Talk:Hugo Black

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Good article Hugo Black was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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/Log/2007 February 25



Hugo Black

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Contents

[edit] Racial equality etc

The phrase "maintained his commitment to racial equality" is not POV. It is something which is true or false. Do you have an encyclopedic source that states that Black was not committed to racial equality in the 1960s? The general opinion is that he was. My main objection is that you are calling things POV which really are not, even though I think most of your edits when you called the earlier text POV are OK. The latest edit again added redundant material to the article, about Korematsu, that did not make too much sense in relation to Harper, and removed accurate material (these --> this) concerning his philosophy, the topic of this section. So I am (mainly) reverting, with a little modification. John Z 19:08, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I disagree very strongly. The phrase "maintained his commitment to racial equality" is POV on several counts. First, it presumes that Black was "committed to racial equality" to begin with. That's a very dubious contention by any count for somebody who was a well known member of the KKK, and thus something that is POV to assert about Black. Perhaps in your _opinion_ he was "committed to racial equality" - but it's just that - an opinion. Others would look at the fact of his Klan membership, the Coyle trial, and other similar events and reach a very different conclusion. But let's assume for a moment you were right that Black was "committed to racial equality." The next question thus becomes "did he maintain that committment on the court?" Again, this is a POV assertion because there is considerable evidence that could go either way. On the one hand you have his vote in cases like Brown v. Board that are pro civil rights. On the other hand though there are cases like Korematsu (authored by Black), which is frequently compared to such other luminaries of "racial equality" as Plessy v. Ferguson and Dred Scott. Your request that I demonstrate "that Black was not committed to racial equality" is a request to prove a negative, which is logically impossible and thus may be disregarded. I'm accordingly restoring the material on NPOV grounds and ask that you consider maintaining a more neutral sense of wording when editing this article in the future. Thanks. Rangerdude 05:31, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude, I am not married to the phrase, its not mine, and I did not readd it - but do you honestly disagree that the general opinion is that Black was committed to racial equality in the 60's, which I weakened it to, and eliminates Korematsu? I could dig up such a phrase I am sure out of any biography of Black, I've read some, but don't happen to have one at hand. A (practically) universal opinion is not usually "a very dubious contention" nor POV. I didn't request you to prove a negative, just - out of curiosity - to provide a source that shared what apparently is your opinion, specifically concerning the 60s. If there are no encyclopedic sources sharing one's opinion, one runs the danger of inadvertently putting OR in also. Sure he was in the KKK. People change. The old joke about him, which should probably be in the article, is that "Hugo Black used to run around in white robes scaring black people. Now he runs around in black robes scaring white ones." I gave some other reasoning about flaws I saw in this edit; in general I just think you use the words POV too loosely - even when I think your edits are OK. These --> this makes little sense to me, as does repeating about Korematsu. I'll try to compromise, making these minor changes to your last edit. John Z 10:28, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The problem was not that it was weakened to the 1960's timeframe but that it was worded in such a way as to convey that Black maintained a committment to racial equality in the 1960's. This is POV because it assumes that he had a committment to racial equality before the 1960's as well that he was "maintaining," and as you know Black's civil rights history ESPECIALLY before the 1960's was very checkered. It's one thing to say that people change, but being a Klansman and author of a court opinion to imprison people just because they're Japanese are pretty big mistakes to overcome by any standard. Presenting Black as if he was some sort of hero and champion on civil rights when in fact his record - even on the court - is mixed at best trivializes those other sordid events in his career. I also don't see the basis for your objection to repeating Korematsu. It's only mentioned in the article twice with the edit and once without it. Korematsu is one of the most notable and infamous cases of the 20th century and arguably Black's most famous opinion. It's not as if the case's details are being restated in a redundancy. It's just being named in context of his decisions that are not seen as pro-civil rights. Rangerdude 15:57, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I think you should go back and read my edit that you are complaining about, and reverted, which I no longer put in the article, and which did not contain or imply "maintain" in any way. Thus your POV criticisms are misguided here at least, and as I said, you use the word too frequently. I think you greatly underappreciate the more important theoretical contribution of Black, his pushing of incorporation, which he basically and rightly imho won over the long haul, against quite a lot of criticism, much of it irrational and unjust (e.g. Fairman), and in the context of middle 20th century jurisprudence was a very major contribution to civil rights. Again, I think that this characterization, as well as him as more "liberal" than "conservative", as more pro than anti civil rights whatever these words mean is nothing but the general opinion, and opposing it should make one careful of doing original research. John Z 17:55, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction - The Klan

Why is the Klan mentioned in Black's introduction? It seems like an attempt to persuade readers to adopt a particular stance before reading the whole of the issue. It was never much of an issue and while the controversy over it should be included in the article (as it is since it has its own section dedicated to it), it's unclear why the introductory material that cites the most noteworthy of information about Black would include this info except as a smear.

