Talk:How Sacred Harp music is sung

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There is in reality a great deal of individual and regional variation in matters of practice. This article goes beyond its purpose of attempting to point out some of the regional peculiarities of Sacred Harp practice: It seems to be advocating only one specific way as 'correct.' Although the author's contentions that SOME "traditional singers" unconsciously raise sixths, etc., are likely correct, that should not be a prescriptive.

I think this article would be more balanced if it left out the stylistic judgments, and in fact the whole idea of addressing new singers, and just stuck to a few broad observations.

Amity150 23:42, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to Amity150 for pointing out the possibility that the article could be interpreted as advocacy. This certainly was not my original intention, but one should err on the side of caution here. Therefore, I've rewritten all the passages I could find that risked being interpreted as advocacy.

The article still describes the issues involving newcomer singers, since I feel that they are an important aspect of contemporary Sacred Harp singing. I've put this material lower on the page and in a way that, I hope, makes no value judgments.

A final note: based on earlier drafts of Amity150's reply, I'm concerned that (s)he may have arrived at the impression that newcomer singers try to mimic Southern accents and voice quality. As far as I am aware, this is not so; such practices would be considered bad form among the newcomer singers whom I know.

Opus33 17:42, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Opus33. I appreciate your changes. Here is the reason I asked for the change: If one asks "traditional singers" whether, for example, they raise the sixth in minor songs, the invariable answer will be a bewildered "no," "I don't know," or "It doesn't matter." So by focusing on a quirk that it takes a musicologist to appreciate or understand, we are making SH into a musicological curiosity, an object of study, and introducing new values that are alien. It just seems very off-topic, rather like reading an article on William Shakespeare and finding a link to an article on how to affect a British accent. Meanwhile, there is nowhere any indication of how Sacred Harp is practiced that might give new singing groups elsewhere an idea how to get started on their own, covering leading, organization, etc. That is actually what I expected to find when I followed the link to this article, and I think it would be valuable to someone learning about Sacred Harp for the first time and hoping for info on how to sing Sacred Harp. Amity150 08:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello Amity,

Please do remember that the Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, with the goal of complete coverage of all factual areas. In the area of musicology, we already have a great number of articles, and it would hardly make sense to exclude Sacred Harp, an important musical genre, from musicological discussion in these pages.

I agree with you that material on:

"how Sacred Harp is practiced that might give new singing groups elsewhere an idea how to get started on their own, covering leading, organization, etc."

would be a useful addition, perhaps entitled How Sacred Harp singings are organized? As the Sacred Harp article already says, the Denson edition contains useful material that could be mined for such an article.

Opus33 17:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Postscript, same day:

Might I add that your claim

"the invariable answer will be a bewildered "no," "I don't know," or "It doesn't matter."

seems a bit hasty to me? If you'll look at the links I included in the article, or for that matter at the introduction to the Denson edition, you'll see that it's simply not true that all traditional singers are indifferent to the details of musical expression. Given your hypothetical question ("Do you raise the sixth in minor tunes?"), some traditional singers will reply "Yes, always" or will even help to teach you how to do it. You shouldn't assume that an interest in the details of singing is confined to musicologists; I think this underestimates the flexibility and power of the Sacred Harp tradition.

Thanks for listening, Opus33 05:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Opus, would you consider at least putting in a qualifier that in reality you are talking about certain parts of Alabama and perhaps Georgia, and maybe nowhere else? I have transcribed every single song in the SH using Melody Assistant software, and Karen Willard herself made the changes to minors to reflect the dorian-aeolian controversy. When I play those songs sometimes the raised sixth does sound to me like what we are singing where I live (which is still mostly "traditional singers") and often not. When I went to Alabama to sing I thought I did hear a difference on some songs compared to how they are sung in Texas. In general here I don't hear new singers who can read lines and spaces (which I cannot) singing anything different from people who learned to sing as children, and I don't hear any dissonance on the sixths. I even have a book where I noted the sixths on many often-sung minors to test out this theory, and never noted anything unusual when they were sung. One does not need to make such a study of this if one simply sings what they hear other people around them singing, and this no doubt varies from region to region. Plus it is a theory that facilitates arguments between singers outside the south (I hope in the south we still just "shut up and sing!"). It seems an attempt to make an art into a science. Some "traditional singers" may have been absorbed into this raised-sixth doctrine themselves after hearing musicologists discuss it, but it seems nonetheless a tempest in a teapot. The beautiful thing about traditions is that invariably they evolve over time and present regional and individual variations. So basically I think you have improved this article, but I am still uncomfortable with the whole discussion. If some prospective new singer is going to read a couple thousand words about Sacred Harp I don't think I would include this, but leave it for down the line.... waaaay down the line. And yes, I will try to add other articles about Sacred Harp as I can, too, realizing that someone is going to come along and edit them, as well!  ;) Amity150 19:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

addendum: Consider whether new singers are going to be able to read lines and spaces well enough to even pick out the sixths to raise! Are we limiting new singers to those who can already effectively read music the conventional way? Even traditional singers are usually a little inhibited by this and can't demonstrate this principle if asked.

Hello Amity - So you're the Amity who made the Melody Assistant Website!!! Say, that's a really great resource and I appreciate your having done it.

I try not to edit during the work-week, but I promise a longer reply for you on the weekend addressing the issues at hand. Yours very truly, Opus33 22:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello Amity - Ok, I've tried to make it more accurate. If you can take a look and tell me what you think I would appreciate it. I am particularly struck by your own testimony that the sixths that you raise are not the same as the sixths that Karen Willard raises.

On a couple other points you made:

--On the question of whether visitors to a traditional singing should just "sing what they hear other people around them singing", I agree. I would see this as a matter of courtesy, as well as avoiding clashing notes.

--However, when a group consists entirely of newcomer singers, then there really is a question of what to do. I think that raising the sixth consistently may be the best way to avoid wasting time on tedious discussions (You used the phrase "shut up and sing" -- and I agree completely!). I think that the Denson edition, by recommending a consistent practice, does indeed help newcomers to shut up and sing.

--Lastly, the article is pretty clearly not meant for "prospective new singers", but only for people who are curious about these matters. That's why I put it in a separate article, and not as part of the main article Sacred Harp. Your Melody Assistant site, which is now an External Link, would clearly be more helpful for actual teaching purposes.

Yours very truly, Opus33 23:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Opus Amity150 00:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)