. let's hear actual convictions of people found guilty. don't use the "the gangs paid off the politicians to keep the slaves" excuse even though you dont have any proof.

by the way, why does my reference to father cullen's arrest for raping a 7 year old keep getting deleted? its a well documented fact. he wasnt convicted of course. perhaps he had his gang pay off the corrupt politicians? you think that might be the case? RodentofDeath 09:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"sex slavery" doesnt exist in angeles. not only is it not a "serious problem" but it isnt a problem at all. - the sources don't support your argument here, and they are good sources. As I said, if you disagree with it, find some credible sources that support your argument.

"the killing fields of angeles" - the current version of this article does not include this phrase.

father cullen's arrest for raping a 7 year old keep getting deleted? its a well documented fact - where is it documented? If it is, provide a citation for it, that's what Wikipedia is all about - assembling verifiable facts.

There are plenty of sources that attest to the fact that prostitution and child prostitution is a problem in Angeles City and many other parts of the Philippines. If you claim it is not a problem, where are your sources? Please understand this is an encyclopedia, not a chat forum. Phaedrus86 09:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

the citation for father cullen's arrest was inserted right along with the claim every time i put it in the article. then they were deleted.

Nothing in Wikipedia is ever deleted. I checked all your edits for the past week and there is no mention of Cullen. You're making this up as you go along. Phaedrus86 11:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

next let me point out that slavery and prostitution are not the same thing. human trafficking and prostitution are not the same thing. if this article is specific to angeles then it should site references to angeles, not the entire philippines. you cant say "there are 1 million prostitutes in the world. therefore sex slavery is a significant problem in america." if you are talking about slavery in angeles then the articles need to cite slaves in angeles. citing prostitutes in all of the philippines isnt going to be valid for two reasons. prostitutes arent the same thing as slaves and citing numbers for all the philippines doesnt necessarily translate into numbers for angeles. for instance, prostitution is generally more of a problem amongst poor communities yet angeles is a first class city.

next let me point out that slavery and prostitution are not the same thing - but they can often co-exist. Where extreme poverty is combined with the opportunity to earn income from prostitution, it is difficult for women who take up the industry to leave it. The combination of shame, coercion from employers and the alternative of extreme poverty can amount to slavery. When the choices are between prostitution and picking over garbage dumps or begging then it can easily amount to slavery. This happens all over the world, not just the Philippines, but it is a documented problem in the Philippines because of the poverty. Poeple from the first world do use their wealth to exploit this, and this can amount to slavery. I am not going to debate this issue further, I think the references speak for themselves. Phaedrus86 11:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

another thing is that most of these citations come from a very small number of people that are "less than credible" to put it mildly.

Right - like the Australian Law Reform Commission, UNICEF, the BBC - all well known "less than credible" sources. Phaedrus86 11:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

i feel like i have been backed into a corner where it seems i am defending prostitution when in fact i have quite the opposite feelings. i just wish it would be portrayed accurately and not sensationalistic. (is that a word?!)

i certainly would like to see some solid numbers with some real meaning behind them, such as crime statistics. quoting an article as saying there are 2000 pedophiles a month going to angeles seems rather silly. i would like to know how they came up with the numbers exactly. did they ask people getting off the planes if they were pedophiles and what city they were going to??

it seems i am defending prostitution - you said it. In fact it does not look like you are defending it, it looks like you want opinion to take precedence over credible sources. Have a look - The Australian Law Reform Commission is a credible source. UNICEF is a credible source. The BBC is a credible source. Please, if you want to argue that all these organisations are mistaken, then prepare your arguments dispassionately and supply credible sources. Surely if the article is as misleading as you claim you can come up with studies from credible sources that question the conclusions presented here. If you can't then you will need to find some other forum to promote your views. Phaedrus86 11:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

HAHAHAhahaa!!! "If you can't then you will need to find some other forum to promote your views." phaedrus, that is about the funniest thing i've heard on this subject yet!! i thought susan trying to say that 56% of everyone that lives in angeles is a prostitute was going to be impossible to top but you just did it. i am proud of you. you have a political activist that has been slandering a city for years with lies as evidenced by her online petition yet you say that i am the that is trying to promote my views!!! HAHAHAHAhahaha thats a great one!!!