Black was known for being a Supreme Court Justice and his theories on the law that defied the traditional wisdom of the time. He's not known for being a Klan member. It would be like writing an introductory paragraph on President Bush that basically said (in more words): "President George W. Bush was the 43rd President of the United States. The terrorist attack on the World Trade Center towers and the Iraqi War were two major issues he faced during his Presidency. Some have accused him of doing cocaine when he was young." I can't see how the introductory here is any different. Sure, it's relevant, but it's not so important as to deserve to be in the introduction and the fact that it is gives the impression that someone is trying to persuade you to adopt their POV. --Jakob Huneycutt 17:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Reading the rest of the article, it looks as if someone just went through and tried to insert as many sentences about the KKK as possible. Sure, his alleged involvement in the KKK became an issue during his life, but this article is a bit dishonest in trying to portray everything in his life as having something to do with the KKK (meanwhile, his important contributions to 20th century law get buried at the bottom). In the grand scheme of things, the involvement in the KKK was very minor and all indications seem to suggest it was a politically calculated move that didn't really reflect much on his beliefs, especially considering he was one of the pioneers as far as civil rights issues went. --Jakob Huneycutt 17:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The Klan is mentioned in the intro as it is a noteworthy and infamous event in Black's career. Nor is it simply "alleged" - Black's Klan membership was fully documented. It was also a major source of controversy during his own lifetime and caused a scandal after his supreme court nomination. Also, as the article documents, Black's committment to civil rights on the court was NOT as clear cut as some have suggested. He voted pro-civil rights on some cases but anti civil rights on others, such as Korematsu and the poll tax case. You may be a fan of Black, and that is fine, but NPOV dictates that we present Black with warts and all. Rangerdude 19:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The problem with the article is exactly that it lacks any shred of neutrality to it because of the insane amount of coverage to a minor controversy. Like I said, Black's membership in the KKK was an issue, but it was hardly like it predominated his career. Nor was it such a major issue that he was well known for it. It was a "controversy", one that was ultimately not ruinous to him and one that did not have that much of an affect on his career. Like I said, it would be like having an article about Bush and making sure to randomly insert mention of drug use and alcoholism every paragraph. Or an article about Clinton where someone randomly mentioned marital infidelity every paragraph. After all, we know Bush was an alcohol and we know Clinton cheated on his wife, so by your own logic, those articles should constantly mention those things in order to be NPOV, correct? --Jakob Huneycutt 13:44, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Btw, you might want to freshen up on Wikipedia policy on assuming good faith because I think your suggestion that I might be a "fan of Black" is borderline bad faith. NPOV dictates that facts about Black be presented. It does not dictate that we must give extensive overcoverage to a minor controversy in order to make it appear as if an issue dominated his entire life when the facts suggest otherwise. I have already stated the KKK controversy should be mentioned in the article; I don't think random insertions throughout the article attempting to imply a strong connection to the KKK should be in the article (comments such as, "Following his first marriage Black resumed his practice of law with an attorney who became head of the Ku Klux Klan in Alabama."). Comments such as that seem random (especially given his law practice was mentioned at the end of the paragraph before). --Jakob Huneycutt 13:52, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Jakob - Your assertion that the KKK stuff is a "minor controversy" is a POV in itself. Many people consider any politician's involvement whatsoever in the Ku Klux Klan to be a major controversy and Black was more than simply a member - he helped the group out during the Coyle murder trial by serving as their defense attorney. I would also add that Black's Klan affiliations were an issue in his political career from the early 1920's until his supreme court appointment in 1937 - hardly a "minor" one-time controversy in his career. I would also submit that your combative and hostile commentary are far more severe breaches of WP:FAITH than my statement "You may be a fan of Black, and that is fine." Also, if you believe the Klan stuff makes this article unbalanced, please take a moment to review Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Space_and_balance, which states "An article can be written in neutral language and yet omit important points of view. Such an article should be considered an NPOV work in progress, not an irredeemable piece of propaganda. Often an author presents one POV because it's the only one that he or she knows well. The remedy is to add to the article—not to subtract from it." (emphasis added). Rangerdude 19:33, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I just watched the PBS special on the SC last night. Maybe somebody wants to mention that if they saw it and edit articles here? Anyway, it treated the KKK thing as quite a significant controversy in Black's life. In fact, the radio address whereby Black explained himself was apparently the second most listened-to radio address ever up to that point, second only to the abdication of King Edward VIII of England. So that should be an indication that people did care about the issue quite a lot. ~Andy
Also, I noticed that the part of this article about the clan says it existed in "Alabama and a few Northern States." That implies that Alabama was the only Southern State which the KKK was in, which is obviously not true. Could someone change that? It would be more appropriate to say something like "Many Southern and a few Northern States." ~Andy
Ok, Andy here, finally registered. I'm changing this; "became a dominant force in Alabama politics as well as in several" to this; "became a dominant force in the politics of Alabama, as well as the politics of much of the rest of the South and several..." and then continuing on. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Y2robylaw (talk • contribs) 04:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Lord E.'s edits

