Talk:House of Kosača

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[edit] Serb?

Well, I can put a pile of Serbian websites, historians, blah, blah - but that's not really that important. Aside from the fact that official Serbian historiography considers them Serbs (I draw - Kotromanics, for instance, are not Serbs according to the very same research data - they are Serbian, strictly from a political-titular side of view (Tvrtko's assertion of the Serbian crown - Kotromanics inheriting Serbian statehood)).

Since the concept of "nationality" is pretty weird when we talk about the Medieval times, especially in nearly homogeneous part of the world like the Serbo-Croat lands, I tend to use regional homeland (and that of origin, if precisely known - the exception is that for instance the House of Mrnjavcevic is from the Croatian Banate, but I yet need to do a little more research to confirm that their origin indeed is Croatian, considering that they were Orthodox Christians early on), political affiliation and religion. For instance - the Kosacas are a family that is from the Serbian Land (then, the monarchy-in-question's core). The Kosacas were never a wealthy family, but they blossomed in the Serbian Empire fighting for the conquest of the Balkan peninsular alongside Emperor Dusan. On of the first instances of conflicts (the only known thing they did in their early past, as Serbian nobility) is the hunting accident with the Rastislalics. Amongst the Serbian nobility, it was a standard procedure to regularly go on hunting. There was an accident while the Kosacas were hunting together with the Rastislalics (in northeast Serbia; they were the nobility of Branicevo). After this, the Kosacas remained (mainly) Orthodox Serbs. The center of the Kosacas' feudal state was the monastery of Mileseva, and they separated Herzegovina from Bosnia, creating the "Duchy of Saint Sava"; and at several occasions fought against the Franciscans who worked on keeping Catholicism alive in Bosnia (the Kosaca's would, although, eventually fail in that). --PaxEquilibrium 00:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

For instance, Herzegovinian Duke Stephen of Saint Abbas was known as a very pious adherent of the Serbian Orthodox Church (note: "Orthodox Christian" does not mean "Serb", but the axiom "Orthodox Serb"=Serb is mostly used (and, when I check other factors, I agree with it). I hope my explanation helped. Cheers. --PaxEquilibrium 01:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for poorly written words - I was writing this in a manner of seconds... There are exceptions, of course - Catherine was a very pious Christian, and even in a "national feeling" to call it, "Croat". --PaxEquilibrium 01:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

One of the biggest endowments to the Serbian Orthodox Church of Stephen Vukcic is the Orthodox Savina monastery in the Bay of Kotor (near Herceg-Novi), although the western Gothic style is easily recognizable.
The best comparison to the "Serbian" Bosnian (hmm, Herzegovinian?) Kosacas are the Hrvatins, the (western) Bosnian-Croatian dynasty which is not "Croat" only to the blind. The other dynasties (centered around the Kotromanics) are completely ambiguous... except perhaps for the Sankovics, who were Orthodox Serbs too (there are also exceptions among the minor dynasties that might be "Croat" or "Serb", but these are numerous minor exceptions...) --PaxEquilibrium 01:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If memory serves me well, it was claimed that Stephen was a Bogomil (however, this is unfounded, I believe). Now, what's the reason to put these under "Croatian nobility"? Is it because of Catherine, or...? --PaxEquilibrium 02:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. You really didn't need to provide all this info just for little old me. Just try to include some of this stuff in the article. A nice blurb about why exactly they are considered Serbs will go a long way towards preventing an edit war later on with some less reasonable people. ;D --Thewanderer 20:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I don't want you to think of me as POV-pusher or internet troll for starters. :)
I'll be taking a short pause - so could you start working on the Kosacas? --PaxEquilibrium 11:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Aside from these, the Kosaca's descendants remained alive throughout the 16th century, and they were all Serbs, in the wake of "national awakening". One of the most notable was Bozhidar Vukovich, the first (and only early) Serbian printer. He first worked in the late 15th century in Zeta (the "Obod") and then continued to print Serbian texts in Venice throughout the 16th century. I think he's the last famous Kosaca, although I heard rumors of a Serbian general from the Serbo-Turkish wars... just can't really put my hand on it... --PaxEquilibrium 17:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs sources/references

If you state that Kosača family were Serbian Orthodox nobles from Bosnia, could you please add the sources and references to this statement? I am perfectly aware of the fluidity of religion in the medieval Bosnia, but I think nominally most of the nobility were Catholics. Certainly, Tvrtko II professed that he was a Catholic, although the evidence shows that Bosnian Church thrived during his rain. I would think that Kosača's, like most nobility in that part of the world adhered to various faiths depending on who was in charge in the area, in order to retain their lands and status. -- Benjamin 20070509 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.144.18.254 (talk) 14:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

The Kosacas rulers were Dukes of Saint Abbas. The greatest endowment of the Kosacas is the Serbian Orthodox Savina monastery in Herceg-Novi. They came from Serbia. You forget that the Kosacas were not in Bosnia (by their own estate), but in Herzegovina.
Also most Bosnian nobility weren't Catholics. Yes, most Kotromanics (the ruling family) were Roman Catholic (but they themselves had Orthodox or pro-Bogomil individuals), but most of the middle-class nobility were AFAIK Bosnian Bogomils. But some were Serbian Orthodox too; the Kosacas, the Sankovics, the Pavlovics... and the many minor ones (Vlatkovic, Zlatonosic, Nikolic, Crepovic, Dinjicic, Ljubibratic...). --PaxEquilibrium 16:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I have no intention debating their religious aligance. My original comment was to state the source of the statement, which is in line with Wikipedia's rules and policies. Even if the sources were one-sided, e.g. from Serb nationalists, you should include them until someone else can produce the evidence to the contrary. Otherwise, articles will not carry much credibility.
Secondly, there was no Hercegovina at that time, since the name was given much later. The medieval county was simply called Bosnia and people who lived at the time in what is today's Hercegovina, were also called Bosnians or Humljani or Venetians or whoever ruled them at the time. -- Benjamin 20070510 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.144.18.254 (talk) 10:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
I hardly doubt they were "Bosnians" really. Anyway, the sources are Vladimir Corovic's "History of the Serb People", Ferdo Sisic's "History of Croats" and Fine's History. --PaxEquilibrium 13:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)