forget that the consensus from people that actually live in angeles. this problem doesnt exist. forget that people dont write articles about things that dont exist. New York Times Headline "President Bush does not Ride a Pig". one of the few tidbits susan can come up with is one person (possibly even herself!!) telling an australian committee about angeles. up to 80% of bars and hotels are owned or managed by australians. forget the law that says an australian cant own more than 40% of a business, right? so all the bars would need to be owned by filipinos by at least 60%. up to 80 percent, huh? wouldnt 1% fall into that category? sounds like great research the australian government has put into angeles. then she has a sensational news report from someone on the other side of the world that has probably never been here. ok great. that makes it a significant problem then. you think the bbc sent someone to angeles to investigate?? then we have the wonderful salvation army article that quotes her outrageous online petition word for word. perhaps the salvation army citation is in the Angeles City article. i might be getting confused again since she tries to insert lies about Angeles in so many different places. by the way, i apologize for getting the deletion of father cullen's arrest in the angeles city article confused with this article. again, its hard to keep track of all the places susan is lying about my city.

... but i forgot. i am the one that is trying to promote my views.... HAHAHAHAHAhahahaha RodentofDeath 16:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to explain Wikipedia to you, but it appears all you are interested in is sanitising any truth there might be there. Not much point discussing it further, but feel free to have the last word. Phaedrus86 20:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

ah yes. your explanation of Wikipedia. once the truth is put into the article it is sanitized out by reverting back to february. it seems in a secret conversation it is decided to do so without discussion on the discussion board. ah yes, your version of Wikipedia. where opinions are not wanted but facts are yet when the opinions are deleted out of the first paragraph and statements backed by court records put in the article gets reverted because its "less contraversial". RodentofDeath 22:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Facts not Opinions

let's have a look at the official statement from the NBI (philippine version of the FBI). it is located here: http://www.doj.gov.ph/news_06-07-05.html

"Based on our records, the Department has received 65 complaints for alleged trafficking in persons violations for the period June 2003-January 2005. Of these cases, 24 have been filed in court while 31 are pending preliminary investigation. These complaints involve 98 alleged traffickers/recruiters. Majority of these cases (35) were filed in Manila, Quezon City, Pasay City and the National Prosecution Offices, while others were filed in Zamboanga (8), Cebu (4), Davao City (4), Olongapo City (3), Lapu-Lapu City (3), La Union (2), Bacolod City (2), Kabankalan City (2), and Tagbilaran City (2)."

Not a single case in Angeles!!

"Trafficking in persons is penalized under the Republic Act 9208, which is known as the Anti-Trafficking in Persons Act of 2003. The Philippines was dropped out of the US Human Trafficking Watch List in June 2006 due to landmark convictions against traffickers secured by prosecutors in the cities of Zamboanga and Quezon."from http://www.doj.gov.ph/news_09-19-06.html

wow, dropped out of the watch list and again not a single mention of Angeles. RodentofDeath 23:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Looking at the Credibility Line by Line

ok, let's discuss line one. "Human trafficking in Angeles City, Philippines is a significant problem, with several thousand young girls working as prostitutes, some as young as six years old." first of all, saying it is a significant problem is an opinion. the citation quotes a salvation army article. this article is unfortuntely not credible. it says "One of the most desperate areas is Angeles City, where it is estimated 150,000 girls work as prostitutes, some as young as six years old." the entire population of Angeles is 280,000. see http://www.pampangacapitol.com/pampanga.html

so, according to the salvation army article an impossible 53% of the population of Angeles are prostitutes. obviously this number is impossible. coincidently, one of the earliest references i can find to the 150,000 number is a petition written by our very own susan bryce copyrighted in 2001. even more coincidently the petition also states "of (the 150,000) about 30,000 are girls as young as six years of age." once again, impossible numbers saying that over 10% of the total population of angeles are girl prostitutes as young as 6 years old. taken these coincidences into account and given that they both came up with the same 6 year old reference it becomes clear that the salvation army did not properly research their numbers. i love the salvation army. i personally contribute to their organization on a regular basis. however, this particular article isnt credible.

to summarize: it is clear that the citation given to justify the first sentence is not credible. RodentofDeath 05:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

this little credibility box thing is GREAT!!! it says "This section needs sources or references that appear in credible, third-party publications. Alone, primary sources and sources affiliated with the subject of the article are not sufficient for an accurate encyclopedia article. Please include more appropriate citations from reliable sources."

