Talk:House Bolton

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[edit] Harrenhal

He took Harrenhal while Jaime Lannister was a prisoner there. Is this really true? If I'm not utterly mistaken then at the time Jaime was brought to Harrenhal (as a captive of the Brave Companions), Bolton already was there for quite some time.

I believe you're right. Jaime's hand was chopped off before he got to Harrenhal, and Vargo did it as a move against Roose. -Captain Crawdad 22:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this page necessary?

It seems like this page exists only through anticipation that the Boltons will become more important in future books of the series. As it stands now, I don't think Bolton is important enough to warrent its own house page. -Captain Crawdad 00:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

  • I concur, especially as there is only one member of note. VoiceOfReason 00:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
    • They've been vital in pushing the story along thus far and have some backstory that wouldn't fit well in any other article. Martin has all but said that we're going inside the Dreadfort next book. It might have been better to wait, but as it is, the article fulfills an important piece of ASOIAF information that would not fit anywhere else. Stilgar135 00:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
      • I still disagree, but if this page has to exist, then fine. But please, Cybroleach, if you're going to force this article upon us, could you spellcheck your edits? The quality is atrocious. Also, I could be wrong, but I believe Lord Bolton's son's name is Ramsay, not Ramsey. VoiceOfReason 00:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't see any need for a separate page either; the two members who are even remotely important at present can be dealt with at character pages. In a work of this size, there are more characters who push the story along than can get separate pages. I'd like to see evidence that a fair sized encyclopedic article can be written now (as opposed to "may be possible after the next book," which is too speculative). Otherwise, I think a merge or redirect is in order. Brendan Moody 01:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
  • 'In a work of this size, there are more characters who push the story along than can get separate pages'

Why not? Wheel of Time is a bit more than twice as big as ASOIAF, less critically acclaimed, and has 81 character pages. ASOIAF has two. Spreading information out doesn't hurt. We could move this to Characters from A Song of Ice and Fire and House Stark but the former is already a big, overburdened page and would suffer from not having the information about the Bolton/Stark relationship. Meanwhile, said relationship is far more twisted and important than that between the Starks and any of their other vassals, so it makes more sense to have its own page. The Boltons may not be as important a house as the Starks or Lannisters, but they're far more important than the Karstarks or Umbers or the thousand other vassals. Stilgar135 01:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

    • The Wheel of Time pages are hopelessly bloated, in my opinion; you could turn those 81 into 5 or 10 without making them overlong, and they'd probably be better for it. (If I remembered more about the series, I would look into doing so.) It's worth taking a look at the fiction guideline if you haven't lately. Obviously we're already stretching that. Lots of pages can be daunting for someone seeking an overview. If you have a page for the Boltons, why not the Karstarks (there are more of them in the narrative than there are Boltons, and they too are part of Robb's downfall) or the Stokeworths (they're big in Feast plus we could move Bronn there!) or the Paynes (Pod and Ser Ilyn) or the Tarths? Because that's just too much information. The Boltons are more notable than a lot of names, but I still don't think it's enough to warrant an article. The Bolton/Stark history is easily summarized in a discussion of Roose, if it's even worth mentioning; it's informative background, but far from vital. (We could also move the Boltons to the pre-existing "Houses sworn to" section of House Stark and mention the complex relationship there.) I'm just saying that I generally prefer a high degree of selectivity and combination, because of the potential for a slippery slope problem where anything gets in, and the fact that there are fansites for the nitty-gritty. Obviously if there's a consensus to keep this page, I'll accept that. Brendan Moody 02:22, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Obviously I too will abide by consensus, but it looks as if we have completely opposed Wikipedia philosophies. Better to allow 10 pages of crap than delete one good page, and all that. To address specific points: correct me if I'm wrong, but the oldest Karstark went crazy and tried to kill Jaime because he was mad with grief; this is important but localized. The Bolton's betrayal was fundamentally different because it shows the wider political processes of Westeros and Martin's love of Machievellian plotting. Pod and Ilyn are both important, but neither were vital parts of a larger, multi-book storyline. We've only met one Tarth, and she's not important because of her house's position. And I've always believed that the more Bronn out there, the better off we all are. What a great guy. Stilgar135 02:44, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
      • The point of my examples was not that I wanted a debate over the relevance of each but that there's a lot that one person or another will consider vital; we all come to a work of this size with unique perspectives on what drives the story and is worth focusing on. (I personally think that none of the names I mentioned are as important as the Boltons, and that the Boltons themselves are not as important as you suggest.) My preferred method of dealing with this multiplicity of perspectives is to limit the articles to the few topics whose importance is indisputable, which I think also keeps the accessibility of the content high for those readers who don't already possess our detailed knowledge. (If we were the only resource on these topics, I'd feel differently, but anything we delete will be available on Tower of the Hand or Westeros.org, which are not difficult to find.) Others will prefer hashing it out on a case-by-case basis. We'll meet in the middle somewhere. Brendan Moody 03:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Another thing: how do we feel about the members section headers saying "(housename)s in A Song of Ice and Fire" vs. "Current (housename)s"? I prefer the former, which is what we've had to date, because "current" is ambiguous (current as of the beginning of the series? the latest book? the recent history that plays into the narrative?), but Cybroleach has been introducing the latter into the articles. It's a minor point, I know. Brendan Moody 03:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Compromise (I hope): Start a Minor Houses of A Song of Ice and Fire or thereabouts. Move the info about their history there, as well as the key points there. Move complete Roose and Ramsey bios to minor characters. However, I think this particular article should be kept around for 2 reasons:

1. Simply put, it's a good idea to centralize information. Somebody who's reading minor houses and wants to read about Roose and Ramsey will find it easier and more intuitive to go to a House Bolton entry than a minor characters entry.