[edit] Hugo Black edits

I appreciate Lord E.'s hard work on the Hugo Black article, but his edits have created some serious problems. First, the ordering of Black's beliefs as relating to specific provisions of the Bill of Rights as the actually appear in the Bill of Rights is completely arbitrary. Black's civil rights record needs to be treated separately in the article. Frankly, the old structure, which treated the issues in a sort of chronological order (civil rights first, then incorporation, then free speech during the McCarthy era, his rejection of "right of privacy" in the 1960s, etc.) was superior because Black's emphasis, if not his actual views, changed over time and also because the new structure is utterly arbitrary. I disagree strongly with some sections where Lord E. attempts to describe Black's record as inconsistent, incidentally; I don't think that it is true that his lack of support for extending the Fourth Amendment or "right of privacy" renders his jurisprudence less absolute than he claimed. And I don't agree with many of Lord E.'s deletions of content; for example, Chambers v. Florida was the first indication that this ex-Klansman was not actually racially prejudiced on the bench. I am not going to keep playing revert games, however, so a response is necessary. Please Don't BlockPlease Don't Block

I've responded on your talk page. Emsworth

[edit] Failed nomination

Because the comments I quote below caused the featured article nomination to fail (a nomination, I want to emphasize, in which I wasn't involved), they need to be dealt with before editing can proceed in earnest. Unfortunately, however, some of the objections to the nomination are simply wrong. Thus, I think it's important to tease out which of the objections are sensible and which miss the mark. The objections are in block quotes and my responses are labeled "response". Hydriotaphia 02:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

:*Any article about Hugo Black which does not mention Gideon v. Wainwright is only pretending to be his biography, he carried the day on no more important case on SCOTUS.

  • Response. Quite right. A discussion of Gideon should be added to the "Criminal procedure" subsection.

:*The discussion of federalism is incoherent because no one involved in writing the article understood the distinction between cases involving the reach of federal power, as in the Commerce Clause cases like Wickard, and cases involving federalism, the balance between federal and state power.

  • Response. It's pretty silly to say there's some deep difference between "the reach of federal power" and "the balance between federal and state power." Why? Well, as the reach of federal power expands, that power will, under the Supremacy Clause, preempt state legislation that is directly or even obliquely contrary. Moreover, the expansion of federal power means the expansion of that power into "traditionally" state-run areas of law. Indeed, "the balance between federal and state power" is a concern that underlies all recent Commerce Clause cases. In Lopez, for instance, the majority struck down the gun-possession statute in part because it dealt with a subject that was traditionally within the purview of the states. This goes for Morrison, too.

:*The commentary on incorporation is often incorrect, since the Sixth Amendment has not been incorporated unless cases like Apodaca v. Oregon which differentiate constitutional limits on state and federal criminal procedure were reversed without being noticed by the legal community.

  • Response. This objection is incoherently written, and I'm afraid I can't figure out what it's trying to say. Yes, the Sixth Amendment has not been incorporated jot-for-jot, as Apodaca shows. But it's wrong simply to say that "the Sixth Amendment has not been incorporated." Most of it, indeed almost all of it, has been incorporated (as Gideon shows). The right to a jury in criminal cases (Duncan v. Louisiana), the right to counsel (Gideon), the right to confront witnesses (Pointer v. Texas), the right to a speedy and public trial (Klopfer v. North Carolina)—all these provisions have been fully incorporated against the states.

:*The discussion of substantive due process is utterly inept and unsurprisingly cites no sources beyond quoting Black opinions on points they hardly support

  • Response. I certainly wouldn't say it's "utterly inept." It could perhaps be longer, but it accurately summarizes what substantive due process is and what Black's basic opinion on that doctrine was. Sources outside his (and the Court's) opinions, while helpful, are certainly not essential; his opinions very clearly expound his take on substantive due process. I'm also at a loss to understand exactly why the objector thinks the discussion of substantive due process is inept. It would be useful if the comment were a bit more specific.

