Talk:Huichol

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Does anybody have info on the heiroglyfics?Cameron Nedland 18:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup begun

I have begun cleaning up the mess that was this article. Unreferenced and reading like an essay something had to be done. I have started trying to verify the information that was here, cut what was clearly out of style for en encyclopedia and find reliable sources for the topic. I haven't done a lot of referencing yet but I will continue working for awhile on this.Maunus 18:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Many mesoamerican peoples use bolsas, which the Cora call "Tlegas", the Huichol, "Cuchuris." and are generally known as "Morales" or Bolsas (Bags). They are not unique to the Huichol. Just go to Jesus Maria in Nayarit and look around. User: Finerty 3 January 2007

Having lived with the Huichol as members of the family, and being an essayist and being the first to write on this subject for the Wikipedia, and with 32 years of experience with Huichol culture and personalities, forgive me if I fail to footnote the experience embodied in my essay. It is as reliable as I can make it (see above note on cuchuries)Someone got hold of it soon after I wrote it and messed it up, for sure, but on the whole it is reliable. There are Four Huichol Communities, the revisor forgot Santa Catarina, which With Tuxpan De Bolanos, San Andres and San Senbastian form the Zona Huichol of the Sierra Madre Occidental. User: Finerty 3 January 2007

Mr. Finerty I appreciate the work that you have done on Huichol culture, but it doesn't conform to wikipedia policies. All content here must be verifiable from reliable sources - pesonal experience is neither verifiable or a reliable source and claims based only on personal experience is original reseach which isn't allowed on wikipedia. Also encyclopedic articles shouldn't read like essays. You are very welcome to incorporate your experience into the article if you can cite reliable sources as references. I will add Santa Catarina right away since this information is well sourced.Maunus 08:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Primnary sources trump secondary sources every time. As for cuchuries, ask Dianne Dittemore at Arizona State Museum if the museum doesn't possess in my collection and in the Caudry Collection Bolsas from Cora and Tepejuana sources. That is why I suggest that the author of the "article" go to Jesus Maria and look around. Jesus Maria is a Cora town in Nayarit and the Coras carry "purses" too, as do most mesoamerican Indians. Indians do not put pockets in their trousers. The Indian women weave the "cuchuries" for their husbands and pride themselves on the artistry of them. I have seen "cuchuries" from as far south as Peru. I'm sorry I wasn't born in an Ivory Tower, where everything can be sourced. My sources for the essay were observation, as a microscopist, of Huichol culture and customs. To be sure, I aided my mother, who was town Doctor in San Miguel Huaistita (a Huichol Town) for six years and have taught in the schools there off and on for 25 years. If you want a reference to my Mother, look in Julio Ramirez de la Cruze's books, where "Doña Cata" is given a chapter to herself. I advise you to Learn Wixa (The Huichol Language) first, for so it is referred to in San Miguel. Julio is author of the only reliable guide to Huichol grammar and is in the process of writing a dictionary. He is one of the Huichol boys I lived with in Mother's house in Zapopan. He is a Linguist at the University of Guadalajara. I do not claim to be conversant in Wira. I only know a few words, Like Tepu (Flea) and Atte (Louse) and a few others that I learned to teach with. I teach microscope and telescope familiarization in San Miugel, when I am there. My photographs of San Miguel and Jesus Maria, where Mom trained, are in the Arizona State Museum with hers, together with my wands as a "curendero," sold to me after I taught the Coras how to save lives by staunching the blood in leg wounds due to cleaning the fields with a brush hook. Huicholes are great liars. Observation is the only way to discern the truth among them.