2. From all indications, the Boltons will be major players in ADWD (I think Martin saying that a Theon is coming back is better than mere "speculation"). Every major Westerosi institution that's had a POV centered on it (major houses, Night's Watch, Citadel) has an article. It seems pointless to get rid of this now and bring it back a year later. I think that "current" is both too ambigious and potentially spoilerific. The former may be more verbose, but it's also more exact and less troublesome. Stilgar135 04:25, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

A difficult situation, since House Bolton are critically important to the storyline, have had a major impact in both the second and third books in the series and are currently the Ruling House of the North, which makes them in political terms within the context of the series as important as the Lannisters, Tyrells, Arryns, Martells or Greyjoys. OTOH, there's not a vast amount of information out there. I've redone some information on the page with references to the CCG and RPG where more information about them is revealed. However, Brendan Moody is correct in stating that we cannot base the decision to keep the page or not on what may or may not be revealed in a future novel in the sequence. My vote is to KEEP this page, but also to possibly consider a Minor Houses article for the Karstarks, Umbers, Florents, Rowans, Redwynes etc. The only houses with their own pages should be the 'nine big ones', the Freys and Boltons, with possible future exceptions for families like the Hightowers or Daynes if they come to play a larger role in the future books (but certainly not as of now).--Werthead 12:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

On a related note, I think it may be of value to include details on the strongholds and castles of the major families and other notable houses. I see two possibilities: to either create a new Strongholds of A Song of Ice and Fire page, or to include information on the Dreadfort on the Bolton page, Highgarden on the Tyrell page, Sunspear on the Martell page and so on. Thoughts, anyone?--Werthead 12:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm behind Brendan Moody 100% on this: it needs to go. Right now we just don't have enough material for a stand alone Bolton page and what we have needs to be cleaned up (even more) anyway. Every thing covered here can be done just as easily on the Characters page and then we don't have a navigational issue nor do we start down the slippery slope of turning into a stub ridden disaster like the Wheel of Time pages have. Alot of people have worked hard to keep these pages lean, mean, readable and easily navigatble and this is a step in the wrong direction. I also added the merge template.
Wert, If you think that you have enough material to start a page on "Strongholds" than go for it. I'm not really seeing that happening but if you think so more power to you. Just try to keep in mind what would be better covered in Organizations, Houses, Wars and the main Westeros pages. After that if you still have a page worth of material that's not redundant that would be a great idea. NeoFreak 01:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I definitely think there's enough material for a seperate Strongholds of a Song of Ice and Fire page, although working out what's not been covered already could be time-consuming. Is there a great taboo on repeating information from other pages? For example, Winterfell and King's Landing would be important locations on a 'Strongholds' page but they are already covered on the general ASoIaF page. Or could more detailed information be supplied on a 'Strongholds' page and the information on the general page reduced to a brief overview and possible link to a Strongholds page? I don't want to tread on any toes here.
I'm still for keeping the House Bolton page simply because their impact on the storyline has been greater, arguably, than several the bigger houses to date (notably the Arryns). However, the information could certainly be circulated among smaller pages.
I also like the idea for a 'Minor Houses of ASoIaF' page, but I see the existing 'Houses' page is up for deletion and am concerned that an exhaustive 'Minor Houses' page would have to cover all 150+ smaller houses for the sake of completeness, but at the same time would be crossing the line of fancruft.--Werthead 12:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Don't worry about stepping on people's toes. Any edits can always be changed, merged or reverted so go for it. Better to make a bad edit and have it changed than not make a good edit because you're afraid it's not any good. Just try to avoid creating stubs and over doing it on the individual pages or fancruft. I think your point on Bolton's impact is valid but I would make the point that it is Roose and to a much lesser degree Ramsey as characters that are making the impact and not House Bolton as an institution. All the other Houes covered with their own page have a major political, econonic, cultural and military impact on not just the region they govern but the rest of the Seven Kingdoms as well in addition to having complex family trees that Bolton lacks. If House Bolton comes out a the major player in the North and eclipses the Starks later in the series then the issue might need to be revisted but that's just speculation for the moment. This is the same reason I oppose a "Minor Houses" Page at the moment. There is so much that needs to be done on the characters page that we should be focusing on making that one complete before starting on others. Why don't you try to create a "Strongholds" page in your sandbox if you need to get the info and format down but are not yet sure of it's place or the way you want it to fit with the rest of the pages? Check out the new ASOIAF wikiproject too! NeoFreak 13:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'd take the line that, for now, Roose and Ramsey are House Bolton, but then I suppose the counter-argument would be in that case the House Bolton info could go into their character bios. So, even stevens I think. Certainly the Boltons, as the Starks' bitter enemies for several thousand years, have had far more of a cultural impact on the North than say the Umbers or Karstarks. So I maintain the KEEP position, but at the same time it's not exactly a critical issue IMO. If large numbers of people are for deleting it, then sure. Btw, I created a Strongholds of A Song of Ice and Fire entry and it looks promising, but I probably went a little bit overboard on detail (particularly with the minor castles where the only things we know about them are location and name of the occupying house). Any feedback there would be appreciated.--Werthead 16:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Seems like i created a lot of problems here, and ill take the time to say sorry although the Five pillar thing emphasise Boldness. To defend my creation of the House Bolton i would like to point out that their members while few, are major players in ASOIAF, are of a status with house Frey, and are featured more than Houses Martell and Arryn. And their new status as that of Wardens of the North makes them one of the great houses of Westeros. I thought the goal of this was to make elaborate encyclopedia of pages that link together and mention all the smaller details of ASOIAF to be accessable to new readers, forgetful ones and interested parties. And its just one mans opinion but smaller well organized pages read easier than huge collosal ones such as the Character page that isnt anywhere near done. --Cybroleach 20:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)Cybroleach

