Talk:House Lannister

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[edit] Family tree

Hey - has anyone noticed that Cersei is similar in name/actions to Circe from Homer's The Odyssey? I wonder if maybe someone should put in that it seems like this epic fantasy novel is tipping its hat to the father of all epic fantasy.

User:145.12.10.1, thank you for getting this page into the right direction. (I can see that you have done similar things to the other houses.) Keep up the good work. Could I ask you to change the family tree into something that can be edited, like the tree on House Lannister? Images are good, but ASCII (though ugly) is better for Wikipedia because it can be edited and re-used. For example, Kevan in no Kevin.

I have some quibbles with your tree. For example, as far as I know, we don't know the relationship between the Grey Lion and Tybolt. I tried to hunt down that specific relationship earlier for a family tree I did myself, and found no textual evidence either way. But my guess was that there was at least one generation between the two. (That's speculation.) Could you give a reference? The same goes for the long list of Kings of Winter in the Stark tree.

I would also like your input on the discussion about what she should ultimately aim for with Song-related material on Wikipedia on Talk:List of characters in A Song of Ice and Fire.

Thore 08:41, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hé Thore, I am not really thrilled by the idea of a family tree in ASCI. It just looks terrible. On the other hand the idea of wikipedia is that people can adjust the work of others. I´ll look for another format. The original picture was made in I-grafix but I dont´think many people know that. About the relationship between Tybolt and Ser Damon ´The Grey Lion`: in the heraldry of the hedge knight Ser Damon is called Lord of Casterly Rock and Ser Tybolt heir of Casterly Rock. Ofcourse Ser Tybolt could be an nephew or cousin instead of a son, but I think it "was a logical guess. About the Starks Lords (instead of the Stark Kings) you´re right: in the books it is explicitly stated that an exact order can´t be made but it is also stated that the order mentioned is more or less fitting. I made 1 adjustment: the dragon knight said Cregan Stark was the best swordsmen he ever met. Because the dragon knigt lived 120? years before the books and Cregan is the first lord mentionned from past to present and the 10th form present to pas so this seems unlikely so I changed it --Scafloc 00:51, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Scafloc, you really should be very careful about "guessing" on Wikipedia, even logically. This site has quite a lot of respectability, and there are harsh standards for accountability of information. If in doubt, leave it out. (Actually, I was more concerned with the relationship of Tybolt and Tytos; that's what I should have written. I am pretty sure we don't know that.) As to ASCII, it's the way to go. My own House Targaryen tree has been edited and moved and cut up several times, always to its improvement. But I do feel your pain! On my own machine, I have some really, really beautiful family trees of all the houses, made in pretty professional software, but such things simply don't work very well for Wikipedia. Information trumps beauty every time. Thore 08:41, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thore, I think guessing is for some part inevitable. For example, I can't remember that somewhere in the books it is stated that queen Alysanne and king Jaehaerys the Concilliator were sister and brother. Never the less in your family tree of House Targaryen you made the relation and I think it is a correct one (although she could have been a daughter of Maegor). I did search a bit for some kind of editor easily accessible with more layout possibilities but could not find something so I will change the jpg's of the houses in ASCII. --Scafloc 11:19, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)


Isn't the family tree incorrect as Jamie was his sister's kids father, not King Robert?--63.82.34.140 20:54, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

It's really a question about what POV you take on this matter. (A related question pertains to Jon Snow's parentage.) The family relationships listed in the appendices are factually wrong as well. The tree given here denotes the accepted truth in Westeros, and I think that is the most useful for people who come here. (There's the related issue of deciding at what time Wikipedia information is "true". What is the marital status of Robb, for example?) The best tree we have so far is as House Targaryen, which identifies the disputed parentages. I quite like that, and would prefer to have the Lannister children treated similarly. If you have a suggestion how such issues are best handled, then we're all ears. Arbor 21:18, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Revision

I'm currently in the process of revising the entire article. There's a lot here that tends toward plot summary and fancruft, neither of which seems appropriate for a character page on Wiki. If you have comments or concerns, please let me know. Brendan 22:45, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Lannisters as literary devices

This section needs some work to turn it from fan analysis to useful encyclopedic resource; if that can't be managed, I'd support deleting it altogether. As it stands, it's full of shady terms like "can be said" and "have tended to be" that obscure the fact that it's a rather POV commentary. Reference to critical reviews by notable sources is probably the best way to make this into a desirable addition to the article. Comments are welcome. Brendan 21:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. The section violates WP:NOR and WP:V. Arbor 09:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What happened to the Images that were here?

There were images of the main characters, properly attributed to www.amoka.net. Where did they go? Did the artist ask for them to be removed? They made this wiki extra special ... or were they "fancruft" as you mentioned? I suppose they could be considered such. But then, the last comment on this was nearly a year ago and the images where there just a few weeks ago. --Soshan 22:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't fall under the terms of use that Amok set down for his images. There's a discussion about this on the discussion page for the "Song of Ice and Fire" Wikiproject. Amok's images have been removed from all wikipedia pages. -Captain Crawdad 22:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV characters

Added POV tag to Cersei and Jaime as they are both POV characters. El Jorge 20:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Bias?

"Her mental degeneration also saw the formation of a lesbian relationship with a dubious courtier of the Tyrells' and the development of alcoholism, a trait shared by her late husband Robert."

While I agree that the choice of lovers was unwise, as written the above sentence seems to be connecting the moral degeneration with the lesbian nature of the relationship. The medieval society of Westeros may well view this to be true, but I don't think it's appropriate in the modern age on Wikipedia. 134.82.97.14 20:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

While I don't think the phrasing reflected bias, I've altered it as well as other aspects of the section, which seemed too inclined to cast judgments on Cersei; that's not the purpose of the encyclopedia. Brendan Moody 21:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tyrion as favorite character

I know that a lot of fans like Tyrion; it may well be true that he's the general favorite. However, the standard for including material in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. I'm not convinced that it's possible to come up with an acceptable source indicating that Tyrion is a fan favorite. But I might be wrong. If anyone knows of such a source (quotes from message boards or fan sites are not useful in this regard), provide information about it here and I'll turn it into a reference. Best, Brendan Moody (talk) 15:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Could the poll on the miniatures and George´s reply to that count here? (Tyrion got a whooping a majority of the votes) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.230.28 (talk) 00:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The thing about a poll like that is that captures a particular cross-section of the audience; it's not about what fans in general are thinking, it's about what internet-literate people who follow GRRM's LiveJournal and choose to vote are thinking. On top of that, GRRM even says "Please... if you have no interest in miniatures, do not vote. This is not a "who is your favorite character?" poll. This is a "which miniature do you want?" poll." Obviously Tyrion's general popularity as a character still has something to do with his win, but I'm not convinced it's enough. I'm curious what anyone else following this discussion might think, though. Best, Brendan Moody (talk) 01:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)