I am not putting into doubt the veracity of your claims about cuchuries nor belittling your personal knowledge. I am just stating that which is fact: Primary sources are not allowed on wikipedia, unless they are published and can be referenced. I don't have access to any of Ramirez de la Cruz' books at my present location, but feel free to incorporate any information from them that you find useful, and give it proper referencing. (I suppose you mean this book: José Luis Iturrioz Leza y Julio Ramírez de la Cruz, et. al. Función. Gramática Didáctica del Huichol: Vol. I.Estructura Fonológica y Sistema de EscrituraDepartamento de Estudios en Lenguas Indígenas-Universidad de Guadalajara – Secretaria de Educación Pública, Vol. 1, 2001)Maunus 08:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you have access to "Decorative art of the Huichol Indians" by Carl Von Lumholtz, "Unknown Mexico" by the same author, or any of Ramon Mata Tores books (In Spanish) on the subject. I note that they are not referrenced. Mike Finerty. PS. Mom translated the Artes De Mexico edition of Mata Tores Book on Huichol Art into English, so there is no excuse if you don't speak fluent Spanish. Mike. "Wixa" may be slang for the name of the language, Mike. PS: look at the collections in the Museums before you dub the Huichol "Cuchuries" unique. Material Culture exists and is relevant to knowledge as an Encyclopedia is supposed to emboldy. Travel to New York go to the American Museum of Natural History and look at the "Lumholtz collection." Travel to Jesus Maria and look at the people. Stay with Roberta Sanchez, she will be happy to sell you cucuries, tlegas etc. The Huichol are part of a larger "Culture," which is resistant to Spanish colonization and culture and which employs bags instead of pocketes as part of their cultural identity. Ps: Both the Cora and Huichol practice polygamy at times. A man is allowed to have three wives but a woman only one husband. Men fight, is the excuse, women don't. It is a part of the "custumbre" the unrecorded culture and practices of the Indian tribes. Ask Augustine in San Miugel or Carlos Salavdor Diaz, or Rodrigo Salvador Diaz in the same location. They criticize the inhabitants of Casa De Los Lobos saying, "There are lots of children there, every man has two wives!" My Cora compadre, Timeoteo Diaz had three wives too. The practice is frowned upon by Christians. Mike Finerty

I don't understand what you are arguing, noone is contradicting you, not even the article. Noone is calling the design of the cuchuri bag unique, since it is obviously that case that most indigenous people of mexico use some kind of shoulderbag (morral).What the article says is that the decorations of the huichol cuchuries are special to them and that they are an important part of Huichol material culture. Something that I don't personally know anything about and which I haven't added to the article. If you believe it to be false please change it. Lumholtz is certainly a source that should be worked int the article whenever someone gets the time.Maunus 18:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you look at "Belts, Tortilla Cloths and Bags" in Mexican Indian Costumes by Donald and Dorothy Cordry (University of Texas Press, Austin and London, 1963) I am particularly taken by the Otomi bags (morales, which could be mistaken for Huichol "cuchuries") PP. 135-150. 2) There is much written, according to Socrates, that is not worth remembering. (See: the Phaedrus) Among the Indians of Mesoamerica, the custumbre is worth remembering, but it is not written down. How do you reference that?

I am not really interested in material culture of indigenous people and don't generally read or write about it, so I will disregard your suggestion. As for your second question: customs that are not written down cannot be referenced and so do not belong in an encyclopedia untill they are. Information in an encyclopedia must be reliable and therefore verifiable - in a scholarly context verifiable means verifiable by references to literature. If it is worth remembering, which I don't doubt that it is, then someone should research it and write the book about it. Then it gets in the encyclopedia. I suggest that you read the wikipedia guidelines for example What Wikipedia is Not and Wikipedia:What is a good article?. Then I look forward to seeing your contributions in the articles, you clearly have a good deal of literature handy and even better personal understanding of Huichol culture. Please do put it into the article so that it may benefit other people looking for that knowledge.Maunus 22:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Is a dead body verifiable? Philip True violated the Custombre by picking up pebbles in the Riverbed of the Chapalagana River, near Popotita. He was killed by Juan Chavera and Miguel Hernandez who thought he was prospecting for minerals. Huichol children learn in the Fiesta of the Tambor about the road to Wiexacuta (Real de Catorze) and the danger of being discovered by the Press Gangs who forced them into slavery in the mines. It is not written down, but lack of this knowledge cost Philip True his life. How do I reference it to save other lives? Mike

I think I have made it quite simple: You don't. Not on wikipedia at least. While anecdotes may be hlpful if and interesting they don't belong in an encyclopedia. Write your own book about it.Maunus 08:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 20:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)