[edit] Informal vote on Merge

I want to see were everyone is so we can deal with the issue once and for all. Options: Merge, keep, delete. Let's keep this open until say the 3rd of August?

  • Merge NeoFreak 19:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge an abridged form with House Stark and redirect there. Brendan Moody 19:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge. Arbor 19:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • keep. Stilgar135 01:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge back into Characters from A Song of Ice and Fire where it belongs. By the way, I'm unhappy seeing talk about what Martin has said regarding the future of the series; such information constitutes spoilers in a way that other information does not. I avoid spoilers for material I haven't read yet. I've had no problem looking at these pages because I've read all of the ASoIaF books multiple times, but when you start talking about information for books that aren't even out yet, you're spoiling things that I'd prefer not to see spoiled, and which I do not believe are covered by the standard spoiler disclaimer.

VoiceOfReason 04:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

  • keep obvously.--Cybroleach 20:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC) Cybroleach
  • Keep, definitely. I see little to be gained by deleting it, save dispersing information of value to the casual reader through lots of other pages where it will not be found as easily. @ VoR, I understand your concern, but GRRM has often 'said' things and then discarded them. So whilst they are spoilers, they are sometimes spoilers for things that do not come to pass (such as the "Five-Year Gap.")--Werthead 22:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge. --Scafloc 07:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Even though Boltons aren't technically important, they did alot in the book's story line capturing(killing?) Theon and getting all the iron islands putting Crows Eye in charge and maybe allying with the Targaryens. Then they killed Robb and Catelyn, govong Stannis a place to try and rule. HTeyre like a a smaller gear in the clock.--AeomMai 22:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well it's a pretty narrow win for the merge. Nobody here is an admin (and I hope we can keep it that way) and this isn't a formal vote so if the ones that are so eager to keep it want to work on it and expand it then very well. I'm not going to merge it myself but if somebdy else does I support that 100%. That's just how I feel. NeoFreak 23:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this discussion highlighted a problem with ASoIaF as compared to other series. Namely that the existence of the highly structured Houses/families hierarchy means we end up in danger of repeating information, since discussion of the Houses involves talking about the characters who are members of those houses, which dovetails into discussions of the Houses' strongholds etc. We should be wary of this problem (note the ASoIaF RPG rulebook actually pointlessly repeats information several times due to this). I am still in favour of the existence of the House Bolton page but agree that it highlights this problem more than other pages.--Werthead 22:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correction

Roose's new wife, Fat Walda Frey, is Walder's granddaughter, not his daughter. Schoop 20:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)Schoop

[edit] The Red Wedding

Several time now while reading through pages about GRRM ASOIAF I've run across the statement that Roose Bolton was personally responsible for killing Robb Stark.

"Finally, he helped plan the Red Wedding, personally murdering King Robb after passing along Jaime's words."

I don't remember anything like that and I've gone back several times and re-read that moment. First it says that Roose Bolton had left a while back before the killing starts no doubt to prepare for the assault

Roose Bolton murmured some words too soft to hear and went off in search fo a a privy...

then near the end of the chapter when Robb Stark is murdered all it says that A man in dark armor and pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jamie Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

It doesn't says that Roose Bolton killed him, and has Roose Bolton ever worn a pink cloak?

anyway, thats just my 2 cents and I was just wondering how anybody made the leap to the idea that Roose Bolton personally slew Robb Stark.

Theisman 14:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

When Bolton released Jaime, Jaime asked him (in irony) to give Robb Stark his regards. Bolton replied that we would do that. So that is why Roose Bolton is seen as the killer. But of course it could be one of his hanchman.Scafloc 14:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it was Bolton's captain, Walton "Steelshanks", who killed Robb Stark at the wedding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.100.212.21 (talk) 09:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)