the only question i have is why isnt this added to all the other sections that dont have reliable and credible citations from third parties?? certainly PREDA is affiliated with the subject of these articles and is not a credible source (as i have been saying all along).RodentofDeath 10:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

ok, back to looking at the credibility again. the first citation now ^[1] is for numbers in 1990 when america operated one of the largest air bases outside the US mainland in angeles. the base is gone. pinatubo has changed the business environment also. these numbers are no longer valid.

citation number 2 ^[2] has the same problem. it says the major problems of child prostituion are in the major cities, not angeles. there is no information on whether this has changed or not. however, the book lists a publishing date of 1993 but it is clearly talking about US bases in the present tense. this information is no longer current.

citation number 3 ^[3] lists numbers in the philippines as a whole. there are no specific numbers for angeles. this would be a good citation for prostitution in the philippines but what it is doing here? while i dont necessarily think their numbers are in error it certainly doesnt look very good for them to be asking for money in multiple places on the very same page they are talking about this problem. not exactly an independent point of view if they ask for funds.

citation number 4 ^[4] "Of 500 prostitutes in Angeles City, 75% are children." wow, those numbers seem to vary widely, huh?!! somewhere between 500 and 150,000. yea, all these citations are credible, dont you think? well, i can tell you honestly that 500 prostitutes in angeles is way too low. ....but thats from personal experience again so that doesnt count. i could go to hygiene and check the number of girls that show up for their weekly exam and give you an exact number but that would be personal research. that doesnt count either. so the exact amount will remain a mystery since the one person testifying before the australian law reform committee wasnt smart enough to check hygiene (and thats apparently a reliable source) and preda apparently doesnt wish to check there as it might hurt their fund raising efforts if they cant exaggerate the numbers. anyway, the 500 number is way too low just as the 75% number is way too high. that would leave only 125 prostitutes over the age of 18. walk into just about any bar on lower fields ave and you will find they employee about that amount in just that one bar. completely ridiculous numbers in this citation.

citation number 5 ^[5] .... let's hear it for philippine law enforcement!! they got a really bad guy and are going to lock him up and throw away the key. i wish they had the death penalty. i would volunteer to throw the switch. so how does this citation help your argument? one person out of 280,000 is arrested for child prostitution. this does not make the entire city full of child prostitutes. this means that angeles law enforcement will find and arrest people breaking the law. does anyone have proof otherwise?

citation number 6 ^[6] is given as a citation for "The sex slavery trade was highly prominent during the time of the U.S. military base called Clark Air Base" but what it actually says is "Angeles City, near the former U.S. Air Force base at Clark Field, accommodated U.S. service personnel's sexual demands." and says nothing about slavery in angeles.

citation number 7^[7] is likewise given for "The sex slavery trade was highly prominent during the time of the U.S. military base called Clark Air Base" but once again does not mention slavery at all but it refers to prostitutes and entertainers. an entertainer is not necessarily a "sex slave".

citation number 8^[8] is supposed to be credible just because it comes from the australian government, i guess. looking at the article however i see various problems and exaggerations that place doubt on the credibility of those giving information to the australian government. first of all, i would really like to know about these shuttle buses as the article states "shuttle buses regularly take tourists directly from Manila airport to Angeles". i am currently paying close to $45 usd to have a car take me to the airport as there are no shuttle buses. so if anyone finds the shuttle buses please let me know. as far as i am told by people at manila airport there is not even a shuttle bus to take you from the international terminal to the domestic terminal. i really would like to save money so please help with any info. another error is "Overnight, signs appeared on bar entrances denying entry to unescorted women". sorry, these signs have been here at least since the 1980s when i made my first trip. again, the article says something that is not credible but what do i know. i only saw it for myself. personal experience counts for nothing so i guess the ladies testifying in error to the australian authorities must be right. another outrageous and unsupported statement "Some women present estimated that over half of the male Filipino population would regularly use the services of prostituted women and children". half of the entire male population? considering its a country that is very religious and somewhere around 95% are catholic i would guess a lot of people are going to hell. it would also mean that there are a lot of women prostitutes to service about 20 million guys regularly. what qualifications do these women have to make this outrageous estimate? apparently none.