:* Most of the discussion of Black's jurisprudence is forbidden original research, no legal commentaries are cited and the references are almost all general biographies, not technical works, instead the authors give their own interpretations of Court decisions and Justices' opinions

  • Response. Well, not really. If the discussion of Black's jurisprudence merely summarizes the clearly expressed views in Black's own opinions, that may be inadequate, but it is certainly not what the objector imperiously terms "forbidden original research." To put it differently, if the discussion of Black's jurisprudence is wanting, it is not because of "original research," but rather because the section only talks about Black's jurisprudence itself, and ignores scholarly views on that jurisprudence.

:* If "most members" of the Court rejected Black's view that defamation laws were unconstitutional for abridging "freedom of speech," how do the authors explain NY Times v Sullivan, where the Court gutted defamation laws as abridging freedoms of speech/press, Black's view generally shared, though most others not so absolutist as he was -- as in related areas.

  • Response. This objection is spot on. This needs to be changed. What must be emphasized is that during the heyday of the Warren court, while the Court often agreed with Black in its judgment, it did so through a non-absolutist route.

:*The idea that Black and Harlan were ideological opponents is ungodly silly, they had philosophical differences but shared core values

  • Response. Alas, it's this objection that's "ungodly silly." First, it's quite unclear what the objector means when he/she pronounces that Black and Harlan shared "core values"; a vaguer phrase is hard to imagine. What is clear, however, is that Black and Harlan did in fact rely on very different, and almost always opposing, modes of constitutional interpretation. While Black was an extreme textualist (famously carrying around the text of the Constitution at all times), Harlan used a much less text-bound method of interpretation that relied on, for example, a "flexible" notion of due process. And while Black was, due to his textualist commitments, quite willing to overrule past precedent, Harlan was not willing to do so; he, in contrast from Black, treated constitutional interpretation much like the common law—as something to which the doctrine of stare decisis is essential.

:*Black's contributions are discussed only to constitutional law, but he was influential in other important areas like antitrust law, which are ignored. Judge Magney

  • Response. This is quite right, but from a historical point of view any justice's contributions to constitutional law are more important than his or her contributions to a field of statutory law. Constitutional law is, for obvious reasons, more foundational than statutory law. Moreover, while statutes can be changed, and are often changed, through simple congressional enactment, the Constitution must go through the process laid out in Article V before it can be amended. The objector's basic point still stands, however; if Black made important and lasting contributions to an area of federal law, whether constitutional or not, those contributions must be discussed.

[edit] Term length

In the second paragraph it states "The second longest-serving justice in Supreme Court history, (after William O. Douglas)..." According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._Supreme_Court_Justices_by_time_in_office Black is the fourth longest serving Justice. (Anonymous User) June 3, 2006 Insert non-formatted text here

[edit] Incorporation

Hugo Black joined the decision Palko v. Connecticut that denied incorporation of protection against double jeopardy, so he later changed his mind and advocated incorporation of the entire Bill of Rights? WooyiTalk, Editor review 14:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Klan - "lifetime membership"

I was just reading a new paper on the economics of the 1920s Klan by Steven Levitt and Roland G. Fryer Jr, Hatred and Profits: Getting Under the Hood of the Ku Klux Klan which mentions:

In Alabama, it [the Klan] ended the career of veteran Senator Oscar Underwood, whom it denounced as the “Jew, jug, and Jesuit candidate,” and replaced him with Hugo Black, who accepted an engraved life membership in the KKK (Morison 1980).

The Morison reference is to: Morison, Samuel, Commager, Henry, and Leuchtenburg, William. The Growth of the American Republic. 1980. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

I hesitate to include the "lifetime membership" bit in the article without having run down and reviewed that citation, which I know I won't have time to do. If anyone else has the time, have at it... Studerby 22:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Sweeps (on hold)

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.

1) This article needs better citations. I put appropriate tugs throughout it.

2) Wikilinks for non-existant articles (which are red) should be removed.

I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, Ruslik 07:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Since nobody seems to be interested in this article I will delist it. Ruslik 08:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arthur Schlesinger

He is noted as the author of one of the references. There is a wiki link, but it leads to a disambiguation page, and I don't know if this is Jr. or Sr. This needs to be fixed. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 18:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC) Stan

Jr. wrote it. Fixed in the article. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC) Stan

[edit] Wiki link to First Amendment of U.S. Constitution

I put it into the article at its first appearance in the body. There is a second appearance which also has a wiki link, and I am not sure whether it should be left there. Just calling the issue to your attention. I know that there are a lot of people who have worked on this article, and I am trying to be respectful of your viewpoints. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC) Stan