RodentofDeath 08:26, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

RodentofDeath, the citations are, very obviously, to the entire books not just the linked page. For example, for the first reference, if you keep reading over the page it clearly explains how the situation changed after the base was closed. The second reference does mention Angeles City and I don't see why a publish date of 1993 is a problem - this is an encyclopedia article, not a news story. The third reference supports an introductory sentence in the lead section, providing context. The fourth citation, yes I agree, this appears to be a misquote and the reference should probably be removed. I'm delighted you agree with the inclusion of the fifth citation. I agree with your comments regarding the sixth and seventh citations, although slavery is mentioned, there isn't a specific mention of slavery in Angeles, accordingly the sentence should be rephrased. The eighth reference is a primary source, however, most of the content it supports could be referenced from other sources. Overall, I would comment the article appears to be mostly about prostitution in Angeles City and in covering this subject mentions the problem of human tafficking. Addhoc 10:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

so we must read the entire book to find out that "human trafficking in angeles is a significant problem?". thats a good citation? are you serious? also, regarding this neutral point of view that wikipedia is supposed to have (but clearly not in this article) isnt the "significant problem" statement an OPINION much like saying Hitler was a bad man? the 1993 publishing date is not a problem and i didnt say that it was. the problem is that the situation in angeles has changed significantly since the US bases closed in 1992. i am glad we seem to be agreeing on at least a few things. i will rephrase the sentence referring to citations 6 and 7. i would also like to have the title changed from Human Trafficking to Prostitution as i agree that this seems to be what the article is discussing. RodentofDeath 09:39, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

susanbryce has misrepresented a citation as "The Australian Law Reform Commission undertook an investigation into sex slavery and Human Trafficking in Angeles" when that is in fact not true at all. a lawyer that works for the commission attended conference in Manila on the sexual exploitation of women. she later reported on it to the commission.

[edit] Change to sentence on Clark

I made a slight change to the sentence on clark, changing from "started" to "highly prominent". I added three citations to verify this. here is the new sentence.... The sex slavery trade was highly prominent during the time of the U.S. military base called Clark Air Base.Susanbryce 13:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

much more accurate. thanks. RodentofDeath 04:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism Section

i've had little time to work on the criticism section as power outages here have made internet connections spotty all day. i have a few references bookmarked but havent inserted them yet and i am going barhopping with my fiance' and a friend. if i spot any pedophiles, underaged prostitutes or the like i will be sure to notify the authorities. it seems they have not been notified in quite some time though. anyway, here is what i have so far for your discussion. more citations later:

The residents point out that certain activist groups and charities write press releases that are blatantly in error. These activists and groups often claim that 150,000 (of the 280,000 residents^[9]) are enslaved in Angeles and forced to work as prostitutes servicing up to dozens of customers a day.^[10]^[11] They also make unfounded claims of organized crime involvement, gang activity, girls being chained to beds and pedophilia gain sympathy to their cause and solicit donations to their groups.

Human trafficking in Angeles City is not a significant problem according to official Department of Justice records. From June 2003 until January 2005 65 complaints were received nationwide. Not a single complaint was filed in Angeles.^[12]

Lack of complaint does not indicate lack of a problem - that is basic logic. Check out syllogism for starters. Phaedrus86 23:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

ok. let me see if i get your point.

*there is a human trafficking problem in the philippines.

*angeles is in the philippines.

*angeles has a human trafficking problem.

is that the point you were trying to make? or were you trying to say that a lack of a problem would produce many complaints? now you have me confused. RodentofDeath 07:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

RodentofDeath, I'm not going to take your proposal seriously if you include a 'reference' to Susan's user page. Addhoc 12:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Rodent, this page is for discussion of the article, don't link to user pages. Phaedrus86 23:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

yea, you're right. she's not a reliable source. i'll take that one out. interestingly enough if you search for "angeles" and "mafia" in google her profile is the second link. wikipedia may want to do something about profiles being searched as it may lower the ranking of an article by inserting a profile in to the search results above it instead.RodentofDeath 15:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

revision 1

Residents point out that certain activist groups and charities write press releases that are blatantly in error. These activists and groups often claim that 150,000 (of the 280,000 total residents)^[1] are enslaved in Angeles and forced to work as prostitutes servicing up to dozens of customers a day.^[2]^[3] They also make unfounded claims of Mafia involvement^[4], gang activity and girls being chained to walls^[5] to gain sympathy to their cause and solicit donations.^[6] Those that criticize their tactics are labeled "members of a pedophile support group".^[7]

As with any city with a population of over one quarter million people Angeles does have crime including sex crimes. Although sex crime laws are actively enforced activists attempt to use the occasional arrest to try to paint a picture of a larger slavery problem instead of looking at it as a successful investigation of a rare sex crime.

RodentofDeath 16:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Trafficking in Persons act

This page is for discussion. If you want to refer to legislation, don't paste the whole act here, a link to a reliable copy is much better: REPUBLIC ACT NO. 9208

[edit] Simple Clarification Of The Act

What this Act clearly defines, that under Philippine Law, "Prostitution is Defined as Human Trafficking in the Philippines".

I refer people to the following sections of the act which defines that any of the below mentioned are therefore classified as Human Trafficking as a result of the act:

SEC. 3. Definition of Terms - As used in this Act

(a) Trafficking in Persons - refers to the recruitment, transportation, transfer or harboring, or receipt of persons with or without the victim's consent or knowledge, within or across national borders by means of threat or use o force, or other forms of coercion, abduction, fraud, deception, abuse of power or of position, taking advantage of the vulnerability of the person, or, the giving or receiving of payments or benefits to achieve the consent of a person having control over another person for the purpose of exploitation which includes at a minimum, the exploitation or the prostitution of others or other forms of sexual exploitation, forced labor or services, slavery, servitude or the removal or sale of organs.

and,

(c) Prostitution - refers to any act, transaction, scheme or design involving the use of a person by another, for sexual intercourse or lascivious conduct in exchange for money, profit or any other consideration

(e) Sex Tourism - refers to a program organized by travel and tourism-related establishments and individuals which consists of tourism packages or activities utilizing and offering escort and sexual services as enticement for tourists. This includes sexual services and practices offered during rest and recreation periods for members of the military.

(f) Sexual Exploitation - refers to participation by a person in prostitution or the production of pornographic materials as a result of being subjected to a threat, deception, coercion, abduction, force, abuse of authority, debt bondage, fraud or through abuse of a victim's vulnerability.

(g) Debt Bondage - refers to the pledging by the debtor of his/her personal services or labor or those of a person under his/her control as security or payment for a debt, when the length and nature of services is not clearly defined or when the value of the services as reasonably assessed is not applied toward the liquidation of the debt.

(h) Pornography - refers to any representation, through publication, exhibition, cinematography, indecent shows, information technology, or by whatever means, of a person engaged in real or simulated explicit sexual activities or any representation of the sexual parts of a person for primarily sexual purposes.

Just to clarify, im not involving myself in the debate here, but I was asked to clarify what terms , "Human Trafficking", in the Philippines due to my legal background in the Philippines.

I will not involve myself any further in this discussion.Poppy2828 19:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Laws don't mean much without enforcement. The US Department of State "Trafficking in Persons Report" says that the Philippines has a weak rule-of-law environment, endemic poverty and a high unemployment rate. These things often combine to mean that the words in the laws are just that, words. Phaedrus86 23:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

i find it very interesting that almost all the people and the groups that are criticizing the philippines are not filipinos. in other words, the philippines is being forced to conform to what the outside world thinks the philippines should be like instead of following what the filipino people think it should be like. you hear very little criticism on this subject by people born and living in the philippines. its almost exclusively outside influences. RodentofDeath 06:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

So? Phaedrus86 07:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] reaction of foreign governments

while the reaction section in regaurds to the US is more accurate now it once again has the same problem as many of the other statements on this page. it is not specific to angeles and does not even mention angeles once. the US article is not discussing Angeles.

yes, i agree there is human trafficking in the world. america is in the world. therefore america has a human trafficking problem?? sorry, if you are going to title a page about human trafficking in Angeles then you need to discuss the human trafficking in Angeles, not the entire philippines. otherwise this topic is better merged with "prostitution in the philippines" or something similar. RodentofDeath 08:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The reference in question does not mention Angeles but helps show the nature and scale of the problem. Other references do tie the problem specifically to Angeles. This does not mean the problem does not occur elsewhere. There is an argument for changing the title of the article to apply to the Philippines generally, and I would not oppose this, but keep in mind that the name of Angeles City will still occur in the article, because like it or not, the evidence shows that Angeles City is a centre for prostitution and child prostitution. Phaedrus86 23:48, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

i'm not opposed to changing the title either as it would make a much more accurate article. it would probably need to be merged with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Philippines if the title were changed though. other than numbers outrageously in error there really are no solid numbers specific to angeles besides the law enforcement and department of justice numbers. someone mentioned merging this when the article first appeared. perhaps go back through the talk section and see why it was not. RodentofDeath 07:27, 29 April 2007 (UTC)